Ever hear of John MacArthur? He is a particularly hostile Protestant.

[lak611]

John MacArthur is a garden-variety dispensationalist. When I was a protestant one of my pastors had served with MacArthur’s church. I once believed it too.

There were no dispensationalists until J.N. Darby started expressing himself around 1830.

If one studies Church history with an open mind (not presupposing what one is attempting to prove) the truth of the historical Catholic Church will become clear.

Dispensationalism makes no sense from a Biblical standpoint. It would require 3 comings of Christ, not 2. If there was a rapture and a millenial kingdom, He would have to come again 2 more times; but the Bible says He is only coming again once more.

 

[sandusky]

Lies almost mess up a man’s marriage.

Having read the entire thread, Church Militant, I find the title of your link misrepresentative. Thankfully, the OP is not quite as secular in his thinking as you are, but he is a real man, who rather than blaming someone else for his predicament, took complete responsibility for his abysmal failure as the spiritual leader of his family and took steps to correct that failure.

 

[Church_Militant]

Having read the entire thread, Church Militant, I find the title of your link misrepresentative. Thankfully, the OP is not quite as secular in his thinking as you are, but he is a real man, who rather than blaming someone else for his predicament, took complete responsibility for his abysmal failure as the spiritual leader of his family and took steps to correct that failure.

Cute…inaccurate, but cute.

I happen to have been one of the guys who fed Mike the info that helped refute those lies about the Catholic faith…and they are lies, because you can’t sit there and try to tell me that anyone who is supposedly as learned as MacArthur doesn’t know full well that he is misrepresenting the Catholic faith. He makes it his specialty to attack Catholicsm, and he did indeed produce the CD that almost wrecked my friend’s marriage.

I agree that it’s good that Mike took charge of the spiritual welfare of his family and by the grace of God led them through it all to a stronger Catholic faith, but the fact remains that if it wasn’t for the lies on that initial CD, the problem would never have arisen to begin with.

Besides…I’ve looked at MacArthur’s site and I stand by my statement that he’s a liar. Anyone as supposedly learned as he is who misrepresents the facts of Catholic teaching the way he does, isn’t doing so out of ignorance or bad information.

I also applaud the way my friend sat down and made a list and then went into each teaching one at a time to learn the facts and refute the false teachings.

walks off humming the line from Dire Straits “Money for Nothing” “…That’s the way ya do it…”

 

[lak611]

Besides…I’ve looked at MacArthur’s site and I stand by my statement that he’s a liar. Anyone as supposedly learned as he is who misrepresents the facts of Catholic teaching the way he does, isn’t doing so out of ignorance or bad information.

Is he really as educated as his site says? What about the institutions where he received his education? Was he perhaps just indoctrinated by false teachers, and now he’s teaching the same false teaching that he learned?

 

[Fidelis]

Cute…inaccurate, but cute…

I agree. Mike’s story is a great work of God and a tribute to one man’s perseverence and the love shown by the many apologists in this forum. Praise the Lord!!

 

[Melchior]

Sandusky,

I used to love MacArthur and listen to him on the way to work every morning. But I have a question, if MacArthur is so concerned with the truth why is he still a Baptist? I still have my MacArthur study Bible. Horrible notes.

This is the same guy who until very recently denied Christ’s eternal Sonship. I am grateful he has turned from that heresy, though. But it was also a pivotal moment for me in understanding the need for councils and a visible church. If a first rate mind like JM’s can get something so fundamental wrong for so long, I would never trust him to accurately understand what Catholics believe or for him to get important Biblical concepts right. And I am not Catholic.

Mel

 

[sandusky]

Church Militant:

Cute…inaccurate, but cute.

I happen to have been one of the guys who fed Mike the info that helped refute those lies about the Catholic faith…and they are lies, because you can’t sit there and try to tell me that anyone who is supposedly as learned as MacArthur doesn’t know full well that he is misrepresenting the Catholic faith. He makes it his specialty to attack Catholicsm, and he did indeed produce the CD that almost wrecked my friend’s marriage.

First of all, it would seem that many Catholics think that all MacArthur does is continually preach about the Catholic Church; he does not.

I can count on two hands the number of sermons I have heard him preach about your Church; and I have found them all to be factual to the best of his ability.

Secondly, that CD was from a recording of a sermon that was preached shortly after the death of JPII. It was a timely message in that the eyes of the world were focused upon the funeral of the one who, at that time, was the head of The Church that claims to be the representative of Christ on earth, and the representative of true Christianity.

It was this Pope as well, who claimed to Mary, that he was Totus Tuus, totally yours.

