Evangelism to Muslims

[Athanasius18]

i think you are thinking from an idealized model. i am simply speaking from history and reality. praising other faiths and only “leading by example” does not lead to conversion, it leads to the disease of indifference. i guess all the great missionary saints that called the gods of those they meant to convert demons and spoke out against these false faiths were “intolerant”. The Faith did not spread by nicely leading by example, but by calling those living in darkness into the light. i think that st. francis xavier, st issaic jorges, and st. francis would lament the major emphasis on simply playing nice these days. if islam is a false religion, why beat around the bush? show how it is wrong in clear yet LOVING ways. i am not advocating a lot of the retoric that is floating around, yet i do believe that muhammed was mislead by satan. why is it so wrong to state the obvious?

 

[pro_universal]

i guess all the great missionary saints that called the gods of those they meant to convert demons and spoke out against these false faiths were “intolerant”.

It’s a different world today, and I think the historical track record on which methods got most of Christianity’s converts is skewed heavily by the use of force. It’s easier to convert people (and they stay converted) when you have a colonial army to consolidate the gains and institutionalize the religion.

i am not advocating a lot of the retoric that is floating around, yet i do believe that muhammed was mislead by satan. why is it so wrong to state the obvious?

Because all it serves to do is increase hatred against Muslims, who will not be swayed by insults.

There’s another element to this besides the ineffectiveness of calling Islam bad names, and that is the increasing threat that western politics pose to the lives of people in the Muslim world. The terrorists have succeeded in giving we in the west itchy trigger fingers, and muslim countries have been invaded and attacked repeatedly over the past 10 years.

To go on a campaign of calling Islam and Muhammad “deceived by Satan” and “anti-Christ” at this time would be akin to German Catholics in 1939 deciding that they should convert the Jews by publishing tracts on how “Judaism is deceived by Satan” and “Rabbis preach lies of the devil.” This is not the historical moment or place for that kind of talk against muslims, and it’s a real risk that we’ll end up participating in crimes against humanity.

When there are dark clouds on the horizon, I’d say it’s especially well advised to heed the words of LG and focus on common ground and brotherhood, rather than on differences.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I’m writing this to clarify the situation between Muslims and the rest of the world in the hope that Christian evangelist understand the Muslim mentality and what not to do to offend Muslims. I write this in the hope of world peace and fellowship and brotherhood and all that. Many a time Muslims have said to me, if Islam ruled the world there would be no inter-religious strife. And I must admit this is undoubtedly true. Why can’t people see this self-evidence truth?

First and foremost, Christians should not evangelize Muslims because that would be insulting to them. Christians must do all they can to avoid insulting the Muslims because Allah made Muslims highly sensitive people. It doesn’t matter that Allah called the Jews ‘the sons of pigs and apes’ and regard kuffar (disbelievers) as najis – meaning unclean. Christians should not retaliate against Allah’s insults by saying Muslims are ‘deceived by Satan’. After all, Muhammad too couldn’t tell the difference between verses by Satan or Gabriel, so how can you mere mortal kufar najis?

Christians must not do anything to stir up ‘hatred’ against Muslims, even if by speaking the truth. Muslims are not swayed by insults but will not hesitate to riot and burn churches and kill Christians if insulted. This is proven by current events surrounding the Muhammad cartoons.

Criticism of Muhammad is not allowed in Islam, so you must do this under no circumstances. You are merely engaging in cultural imperialism if you exercise your free will to speak the truth. Muslims don’t want to hear this sort of thing. They only like to know about how perfect a human being Muhammad was. If you tell the truth to Muslims or about Islam, you’ll be stirring up hatred and thus, you will be no better than Nazis, and you know there are no worse people than the Nazis who committed such vicious acts as genocide and enslavement.

Don’t even think of picking up that pen to doodle in case you draw a caricature of a bearded man with a bomb in his turban. That would be sacrilegious and evidence you’re a racist fascist. And if you do draw a cartoon, then it is okay for Muslims to burn some churches in Indonesia and Nigeria. Muslims are such sensitive people you see. Now, which is the more evil I ask you? Drawing cartoons or burning Churches? It is clear it is the former. The latter is merely a justifiable reaction to the Satanic drawing of cartoons. So what if fifty or so Christians get slaughtered? Cartoons are insulting to Muslims and stir up hatred against them, and so you’re no better than genocidal enslaving racist fascist Nazis.

