Evangelism to Muslims

[Justice2006]

LatinCat:

Why is it that muslims cannot have a rational discussion in these forums?

The kind of discusion you probably want to have is same as you have had in the last 2000 years that lead you nowhere but kept peope like you live in the so-called “mysteries” created by your Chruch.

A rational discussion is a discussion in which either you convince me or get convinced. But unfortunately with ideas such as of Trinity or Holiness of Jesus becoming a curse for you or him descending into the Hell for you etc., cannot even convince all the thousands of different sects and denominations of Christiandom, let alone any knowledgeable Muslim.

The only option left for you is to come the commonalities/similarties that we all share/have and then learn to live with our differences and stop evangelising others through deceptive ways/methods/tactics.

.

 

[Justice2006]

murtad:

The Pharisees were the ones who crucified our Lord Jesus are the founders of Islamism…

Mr. murtad,

If Judas the traitor had not betrayed Jesus, do you think Jesus still would have committed suicide to “save” you from a “sin” which you actually did not commit?

.

 

[LatinCat]

Justice2006:

The kind of discusion you probably want to have is same as you have had in the last 2000 years that lead you nowhere but kept peope like you live in the so-called “mysteries” created by your Chruch.

A rational discussion is a discussion in which either you convince me or get convinced. But unfortunately with ideas such as of Trinity or Holiness of Jesus becoming a curse for you or him descending into the Hell for you etc., cannot even convince all the thousands of different sects and denominations of Christiandom, let alone any knowledgeable Muslim.

The only option left for you is to come the commonalities/similarties that we all share/have and then learn to live with our differences and stop evangelising others through deceptive ways/methods/tactics.

.

And rational answers concerning these issues have been provided on other threads. However, you muslims are so blind in your unbelief that no explanation will possibly suffice for you. That is why it is impossible to have a rational discussion with you. I would ask you to explain to me why I should believe Mohamed the dillisional just because he said he had some private revelation, but you muslims are already hijacking this thread. This thread had nothing to do with your silly beliefs. It was intended to be a dialogue among Christians about rescuing you guys from the filthy heresy of Mohomed.

 

[LatinCat]

Murtad, I would like to congratulate you on your enterance into the true faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. And i would like to praise Jesus Christ for his great mercy in your conversion.

 

[murtad]

Justice2006:

Mr. murtad,
You must take a history class from an unbiased/independant professor of your own Christian history. Your claims cannot change the facts.

You may claim history courses are “unbiased” or “independent” but this is simply not true. Our Lord Jesus taught that everyone has a bias and there are only two-sides, for us (ie. the Church of God meaning pro-Christian) or against us (ie. the Church of Satan meaning anti-Christian).

An honest history professor will admit his bias, such as his religion, which includes his political views. He will try as transparently as possible to research Islam and its rival ideologies. He may eventually side with Islam if he fears losing his life but if he is brave he will dare to admit racism in Islam by its early leaders and if he has the courage, he will renounce Islam completely.

A dishonest person hides his bias and an example is those two defeated U.S. presidential candidates Albert Gore (who was really an Islamist) and John Kerry (who was really an Atheist). Both pretended to be Christians but the U.S. voters were not fooled by their lies.

Let us be honest! Let us engage is serious discussion whether Islam in its orthodox form advocated racism and Nazism. We can compare the four rightly-guided Caliphs of Islam, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali who succeeded Muhammad. You will be surprised to see that these rightly-guided Caliphs were true Nazis like Adolf Hitler and forced non-Arab population of the Byzantine Empire to pay jizyah and kharaj or assimilate as Arabs, meaning embrace Islam. This is what racism means. USA is truly a multi-racial society as it has no official language and does not force anyone to assimilate as English against their free will. This is because USA follows the Roman-Byzantine Empire, which was multi-ethnic and tolerant towards other cultures, at least until Chalcedon.

 

[Myangel]

LatinCat:

Murtad, I would like to congratulate you on your enterance into the true faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. And i would like to praise Jesus Christ for his great mercy in your conversion.