As I watched television coverage of the funeral, I was saddened to here Catholic clergy, from young priests, to old and seasoned Cardinals, from all over the world, sitting in news commentary booths and proclaiming the surety of JPII’s advance to heaven because he had “lived a good life of charity and suffering.” Over and over again I heard that statement, and variations of it proclaimed to a watching world.

That is not the gospel, and the Catholic Clergy should know that. Each had an opportunity to proclaim the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and none did, at least, not that I saw. Perhaps they are Ashamed of the Gospel.

As to the teachings on Mary that your linked thread mentioned, here is the opening statement of the first of a four part series of sermons preached on Mary and the Catholic Church; this is MarArthur’s statement after his analogical introduction:

Now I don’t want to assign to the Catholic Church anything that they don’t say, so I am about, at this point, to let you hear Rome speak. This is going to be a little bit beleaguering but it’s very important for you to understand that this is not coming from me, these are their claims for Mary.

He then goes on to quote Papal statements concerning Mary, and then reads heavily from the book, The Glories of Mary, by Alphonsus de Liguori.

MacArthur says:

1745…St. Alphonsus Delaguarie(?) [sic] wrote a massive book called The Glories of Mary. It is 750 pages, all of which I read. That was a very painful exercise, believe me. It has been published many, many times since 1745. It is fully authorized by the Roman Catholic Church. Its latest edition that I have is a smaller abridged version of it, published by the Catholic Book Publishing Company of New York and officially stamped by the Vicar General, the Archdiocese of New York. The original was fully sanctioned as well. One of the sanctioners of this are the Redemptorist Fathers and they sanctioned an edition of it in 1931 through the Cardinal in New York City. The purpose of Delaguarie [sic], his work, is to make the impression of wonder and awe at the realization of Mary’s power. She is viewed as powerful. The book then and all its subsequent publishings and in all of its subsequent formats calls on all of us to be loyal and faithful to Mary for everything we need spiritually, including our salvation. I went back to the original edition which has been published again and again and again, the one I have is a 1931 reprint which was, as I said, sanctioned by the Redemptorist Fathers and the Cardinal in New York City. Here are some of the prayers. Listen to this…

The transcript of that preached sermon can be read here.

(continued below)

 

[Church_Militant]

Is he really as educated as his site says? What about the institutions where he received his education? Was he perhaps just indoctrinated by false teachers, and now he’s teaching the same false teaching that he learned?

A good point, but I am thinking in terms of what Our Lord said in John 9:41: Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, `We see,’ your guilt remains.

The man has all kinds of credentials and many n-Cs/a-Cs seem to feel that because of that he is some sort of expert on the Catholic faith…yet to read or listen to his material is to quickly see that that is not the case at all, at all.
Pax Domnini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[lak611]

This is the same guy who until very recently denied Christ’s eternal Sonship.
Mel

:bigyikes: How could this man be considered a Christian at all, much less a Baptist, if he denied Christ’s eternal Sonship?

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #84)
Church Militant:

Besides…I’ve looked at MacArthur’s site and I stand by my statement that he’s a liar. Anyone as supposedly learned as he is who misrepresents the facts of Catholic teaching the way he does, isn’t doing so out of ignorance or bad information.

In the opening statement of His fourth sermon on Mary, he says this:

We have been looking at the subject of the idolatry of Mary worship in what is really a study of false religion, Roman Catholicism, and its worship of Mary. Interestingly enough I this past week had the opportunity to be on the Larry King Show, some of you probably saw it, with a whole group of Roman Catholics and several priests. And in the Green Room there were some Catholic apologists and Catholic media people, and Roman Catholic publicity people and there were some young men from the Vatican Seminary and the usual Father Manning. I was checking on my facts as I had the opportunity to do that in talking to them about things and it was affirmed to me that the very things that we are talking about in this study of Mary are the things to which they are truly and genuinely devoted.

The transcript of that preached sermon can be read here.

Those learned Catholic Priests, and Apologists, had no disagreement with the facts MacArthur presented concerning Catholic devotion to Mary.

You may disagree with his understanding, and the conclusions that he reached, but he was factual concerning the RCC teaching and devotion to Mary.

All four sermons on Mary can be found linked as the first four entries on this page.

It is very easy to claim to have read someone’s website, and then call them a liar.

Concerning Mary, at least, I have provided ample evidence that you are mistaken.

And knowing the caliber of MarArthur’s character, I have no doubt you are mistaken about all of your statements concerning him.

 

[lak611]

First of all, it would seem that many Catholics think that all MacArthur does is continually preach about the Catholic Church; he does not.

I can count on two hands the number of sermons I have heard him preach about your Church.