Christians should focus on common ground – like Jesus was only a prophet and not the Son of God, and the Trinity is falsehood. Once Christians accept such common ground then life would be so much easier. To increase the common ground Christians should abandon the points of doctrinal differences with Islam. In fact, it would be easier for Christians to just convert en mass to Islam. That would be the ultimate common ground.

Christians should stress brotherhood with the Muslims even though Muslims regard them as najis – unclean. This is the ultimate test of brotherhood – showing charity to people who despise you.

It is also advisable for Christians to admit their Bible is corrupted, just as the Muslims have long maintained. In doing so, Muslims will slap you on the back and say, ‘welcome Brother.’ Then you can both say the ‘shahada’ together in brotherhood. It’s so easy. Why people haven’t thought of this is beyond me.

But above all else, avoid insulting Islam in any, even the slightest, way. It is disrespectful to Prophet Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah who created all of you. So you must somehow evangelize to Muslims without telling the truth about their prophet’s ‘sublime morality’. They know all about Muhammad’s sublime morality but either rationalize them away or don’t care. So you must only say what Muslims want to hear, not what they should hear.

Finally, you must understand that Islam is THE religion of peace. Not Christianity. Not Buddhism. But Islam. Jesus preached peace and love and turning the other cheek. Muhammad preached kill the pagans, and subjugate and humiliate the Christians. So it is obvious which religion is THE religion of peace. Why, Islam, of course. If you say otherwise, you’re stirring up hatred against the Muslims and thus are no better than a genocidal enslaving racist fascist Nazi.

Islam means submission. Or peace. Ergo submission is peace. Peace is good. Thus, Islam is good. If you don’t admit this, then some Muslim rioters will ‘religion of peace’ you into submission.

Just trying to help.

Happy evangelizing,
Rodrigo

 

[pro_universal]

The only mentality that Rodrigo’s post shows off is his.

I’m going to do something with that above post. With my modifications, you tell me how similar or not it looks to propaganda from an odious and bygone era:

I’m writing this to clarify the situation between Jews and the rest of the world in the hope that Christian evangelist understand the Jewish mentality and what not to do to offend Jews. I write this in the hope of world peace and fellowship and brotherhood and all that. Many a time Jews have said to me, if Judaism ruled the world there would be no inter-religious strife. And I must admit this is undoubtedly true. Why can’t people see this self-evidence truth?

First and foremost, Christians should not evangelize Jews because that would be insulting to them. Christians must do all they can to avoid insulting the Jews because Yhwh made Jews highly sensitive people. It doesn’t matter that Yhwh called the gentiles ‘the sons of pigs and apes’ and regard goyim (nonjews) as tamei – meaning unclean. Christians should not retaliate against Yhwh’s insults by saying Jews are ‘deceived by Satan’. After all, Jews who met Jesus personally couldn’t tell the difference between verses by Satan or Gabriel, so how can you mere mortal goyim?

Christians must not do anything to stir up ‘hatred’ against Jews, even if by speaking the truth. Jews are not swayed by insults but will not hesitate to riot and burn churches and kill Christians if insulted. This is proven by the fact that they crucified Jesus.

Criticism of Israel is not allowed in Judaism, so you must do this under no circumstances. You are merely engaging in cultural imperialism if you exercise your free will to speak the truth. Jews don’t want to hear this sort of thing. They only like to know about how perfect a human being Jews are. If you tell the truth to Jews or about Judaism, you’ll be stirring up hatred and thus, you will be no better than Nazis, and you know there are no worse people than the Nazis who committed such vicious acts as genocide and enslavement.

Don’t even think of picking up that pen to doodle in case you draw a caricature of a big nosed man sitting on a bank vault. That would be sacrilegious and evidence you’re a racist fascist. And if you do draw a cartoon, then it is okay for Jews to run you out of business by calling in your loans and defaming you in hollywood. Jews are such sensitive people you see. Now, which is the more evil I ask you? Drawing cartoons or ruining national economies? It is clear it is the former. The latter is merely a justifiable reaction to the Satanic drawing of cartoons. So what if fifty or so Christians lose their homes and jobs? Cartoons are insulting to Jews and stir up hatred against them, and so you’re no better than genocidal enslaving racist fascist Nazis.