:bowdown2:

 

[pro_universal]

The Vatican has to speak politically correct language as confrontational language with Protestants, Greek Orthodox and Islamists will lead to war and even riots. When the Pope speaks to a non-Catholic media he speaks in tongues (ie. unknown or ambiguous languages) which must be interpreted by the faithful who know how to interpret it

Truly you are mistaken. What you are saying here is that the Pope deliberately misleads people with his speeches in order to “fool them” into thinking he’s teaching a more moderate and accepting position than is actually the case. That is insulting to the Church. We do not need “tricks” and “politically correct” language; instead, we read the teaching of the Church for the plain truth that it is. That includes Lumen Gentium, which is a real document of learning, not a clever piece of “pollitcally correct language.”

Now, let’s compare that to what you do here:

A dishonest person hides his bias and an example is those two defeated U.S. presidential candidates Albert Gore (who was really an Islamist) and John Kerry (who was really an Atheist). Both pretended to be Christians but the U.S. voters were not fooled by their lies.

Do you not see the similarity between your claims to minimize the importance of the Pope’s teaching, and the criticism you ovver to US presidential candidates?

Judging by posting times and the content of his posts, I’m certain that murtad is not an ex muslim but is in fact an Indian anti-muslim poster. This is too eerily similar to encounters with Indian christians I’ve had to be anything else.

 

[pro_universal]

LatinCat:

What an absurd question. Of course I don’t believe that the jews are satan. But i do believe that their unbelief is satan inspired.
Now provide a straight forward answere to each of my questions.

You have your answer, I posted it above.

I eagerly await thread titles like “Jewish lies inspired by Satan”, or “Rabbis spreading satanic teaching.”

Would you consider such threads to be legitimate attempts at converting people to Christianity? Or would you look at them more as rehashed nazi propaganda?

What amazes is me is how people can take the accusations that everyone would recognize as wrong and offensive if they were levelled against Jews in the same terms, but if you substitue the word “Muslim” for “Jew”, that seems to be just fine.

Offensive and unproductive material is so because of its structure, not because it’s aimed at muslims instead of Jews.

 

[LatinCat]

pro_universal:

Truly you are mistaken. What you are saying here is that the Pope deliberately misleads people with his speeches in order to “fool them” into thinking he’s teaching a more moderate and accepting position than is actually the case. That is insulting to the Church. We do not need “tricks” and “politically correct” language; instead, we read the teaching of the Church for the plain truth that it is. That includes Lumen Gentium, which is a real document of learning, not a clever piece of “pollitcally correct language.”

Now, let’s compare that to what you do here:

Do you not see the similarity between your claims to minimize the importance of the Pope’s teaching, and the criticism you ovver to US presidential candidates?

Judging by posting times and the content of his posts, I’m certain that murtad is not an ex muslim but is in fact an Indian anti-muslim poster. This is too eerily similar to encounters with Indian christians I’ve had to be anything else.

You know, if you want to disagree with the Church’s teachings then you really should just find a different religion.

 

[LatinCat]

pro_universal:

You have your answer, I posted it above.

I eagerly await thread titles like “Jewish lies inspired by Satan”, or “Rabbis spreading satanic teaching.”

Would you consider such threads to be legitimate attempts at converting people to Christianity? Or would you look at them more as rehashed nazi propaganda?

What amazes is me is how people can take the accusations that everyone would recognize as wrong and offensive if they were levelled against Jews in the same terms, but if you substitue the word “Muslim” for “Jew”, that seems to be just fine.

Offensive and unproductive material is so because of its structure, not because it’s aimed at muslims instead of Jews.

The Jews have true revelation from God. Muslims do not.
Muslims believe that it is good and virtuous to persecute and kill Christians. Jews do not. Really, why is it so difficult for you to see how messed the muslim religion really is. Btw, if you disagree with the teachings of the Church and the scriptures, you are welcome to find a different religion.