That’s funny that a fellow who supposedly does not preach much about the Catholic Church actually has his own little shopping section of his website devoted to how to preach to the Catholic Church. I found it when I checked the link you provided in post #87. gbibooks.org/category2.asp?id=320

 

[sandusky]

Melchoir:

Sandusky,

I used to love MacArthur and listen to him on the way to work every morning. But I have a question, if MacArthur is so concerned with the truth why is he still a Baptist? I still have my MacArthur study Bible. Horrible notes.

He’s not a Baptist.
Melchoir:

This is the same guy who until very recently denied Christ’s eternal Sonship. I am grateful he has turned from that heresy, though. But it was also a pivotal moment for me in understanding the need for councils and a visible church. If a first rate mind like JM’s can get something so fundamental wrong for so long, I would never trust him to accurately understand what Catholics believe or for him to get important Biblical concepts right. And I am not Catholic.

I am glad that he has re-thought that as well. Here is his statement on the
Eternal Sonship issue.

 

[sandusky]

That’s funny that a fellow who supposedly does not preach much about the Catholic Church actually has his own little shopping section of his website devoted to how to preach to the Catholic Church. I found it when I checked the link you provided in post #87. gbibooks.org/category2.asp?id=320

How many of those books are authored by him?

You have not understood what I said; re-read it.

 

[lak611]

How many of those books are authored by him?

You have not understood what I said; re-read it.

Even if he did not write the books, he obviously agrees with the authors who did and feels that his church members should buy and study books that tell them how to preach to Catholics.

 

[sandusky]

Even if he did not write the books, he obviously agrees with the authors who did and feels that his church members should buy and study books that tell them how to preach to Catholics.

You are very observant.

 

[sandusky]

Gottle-of-Geer:

Nor am I trying to attack, so I apologise unreservedly if anything I’ve said has in any way “come over” as an attack, whether on you or Macarthur. I want to clear up misunderstanding, that’s all.

I did not perceive an attack; my perception is the opposite.
Gottle-of-Geer:

Agreed - but none of this affects the doctrine on the Eucharist. Since I already believe what Hebrews says, to quote its statements in reply is unnecessary - they don’t deny or refute or undermine anything the CC believes either.

They do OTOH set forth the uniqueness & finality of the work of Christ. Since this is essential to the Church’s teaching, it is anything but a problem

Actually, I am very curious what a “Barth-affirming TULIP-loving Archeoconservative CathoProt” has to say on that subject.

Please explain.

 

[lak611]

Actually, I am very curious what a “Barth-affirming TULIP-loving Archeoconservative CathoProt” has to say on that subject.
Please explain.

Who is this? Who is Barth? What is an Archeoconservative? How is it possible for him to be both Catholic and Protestant? :whacky:

 

[Church_Militant]

First of all, it would seem that many Catholics think that all MacArthur does is continually preach about the Catholic Church; he does not.

Then perhaps he should shut up about our most holy faith and stick to something that he actually knows.

I can count on two hands the number of sermons I have heard him preach about your Church; and I have found them all to be factual to the best of his ability.

And that excuses either of you? You’re kidding me right?

Secondly, that CD was from a recording of a sermon that was preached shortly after the death of JPII. It was a timely message in that the eyes of the world were focused upon the funeral of the one who, at that time, was the head of The Church

that claims to be the representative of Christ on earth, and the representative of true Christianity.1. No one I know of can indict His Holiness John Paul the Great’s moral life. If Catholics wish to extol his many good works so what? What did Our Lord Himself tell us? (Matthew 7:20) Thus you will know them by their fruits.

It matters not to me and other faithful Catholics whether you share our beliefs about the church or much of anything else.

So far as MacArthur’s sermon is concerned I suggest that it is (at least) in extremely poor taste to exploit the death of the man chosen by God to lead His church here on earth to take that opportunity to bash the Catholic Church and endeavor to corrupt the holy faith of my brothers and sisters. I think the man owes me an apology. (Yeah, right. I see that happenin’. )

It was this Pope as well, who claimed to Mary, that he was Totus Tuus

, totally yours.As am I every single morning for the last 2 years.

Immaculata, Queen and Mother of the Church,
I renew my consecration to you this day and for always,
so that you may use me
for the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus in the whole world.
To this end I offer you all my prayers, actions and sacrifices of this day.