Christians should focus on common ground – like Jesus was a total fraud, and the Trinity is falsehood. Once Christians accept such common ground then life would be so much easier. To increase the common ground Christians should abandon the points of doctrinal differences with Judaism. In fact, it would be easier for Christians to just convert en mass to Judaism. That would be the ultimate common ground.

Christians should stress brotherhood with the Jews even though Jews regard them as tamei – unclean. This is the ultimate test of brotherhood – showing charity to people who despise you.

It is also advisable for Christians to admit their Bible is corrupted, just as the Jews have long maintained. In doing so, Jews will slap you on the back and say, ‘welcome Brother.’ Then you can both say the ‘mozzletoff’ together in brotherhood. It’s so easy. Why people haven’t thought of this is beyond me.

But above all else, avoid insulting Judaism in any, even the slightest, way. It is disrespectful to Jews, the chosen people of God. So you must somehow evangelize to Jews without telling the truth about their ‘business interests’. They know all about their business secrets but either rationalize them away or don’t care. So you must only say what Jews want to hear, not what they should hear.

Finally, you must understand that Judaism is THE religion of peace. Not Christianity. Not Buddhism. But Judaism. Jesus preached peace and love and turning the other cheek. Jews crucified Jesus, and tried to subjugate and humiliate the Christians. So it is obvious which religion is THE religion of peace. Why, Judaism, of course. If you say otherwise, you’re stirring up hatred against the Jews and thus are no better than a genocidal enslaving racist fascist Nazi.

Zionism means justice. Or peace. Ergo Israel is peace. Peace is good. Thus, Jews are good. If you don’t admit this, then some Jewish bankers will ‘debt refinance’ you into submission.

If you can simply exchange “muslim” for “jew” and end up with a disgusting piece of nazi propaganda, you should probably rethink the credibility and motives of the source.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

You’re showing your Muslim mentality, pro.

When I disagree with you, you whine. When I agree with you, you also whine.

So, have you finished with your tu quoque yet? And the typical Muslim tu quoque against the Jews what’s more.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[pro_universal]

So, have you finished with your tu quoque yet? And the typical Muslim tu quoque against the Jews what’s more.

If you would try to elaborate how the above is a tu quoque, you’ll quickly realize that it’s not even close. Not all names for logical fallacies are interchangeable (even the colloquial ones), and certainly “Anything rodrigo doesn’t like” is not a fallacy.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Of course I know what tu quoque means. It is apparent you don’t. You’re saying that Muslims are all that bad because the Jews are similarly ‘bad’. That’s why you substituted Jews for Muslims, Zionism for Islam etc.

Why else did you pick Jews? Do you think it detracts from my arguments?

Okay, okay, strike that last question. Why do you always pick on the Jews?

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[pro_universal]

It is apparent you don’t. You’re saying that Muslims are all that bad because the Jews are similarly ‘bad’. That’s why you substituted Jews for Muslims, Zionism for Islam etc.

No. That isn’t what I was saying. You need to read my post again.

Okay, okay, strike that last question. Why do you always pick on the Jews?

To show how similar the things you write are to Nazi propaganda. All the same lies the Nazis levelled against Jews are now being levelled against Muslims. All it takes to show how similar these rants are to the Nazi formula for villfying Jews is to substitute out the word “muslim” for “jew.”

Read some Nazi propaganda if you don’t believe me. You are doing exactly what they did in the 1930’s, and it’s no less wrong just because muslims are your target.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Okay I re-read and it’s still tu quoque.

pro_universal:

To show how similar the things you write are to Nazi propaganda. All the same lies the Nazis levelled against Jews are now being levelled against Muslims. All it takes to show how similar these rants are to the Nazi formula for villfying Jews is to substitute out the word “muslim” for “jew.”

No. You had to make up some absurd charges like ‘the Jews ruining national economies’. So which national economies are you talking about? I know, I know, forget I asked. The Palestinian national economy of course.

And you have the ‘interesting’ perspective to morally equate ‘murder and mayhem’ with ‘debt refinancing’. Drawing a rather long bow, I see.

You have the ‘interesting’ perspective to equate ANY criticism of Islam with Nazism when all the time you keep on picking on the Jews. Why is that?

Did you forget that your side fought with Hitler against the Allies?

pro_universal:

Read some Nazi propaganda if you don’t believe me. You are doing exactly what they did in the 1930’s, and it’s no less wrong just because muslims are your target.

My grandfather fought the Nazis. I don’t need you to tell me what Nazi propaganda is.