 

[pro_universal]

You know, if you want to disagree with the Church’s teachings then you really should just find a different religion.

I would say the same thing to all those who are so ready to misread and invalidate the Catechism and the Encyclicals of the Popes.

The message of the Pope is clear on Muslims. Respect and tolerance, not bashing, are the rules of the Church. The way you are trying to read LG and CCC 841 can only come from two sources:

1. You have not actually read Lumen Gentium

or

1. Your dislike for muslims is so strong that you refuse to accept what the teaching plainly says.

 

[pro_universal]

Muslims believe that it is good and virtuous to persecute and kill Christians. Jews do not.

This is exactly the kind of ignorance that prevents us from carrying out the Christian mission to love the world. This statement is factually incorrect, and you know at the very least that you’re at risk of being wrong when you make it.

I can say that with confidence because as someone who has taken the time to learn what muslims actually believe and preach to each other, I am certain that there is no possible way you can read the Koran or listen to the opinions of muslim religious authorities and come to the above conclusion. It is 100 percent wrong, and is the product of propaganda, not learning.

 

[LatinCat]

pro_universal:

I would say the same thing to all those who are so ready to misread and invalidate the Catechism and the Encyclicals of the Popes.

The message of the Pope is clear on Muslims. Respect and tolerance, not bashing, are the rules of the Church. The way you are trying to read LG and CCC 841 can only come from two sources:

1. You have not actually read Lumen Gentium

or

1. Your dislike for muslims is so strong that you refuse to accept what the teaching plainly says.

WRONG! You see, I have read LG. The problem is that you are reading your own personal opinions into LG while I am reading what the clear meaning of the text says. I interprate LG in light of the Church’s past teachings. You treat LG as if it is novel doctrine. Such an idea puts you outside of the Church.
Oh, and BTW. I do not not dislike muslims. However, I do dislike their religion and its founder.

 

[LatinCat]

pro_universal:

This is exactly the kind of ignorance that prevents us from carrying out the Christian mission to love the world. This statement is factually incorrect, and you know at the very least that you’re at risk of being wrong when you make it.

I can say that with confidence because as someone who has taken the time to learn what muslims actually believe and preach to each other, I am certain that there is no possible way you can read the Koran or listen to the opinions of muslim religious authorities and come to the above conclusion. It is 100 percent wrong, and is the product of propaganda, not learning.

Are you really that snowed by pro-muslim propoganda? Have you read even one of Murtad’s posts on this thread? He is an ex-muslim and I believe he is a pretty good source on how death oriented the muslim religion is. Furthermore, my room mate went to seminary with an ex-muslim and that ex-muslim made it very clear that muslims believe it good and virtuous to kill and oppress Christians and Jews. So stop spouting off democratic talking points. We know better.

 

[pro_universal]

WRONG! You see, I have read LG. The problem is that you are reading your own personal opinions into LG while I am reading what the clear meaning of the text says. I interprate LG in light of the Church’s past teachings. You treat LG as if it is novel doctrine. Such an idea puts you outside of the Church.
Oh, and BTW. I do not not dislike muslims. However, I do dislike their religion and its founder.

You can claim you’ve read it, and that just gets us to 2, which you readily admit.

I agree, it doesn’t change the teaching of the Church. It reaffirms that ours is a religion of reason, tolerance, and understanding, instead of a religion that wastes its time calling other people followers of satan when we could instead focus on the clearly positive aspects of our common belief in God to get something real done.

You keep spending your time calling Islam a religion based on lies of Satan. I’ll keep spending mine focusing on the shared vision of family values, helping the poor, and worshipping one God between our Church and the community of Muslims.

Do you want to make a wager on which of us will do more service to the world that way?

 

[pro_universal]

He is an ex-muslim and I believe he is a pretty good source on how death oriented the muslim religion is. Furthermore, my room mate went to seminary with an ex-muslim and that ex-muslim made it very clear that muslims believe it good and virtuous to kill and oppress Christians and Jews. So stop spouting off democratic talking points. We know better.

