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Rau
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I rest my case!
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
This is all true, but none of it should be blamed on individual homosexual people. That would be like blaming laboratory techs for the existence of a hydrogen bomb.
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Prodigal_Son
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Actions have meanings, Thor. In our culture, my placing my head on a man’s shoulder *means *“you are my lover”. So I CAN’T do that, without communicating something false. But I NEED male affection. So I’m in a Catch-22.Well maybe straight men should stop being so afraid that someone might think they’re gay. If there was no stigma attached to being gay, no one would pay any attention to two straight men showing affection for each other.
Let me play a sad song for you on the world’s smallest violin
Did this change happen because homosexuality became more acceptable? Yes.
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Prodigal_Son
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When did clem456 say it was sexual?Don’t even go there! I have no problem with Jesus and John showing this affection because I have no problem believing that they don’t have sexual feelings attached to it like you would want to lead us to believe:tsktsk: It’s close to Blashemy clem456. Kinda sickening in my opinion.
I read just the opposite.
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WilT
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Let me give you something you may understand:When did clem456 say it was sexual?
I read just the opposite.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25* For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen*. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural , 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another,** men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,** 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 **There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, **of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. RM Chp. 1&2
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estesbob
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Thorolfr
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In addition to being a male, couldn’t a man also be gay and be a son and a brother and an Irish American, etc., etc.
Normal is being either male or female.
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Prodigal_Son
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Nope. Only a man. In order to keep to this purism, we kill his father and brother, and we destroy his country.
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estesbob
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Surely you are not equating sodomy with ethnicity.?
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Prodigal_Son
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Bob, that comment isn’t your style. Please reread it, and reread Thor’s comment. He certainly wasn’t talking about sodomy.
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estesbob
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Apears to me he was.
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BrassAnkles
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Thor is here to promote sodomy at the cost of the Bible and Catholic tradition, so I see this as a valid interpretation.
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Thorolfr
Guest
I said, “In addition to being a male, couldn’t a man also be gay and be a son and a brother and an Irish American, etc., etc.” I didn’t say anything about “sodomy” which is a homosexual act. In case you’re unaware of what the word “gay” means, it doesn’t mean a homosexual act. According to Wikipedia, “Gay is a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual”. There is nothing wrong with being “gay” i.e. being a “homosexual person”. Official Church documents often refer to “homosexual persons”. For example, there is the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons:
"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin…
“This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves…”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
According to the Catholic Church, there is nothing wrong with being “gay” (i.e. a “homosexual person”), only with homosexual acts which they consider to be “sodomy”.
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Thorolfr
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I’m not here to promote anything, but I do try to speak honestly about my life and to be truthful about what I believe. As it says in Ephesians 4:25: “Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.”
I’m sure that you are also being truthful about what you believe and about your life which is fine with me.
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Rau
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I take you earlier point about being “gay”, but in regard to this point, what can such acts be? Masturbation? Sodomy? They are not conjugal.
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Rau
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On that note, could you respond to the following:
1). How do you explain the total absence in Scripture of any positive references at all about same sex sexual unions. As a Christian, do you find this absence of positive Scriptural reference, to something so fundamental in your life, to be disconcerting?
2). You have stated that you believe sexual relations with another man is ‘natural’ for a homosexual man. What then is the natural purpose of that man’s sperm in the sexual act?
3) What does the Lutheran Book (was it called the Book of Concord?) teach about masturbation and IVF? Is the Book available on-line?
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WilT
Guest
Scriptures also say:
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural , 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 **But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, *6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. RM Chp. 1&2 *
Your truths are not based on anything scriptural but most llkely based on sinful desires.
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BrassAnkles
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(my bold) I am glad you see the reality of what happens when a society embraces homosexuality; traditional forms of affection between the same sexes have to be modified in order to not have the appearance of being sexual.
This is only a logical outcome of course the reason being in traditional societies physical public affection between a man and a women are frowned upon, after all we are sexual beings and we know that men are attracted to women and vice versa and can easily be tempted (in fact the Bible says it is good for a man not to touch a women) so when a new component of sexual desire is added to a society, the natural reaction will be to apply the same standards of acceptable public displays. This of course is to ensure public displays of affection, ranging from interactions between complete strangers to family/friends, are devoid of sexual innuendo.
Furthermore, in the same way an available women could limit displays of public affection between herself and men this has become necessary for men given the probability that they might meet another man who is interested in them sexually. As homosexuality permeates society this becomes more pronounced of course. A perfect example of this phenomenon would look at how an attractive women would act in public with men in which she is not interested. Now men must take the same approach. This will of course completely undermine same displays of sex affection in public because it is no longer safe. This completely undermines the camaraderie that this type of affection builds and is clearly apparent in Western society which has embraced homosexuality, as opposed to more traditional Latin American societies which haven’t reached this level of saturation of homosexuality and as such displays of same sex affection are much more common. I know because I live in a Hispanic country.
The increasing suppression of demonstration of public affection not only undermine camaraderie it also denies society of a very important element of same sex affection that is devoid of a sexual component, as is seen in the Bible and Latin American countries. This may not affect persons of stable mind and adequate formation, on the other hand persons who are socially inept and children who come from broken families are the most affected because this same sex expression of love is essential to their mental well being and for children, development.
In fact, in my research it is common to see young men with low self esteem have conflicting sexual desires and either do not have a father figure or have a cold father who does not give them the very essential emotional affection they needed. In fact in my own case my father was an alcoholic and cold. In other words as these young men grow up without this essential same sex bonding they can become confused as to the reason for this longing and interpret it as something sexual. St. Paul speaks about the fact that a weak persons mind is easily defiled and with so much homosexualization of society many young adults with low self esteem and almost non existent same sex bonding are convinced this essential need for same sex bonding must be sexual.
This is the reason why homosexuality is so treacherous for society and why God has never tolerated it - it completely undermines the important same sex affection that is important for the proper development of children and also acts as a buffer for individuals that are socially needy.
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estesbob
Guest
Yes he’s could be all that but it is totally irrelevant to one’s gender or sexual behavior.
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