Unlike most readers here, I have read the Quran and I tell you it makes Mein Kampf look like Winnie the Pooh.

Hasta luego,
Rodrigo

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro_universal:

To show how similar the things you write are to Nazi propaganda. All the same lies the Nazis levelled against Jews are now being levelled against Muslims. All it takes to show how similar these rants are to the Nazi formula for villfying Jews is to substitute out the word “muslim” for “jew.”

Respectfully, pro, this is an absurd charge.

Did the Jews have a manual telling them to kill the Nazis or was it the other way around? Do not the Muslim have a manual telling them to kill the pagans?

Did the Jews fly planes into tall buildings in Berlin? Or was it the Muslims?

Did the Jews burn Churches and kill Christians because some newspaper posted some cartoons of Moses? Or was it the Muslims?

Did the Jews blow up trains and a bus in London or was it the Muslims?

Did the Jews conquer and subjugate the Meditteranean rim, North Africa, Spain, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Eastern Europe, India and Persia, or was it the Muslims?

What the Nazis did to the Jews is so different from what I am doing with respect to the Muslims. I put it to you what I write about Islam is no different from what the Americans and Brits wrote about the Nazis. Your moral inversion is ‘interesting’.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Finally, you must understand that Islam is THE religion of peace. Not Christianity. Not Buddhism. But Islam. Jesus preached peace and love and turning the other cheek.

Mr. Rodrigo,

You are again talking nonsense because to claim “Jesus [merely] preached peace and love and turning the other cheek” is a baseless claim. Because you don’t have the full authentic accounts of Jesus’ life, in the first place. You have to have his full authentic, undeniable, strategy in front of you in order to see whether he indeed preached his whole life the philophy of “turning the other cheek” all the time and in every occasion/situation. Unfortunatley Christiandom does not have it.

Even from the corrupted text of the Books of the NT written by unknown authors, you cannot claim what you are claiming.

Now I repeat these questions, in case if you have overlooked them.

Did Jesus merely spent his whole missionary time period in a Jewish synagogue or a Church of his own ministry (if he had one) by praying to himself [if you think he himself was God…God with capital ‘G’] like a monk except for the times of eating, drinking and going out for call of nature?

And did Jesus ask his own choosen disciples: to keep praying to him, but in daily life feel absolutely free to do whatever you like, no dos and donts…if someone want to rob you let him rob and steal everything that you have…if someone wants to kill you don’t upset him…just get killed and make him happy. If someone wants to rape your one daughter, present all of your daughters to him and let him do whatever he likes to them…tell you daughters to get raped. If someone wants to behave with you they way how Iraqis were treated in Abu Ghraib Jail in Iraq by American Christian civilian and soldiers…then don’t say a word…don’t complain…get abused and stay on an electrified chair for hours and hours on one leg or fell off and die…let people like Lady England and her partners make a tower of naked Christians and drag you like a dog…or scare you with wild dogs…etc. but make sure when all this happened…and you somehow survived…don’t open your mouth…let the occupiers do all they want…and not only that… encourage them also to do more and more in the spirit of “turning the other cheek”… you don’t need an army…no police…let all other people have army and police to scare you, rob you. steal your belongings…you just go to the mountains or caves…spend your whole life there praying to me like monks…no need to have a family…don’t get married like me…no need to live in a human soceity…no need to work…just pray…pray…and die??

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Mr. Rodrigo,

You are again talking nonsense because to claim “Jesus [merely] preached peace and love and turning the other cheek” is a baseless claim.

Hello to you too, bud.

Justice2006:

Because you don’t have the full authentic accounts of Jesus’ life, in the first place. You have to have his full authentic, undeniable, strategy in front of you in order to see whether he indeed preached his whole life the philophy of “turning the other cheek” all the time and in every occasion/situation. Unfortunatley Christiandom does not have it.

Like you have fully authentic accounts of Muhammad’s life?

As far as I know, Jesus never killed anyone nor caused anyone to be killed. His whole life story as recounted in the Gospel is consistent with a peace-loving man. An incidents to the contrary are exceedingly mild so I caution against the moral equivalence arguments I know you’re itching to make.

Justice2006:

Even from the corrupted text of the Books of the NT written by unknown authors, you cannot claim what you are claiming.

Sure I can.

Justice2006:

Now I repeat these questions, in case if you have overlooked them.