As I watched television coverage of the funeral, I was saddened…

That is not the gospel, and the Catholic Clergy should know that. Each had an opportunity to proclaim the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and none did, at least, not that I saw. Perhaps they are [Edited out because I dislike plugging anti-Catholic propaganda…especially for sale. ]

Yeah, yeah yeah…I don’t wanna hear all that jive. Who are you kidding man? I hear more of the Gospel of Christ in the practice of my Catholic faith than I ever did in all the n-C churches I was ever a part of. You can :crying: to someone else with that stuff Sandusky because (tho you won’t admit it!) the fact is that you think that every time a couple of believers get together you have to have an “altar call” and that you have to “witness” to every soul you meet or your religion is faulty. (Don’t deny it man, I was one of you and I know it’s the truth. Most n-Cs see “witnessing” as the primary function of their religion…but, (as you said) “That is not the gospel”… there is a great deal more to living the Christian life than just asking strangers if they have “been saved”…or arguing with Catholic Christians about what they believe. There’s passages like Matthew 25:31-46.

I frankly don’t really care to hear or see what MacArthur says about Catholic Marian beliefs because 1) I know what we believe and I know the Biblical basis for it and what the church actually teaches is what I believe, and 2) MacArthur cherry picks from a wealth of Catholic Marian writings those statements that best suit his need to find fault with something that if he really understood, he’d shut up, leave it alone, and even more appropriate, convert to the Catholic faith. (Yeah, right…I see that happenin’! )
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Church_Militant]

Those learned Catholic Priests, and Apologists, had no disagreement with the facts MacArthur presented concerning Catholic devotion to Mary.

You may disagree with his understanding, and the conclusions that he reached, but he was factual concerning the RCC teaching and devotion to Mary.
…
It is very easy to claim to have read someone’s website, and then call them a liar.

Concerning Mary, at least, I have provided ample evidence that you are mistaken.

And knowing the caliber of MarArthur’s character, I have no doubt you are mistaken about all of your statements concerning him.

So then instead of being a liar, he’s too dumb to undestand what he’s reading?

Which is it? Is he intentionally misrepresenting what we believe (since he says we worship Mary? right?), or is he just too dumb to understand plain English statements made by Catholics?

Either way, he’s still dead wrong and still makes a big deal out of preaching against the Catholic faith instead of preaching the Gospel of Christ.

Which is it?
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum

 

[sandusky]

Church Militant:

Then perhaps he should shut up about our most holy faith and stick to something that he actually knows.

This is a great country we live in CM, and I am a decorated Navy combat veteran who served on the rivers of South Viet Nam; I served to preserve the right of you, and John MacArthur to freely speak to issues that concern them, or not to speak at all. He, as you, can speak for, or against, whatever he chooses.

CM quotes Sandusky:

I can count on two hands the number of sermons I have heard him preach about your Church; and I have found them all to be factual to the best of his ability.

To which CM replied:

And that excuses either of you? You’re kidding me right?

CM then says:

…the fact is that you think that every time a couple of believers get together you have to have an “altar call” and that you have to “witness” to every soul you meet or your religion is faulty. (Don’t deny it man, I was one of you and I know it’s the truth.

I will deny it.

Here is a link to a MacArthur sermon entitled Altar Calls. You will find him opposed to them, as am I. So you were not “one of me,” you simply have a knack for choosing churches that teach error (I assume from your words that you have changed your mind, and you are now opposed to the error of Altar Calls).

Additionally, here is another book entitled Fool’s Gold, with sections written by a number of pastors, including MacArthur (who is also the editor of the book), opposing Altar Calls.

Above, you misrepresented me, and my church. If misrepresenting people is good for you to do CM, why do make this statement about MacArthur, who is far more meticulous and careful with his facts concerning you than you are with your facts concerning him?
Church Militant:

So then instead of being a liar, he’s too dumb to undestand what he’s reading? Which is it? Is he intentionally misrepresenting what we believe (since he says we worship Mary? right?), or is he just too dumb to understand plain English statements made by Catholics?

At least now you understand that he is not a liar.

With respect to your misrepresenting me, are you too dumb to understand plain English, or just too lazy to check and be certain that what you are saying is true?

I told you last year, that you are consistently wrong in your (mis)representing the faith of others, and as the reason for your consistent error, I said that you were careless in making unsupported statements. You continue to validate my claim.

At least MacArthur, and I, labor diligently not to misrepresent you. I have shown you a strong example of his integrity not to misrepresent, by his asking Catholic Priests and Apologists if the things he said concerning their devotion to Mary were correct. They affirmed that he is correct.

Again, you may disagree with his arguments, and his conclusions, but his facts are right; that is more than I can say for you.
Church Militant:

So far as MacArthur’s sermon is concerned I suggest that it is (at least) in extremely poor taste to exploit the death of the man chosen by God to lead His church here on earth to take that opportunity to bash the Catholic Church and endeavor to corrupt the holy faith of my brothers and sisters. I think the man owes me an apology.

Your Church is in the International Spotlight by its own choice. As such, the RCC subjects itself to scrutiny, and criticism.

Quit blaming everyone for the problems of your Church. They are of Her own making.