Have you ever met any “ex Catholics”? Jack Chick has plenty of them for you.

Why on earth would you consider a self-claimed “ex muslim” with canned posts to be any more credible than the legions of “ex catholics” out there who tell people we worship Mary, statues, and have secret pagan rituals? Do you not see the similarity between the two “ex” members of the different faiths?

 

[Justice2006]

murtad:

You may claim history courses are “unbiased” or “independent” but this is simply not true. Our Lord Jesus taught that everyone has a bias and there are only two-sides, for us (ie. the Church of God meaning pro-Christian) or against us (ie. the Church of Satan meaning anti-Christian).

.

LOL

I think you are either an enemy of Catholic church or a comedian and posting just for fun.

Now I have few questions for you:

Did Jesus merely spent his whole missionary time period in a Jewish synagogue or a Church of his own ministry (if he had one) by praying to himself [if you think he himself was God…God with capital ‘G’] like a monk except for the times of eating, drinking and going out for call of nature?

And did Jesus ask his own choosen disciples: to keep praying to him, but in daily life feel absolutely free to do whatever you like, no dos and donts…if someone want to rob you let him rob and steal everything that you have…if someone wants to kill you don’t upset him…just get killed and make him happy. If someone wants to rape your one daughter, present all of your daughters to him and let him do whatever he likes to them…tell you daughters to get raped. If someone wants to behave with you they way how Iraqis were treated in Abu Ghraib Jail in Iraq by American Christian civilian and soldiers…then don’t say a word…don’t complain…get abused and stay on an electrified chair for hours and hours on one leg or fell off and die…let people like Lady England and her partners make a tower of naked Christians and drag you like a dog…or scare you with wild dogs…etc. but make sure when all this happened…and you somehow survived…don’t open your mouth…let the occupiers do all they want…and not only that… encourage them also to do more and more in the spirit of “turning the other cheek”… you don’t need an army…no police…let all other people have army and police to scare you, rob you. steal your belongings…you just go to the mountains or caves…spend your whole life there praying to me like monks…no need to have a family…don’t get married like me…no need to live in a human soceity…no need to work…just pray…pray…and die??

Please answer what Jesus actually taught?

And those who lived before him since Adam’s time…what way they lived and will they be saved on the judgement Day for not believing in the so-called “death” of your Lord?

 

[Shadowcry]

Good post Justice

 

[Athanasius18]

so im joining late, but i am disturbed by some of the things i am reading. it seems that when all the bantering is done, the question is this: do we need to evangelize the muslims to save their souls? the answer is of course yes, and any answer besides a clear “yes” goes against 2000 years of Scripture, Tradition, papal documents, and Councils. read the works of pope pius the 10th in his syllibus of errors, one of which is that we should have a good hope that those outside of faith in Christ will be saved. of course, all those who profess a doctrine only of “love and respect and tolerance” will throw around some LG and Vatican II bombs. Vatican II made no new doctrine or dogmas, it was restating the Church’s official position for 2000 years. i cant help but wonder what St. Paul, St. Patrick, St. Francis Xaiver, St. Ignatius, or St Francis (who spent time trying to convert the muslims) would say to all those who do anything but totally affirm the need to convert every single muslim. we should all be praying for them.

 

[pro_universal]

do we need to evangelize the muslims to save their souls? the answer is of course yes,

Question: How successfuly do you think the message will be spread by threads saying things like “Muhammad was a bad man” and “Muslims are anti-christs”?

If you affirm the need to evangelize, then you should logically oppose all actions that serve only to sever the relationship between Christians and muslims. You cannot exhibit your faith and its virtues to people whom you have just finished insulting. You also can’t bully them into converting…the best way, and I think this is where Vatican II gets things very right, is to include everyone, and to lead by example. If you have faith in your Church, you should have no problem believing that just going about your daily life as a Catholic and making friends (without insulting, since you want people to be close to you) will send the right message on its own.

You know, the whole “they will know us by our deeds” thing? Or is that just a new “vatican II bomb”?