Did Jesus merely spent his whole missionary time period in a Jewish synagogue or a Church of his own ministry (if he had one) by praying to himself [if you think he himself was God…God with capital ‘G’] like a monk except for the times of eating, drinking and going out for call of nature?

He did neither. Your question is false to begin with.

Justice2006:

And did Jesus ask his own choosen disciples: to keep praying to him, but in daily life feel absolutely free to do whatever you like, no dos and donts…if someone want to rob you let him rob and steal everything that you have…if someone wants to kill you don’t upset him…just get killed and make him happy. If someone wants to rape your one daughter, present all of your daughters to him and let him do whatever he likes to them…tell you daughters to get raped. If someone wants to behave with you they way how Iraqis were treated in Abu Ghraib Jail in Iraq by American Christian civilian and soldiers…then don’t say a word…don’t complain…get abused and stay on an electrified chair for hours and hours on one leg or fell off and die…let people like Lady England and her partners make a tower of naked Christians and drag you like a dog…or scare you with wild dogs…etc. but make sure when all this happened…and you somehow survived…don’t open your mouth…let the occupiers do all they want…and not only that… encourage them also to do more and more in the spirit of “turning the other cheek”… you don’t need an army…no police…let all other people have army and police to scare you, rob you. steal your belongings…you just go to the mountains or caves…spend your whole life there praying to me like monks…no need to have a family…don’t get married like me…no need to live in a human soceity…no need to work…just pray…pray…and die??

This is nonsense. Illogical extrapolations do you no credit. Please take the ‘turn the other cheek’ in context and read in full what it means:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)

It doesn’t mean you’re supposed to be totally passive and allow people to walk all over you. It means you don’t hate your enemies.

Ever heard of metaphors? Muslims claim metaphors all the time when they’re cornered about Quranic verses.

And I was wondering how long before you brought up Abu Ghraib. You, of course, don’t want me to tell the Christians about Kinana al-Rabi and the buried treasure, do you?

Please bear in mind Lynndie England is not a prophet but Muhammad claimed he was. There is no equivalence between them and their behavior.

Hasta la vista
Rodrigo

 

[murtad]

LatinCat:

Murtad, I would like to congratulate you on your enterance into the true faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. And i would like to praise Jesus Christ for his great mercy in your conversion.

You put is very correctly as only God can convert a person. I myself never knew I will convert to the Catholic Church. For my father is is learned Ulama (scholar in Islam), he instilled into me the foundation of Islamism. In my early life, I served in an Islamic mission society where my co-workers and I were involved in active missionary activity against Christians and Jews and used to attack their faith. I can only praise my Lord Jesus for showing Himself to me and freeing me from the yoke of slavery.

In the Bible, the Book of Galatians, Chapter 4 we will find these verses that tell us:

[21] Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?
[22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
[23] But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.
[24] Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
[25] Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
[26] But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
[28] Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
[29] But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
[30] But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
[31] So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

AFAIK, these verses tell us that Islamism is a form of slavery to the Arab laws. We are of the free woman, Sarah, children of promise. We embraced the Catholic Church by our own free-will, as opposed to Islamism, which enslaves its children to its laws on the pain of death.

On this forum, most Christians are from free societies, such as US, UK, AU, CA, NZ, IN and SG that are mostly Christian-majority. Therefore most of you are not aware of persecution of our Christian brothers and sisters in Islamic societies. In such societies, Christians cannot openly criticise Islam, even if they are under persecution. This is why His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI speaks in tongues as he wants to protect the lives of our brothers and sisters in such societies. We must learn to interpret the words of wisdom of the Pope correctly and this can be done by asking God in prayer to give us ability to interpret tongues.

–
In the name of our Lord Jesus and our Lady, Ever-Virgin Mary the Theotokos

 

[LatinCat]

pro_universal:

You can claim you’ve read it, and that just gets us to 2, which you readily admit.

I agree, it doesn’t change the teaching of the Church. It reaffirms that ours is a religion of reason, tolerance, and understanding, instead of a religion that wastes its time calling other people followers of satan when we could instead focus on the clearly positive aspects of our common belief in God to get something real done.

You keep spending your time calling Islam a religion based on lies of Satan. I’ll keep spending mine focusing on the shared vision of family values, helping the poor, and worshipping one God between our Church and the community of Muslims.

Do you want to make a wager on which of us will do more service to the world that way?

Not you because as you do that you only reinforce the idea to muslims that it is ok to be muslim. That is a diservice to them. As for tolerance, God does not tolerate evil or lies concerning his only Son. Therefore, God does not tolerate the muslim religion. Neither should his Church.

 

[Athanasius18]

pro, im realizing more and more that you live in a very decieved LaLa land. so we cant call muslims to faith in Jesus Christ because there is a war on terror going on (and who started that one, 9-11 maybe?). of course, your logic says that this means we are nazis trying to kill jews. if there ever needed to be evidence that liberals cannot use even basic reason, this argument is it. unlike muslims, modern Catholics are nonviolent. muslims are full of anger and violence, just as their founder was. why do you insist on defending a false religion? st. paul said “woe to me if i do not PREACH the Gospel”. lastly, your utter lack of knowledge of history is astounding. yes, force was used by some colonialists to make people convert. that is the muslim was of doing things btw, but im sure your fine with that! this method is wrong for christians, but did i mention forced coersion? no! i was talking about st. francis (who preached to the muslims), st issaic jorges (who converted many native americans with his small band of jesuits), st. francis xavier and other great missionary saints. they used no force, only preached the Gospel with love and firmness. i suppose that these guys were biggoted too? are you going to trash our greatest saints for your own PC values? you say that contemporary culture would not allow this. doesnt that just reflect poorly on our culture? and exucse me, but last time i checked the Gospel of Jesus Christ is above any paticular culture and its own version of good taste. i suppose me going to argintina this summer as a missionary is stupid because im infringing on people’s beliefs pro? or the missionaries who are in the muslim world right now, often being persectued? stupid, selfish men right? sheesh…

 

[BryPGuy89]

LatinCat:

And this attitude puts you outside the Church. Christ our Lord said, “Go, make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” You see it was Christ himself who commanded us to bring all people to the true faith, and that means evangelizing them, not just dialogue. Evangelizations requires that we speak the thruth that Jesus is “the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No one goes to the Father but by [him]”. Meaning God is only approachable through Jesus Christ, and since the Catholic Church is his own body, then that means that we approach God through his Church, which is the universal ark of salvation. In fact, it is the teaching of the Church that there is no salvation outsided the Chruch (extra ecclesiam nulla solus) except in the case of invincible ignorance.

In the CCC and John Paul II both ask for dialogue, not evangelization. To immediately put someone on the defensive is deffinitely not the way to convert someone. If someone who was more educated than I, came up and started telling me how wrong my answers are that I can’t do anything right, I wouldn’t listen to him, but get defensive and want to be able to justify myself and would almost completely ignore him and have a barrier between the two of us for a while. I think it is this we are right and we have to tell everyone else that they are wrong, nothing else to it, is the very foundation of why we have so many problems between the three God of Abraham faiths. The lack of dialogue and the increase in evangelisation is the very source and always has been the reason for the almost enemy like view the faiths seem to have.

 

[LatinCat]

BryPGuy89:

In the CCC and John Paul II both ask for dialogue, not evangelization. To immediately put someone on the defensive is deffinitely not the way to convert someone. If someone who was more educated than I, came up and started telling me how wrong my answers are that I can’t do anything right, I wouldn’t listen to him, but get defensive and want to be able to justify myself and would almost completely ignore him and have a barrier between the two of us for a while. I think it is this we are right and we have to tell everyone else that they are wrong, nothing else to it, is the very foundation of why we have so many problems between the three God of Abraham faiths. The lack of dialogue and the increase in evangelisation is the very source and always has been the reason for the almost enemy like view the faiths seem to have.

If you do not believe that we should evangelize the muslims, then you are outside of the Church concerning your beliefs because Christ himself commanded us “go, make disciple of ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Do you disagree with Christ’s command? Would you go against Christ?

 

[LatinCat]

Athanasius18:

pro, im realizing more and more that you live in a very decieved LaLa land. so we cant call muslims to faith in Jesus Christ because there is a war on terror going on (and who started that one, 9-11 maybe?). of course, your logic says that this means we are nazis trying to kill jews. if there ever needed to be evidence that liberals cannot use even basic reason, this argument is it. unlike muslims, modern Catholics are nonviolent. muslims are full of anger and violence, just as their founder was. why do you insist on defending a false religion? st. paul said “woe to me if i do not PREACH the Gospel”. lastly, your utter lack of knowledge of history is astounding. yes, force was used by some colonialists to make people convert. that is the muslim was of doing things btw, but im sure your fine with that! this method is wrong for christians, but did i mention forced coersion? no! i was talking about st. francis (who preached to the muslims), st issaic jorges (who converted many native americans with his small band of jesuits), st. francis xavier and other great missionary saints. they used no force, only preached the Gospel with love and firmness. i suppose that these guys were biggoted too? are you going to trash our greatest saints for your own PC values? you say that contemporary culture would not allow this. doesnt that just reflect poorly on our culture? and exucse me, but last time i checked the Gospel of Jesus Christ is above any paticular culture and its own version of good taste. i suppose me going to argintina this summer as a missionary is stupid because im infringing on people’s beliefs pro? or the missionaries who are in the muslim world right now, often being persectued? stupid, selfish men right? sheesh…

AMEN to this post!

 

[LatinCat]

I think that we are all over the place on this thread. I suggest we focus, like a laser, on one thing at a time. Let’s figure out what we can conclude about evangelization and non-Catholic religions based on what the documents of the Church say. So lets discuss this matter with regard to Lumen Gentium, The Catechism of the Catholic Church (even though it doesn’t hold a high level of authority), Dominus Iesus, Mystici Corporis Christi, the great councils of the Church, and the scriptures. Is that a reasonable agreement? Lets not call names. We may call things evil but let us refrain from calling people stupid, ignorant, etc. Remember we are not reading our own beliefs into the text. We are engaging in exigesis, the science of determining what the document is saying on its own. So let us take an unbiased approach.

 

[murtad]

pro_universal:

Truly you are mistaken. What you are saying here is that the Pope deliberately misleads people with his speeches in order to “fool them” into thinking he’s teaching a more moderate and accepting position than is actually the case. That is insulting to the Church. We do not need “tricks” and “politically correct” language; instead, we read the teaching of the Church for the plain truth that it is. That includes Lumen Gentium, which is a real document of learning, not a clever piece of “pollitcally correct language.”

I feel you have misunderstood the CCC and the Bible completely. The Pope is not misleading anyone but rather it is the lay Christians that misunderstand him. The Pope or for that matter any Bishop in the Church only speaks in tongues out of love, for both Christians and non-Christians alike. They do not want harm to come to Christian Catholic faithful living in Islamic societies.

I am sure you remember the recent issue when a Denmark newspaper published caricatures of Muhammad, the Islamists worldwide rioted, burnt flags and shouted “Death to the Jews”. At least one Jewish synagogue was torched. These Islamists and their left-wing supporters in the West hate freedom of speech. They however exercise freedom of speech to shout Anti-Semitic and Christianophobic slogans regularly but yet try to deny Christians and Jews the same freedom of speech.

The CCC confirms every previous teaching of the Church and the Bible. We of course will need to interpret CCC correctly because for us, members of the Catholic Church, Holy Tradition and Holy Bible go hand-in-hand together. If you read the Bible, you will realise that it tells us that speaking in unknown languages (or tongues) is for our own benefit. The Church will only benefit when there are some of its members who are able to offer an interpretation of these tongues to other members.

pro_universal:

Now, let’s compare that to what you do here:

Do you not see the similarity between your claims to minimize the importance of the Pope’s teaching, and the criticism you ovver to US presidential candidates?

The Pope is leader of the Church, while the US presidential candidates are not lay people. There is a BIG difference between the two. The Pope rarely talks much but when he speaks, he tells us important messages that can be read either way. An unbeliever out of ignorance misunderstanding them (ie. Jews in Jesus’ time failed to understand Old Testament is itself written in tongues pointing to a Messiah who is fully God and fully man) while believers are able to understand them.

pro_universal:

Judging by posting times and the content of his posts, I’m certain that murtad is not an ex muslim but is in fact an Indian anti-muslim poster. This is too eerily similar to encounters with Indian christians I’ve had to be anything else.

You are not the person to judge me or my actions. By saying I am not an ex-Muslim but an Indian anti-Muslim poster, you show us you hate Indians. Now that is typical Muslim racism to discredit their enemies as Jews or Indians. India is a free society but its enemy, Pakistan has a poor human rights record and by means of the Blasphemy Laws sentences to death those who leave Islam.

On this forum, the only other person to accuse me of being an enemy of Christians and the Catholic Church was Mr. Justice, who happens to be a Muslim.