Everlasting Life, what does it mean to you?

[tommy4321]

I’ve already said they were somewhat wrong in guessing the end of times. Somewhat because 1914 was a significant year when nation went against nation. No more to say here other then what I mentioned about Jesus taking over the rulership in Heaven as outline in “seven times” Daniel.

I gave a TON of many to the hurricane reliefs efforts (on credit cards) more then I could afford. I am a volunteer in loads of stuff and our house is always open. Why do you questioned me, what do you do to help? (I guess its fair to ask since you asked me).

We run programs at my Sons elementary school and do lots, more then most. Thanks for your concern here. Sorry my post was long but I wanted to make a point about Christian brotherly love, something important to Jesus.

Here is what I think the Revelation is regarding Babylon the Great that is hard to see now on the big boat and why I say not all the members, just leaving the church empty I think it will come to much surprise once the scandals fully unfold and we are seeing attendance going down already as well as collections, the money focus.

Yes the road is narrow and crampted and few will find it, most don’t want to.

Rev 18:4 "And I heard another voice out of Heaven say “Get out of her my people”. “If you do not want to share with her in her sins and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues”, in my opinion.

 

[tommy4321]

carol marie:

Tommy,
You asked:

God is not a name but a title, so why do we always just say God?

What does your son call you? Does he call you Tommy? No, of course not… he calls you Dad probably? Why… when “Dad” is just a title… aren’t you worried that maybe he’s refering to some “other Dad” and not you… HIS ONE TRUE DAD?

See how ridiculous that argument is? YOU know your son… you KNOW he is calling YOU - even though he will only use a “title” his entire life. I am certain when you hear him say “Dad” you never once question his devotion to you.

Now don’t you think if you are able to pull that off… figure that out, with your limited intelligence, how much more so is an all knowing God?

Carol, you were calling God by his name Jehovah earlier in this thread. Why?

 

[tommy4321]

carol marie:

Tommy,

I brought up the question about Mother Theresa & the Pope & all other Catholics around the world because you keep preaching brotherly love and touting all the nice things about the witnesses but either you haven’t been told yet or you’ve failed to appreicate that once you cross over & become a Jehovah’s Witness through baptism, you will be REQUIRED to believe that ALL CATHOLICS (including Mother Theresa) are serving Satan.

Ask the brother who is studying with you what would have happened to Mother Theresa if Armegeddon came before she died. I know the answer to that: She would suffered the wrath of Jehovah because she was not serving Him. Likewise with the Pope and all Catholics - regardless of their devotion.

Now maybe you are saying to yourself… well big deal… so THEY say that… I wouldn’t believe that. I believe Mother Theresa was a wonderful woman. As one who’s been there, done that… let me assure you that as a JW, you are no longer allowed to think for yourself. Having your own “opinion” is NOT an option. If the WT says she was serving Satan… (and they do) she was serving Satan. Case closed.

And don’t think that hearing over & over again that those who die at Armegeddon will suffer the wrath of Jehovah & the birds will eat their flesh until there’s nothing but bones left doesn’t do a number on a person. Is your wife thinking of becoming a JW also? Because how freaked out will your son be to hear on a regular basis that if his Mom doesn’t join the JW’s she’s going to die at Armegeddon - which by the way is any day now.

This is how twisted it is: I used to pray to Jehovah that my ENTIRE family (who were not JWs) would die in like a car accident so they wouldn’t be here when Armegeddon came.

At least in the Catholic Church we leave eternal judgements up to God - knowing that only He can know a person’s heart. There is always hope…

You guys are hard to keep up with.

She is studying with the Witnesses too. Everybody beneifts from it in my family and it’s not a bad thing. Why do we make them out to be this evil group of people who enjoy disfellowshipping? It’s not like that.

I do believe we are in hard times right now and in Satan’s world until he is run out by Jesus. Mother Theresa was a good caring person and I will not call her Satan like you want me to. I refuse. It’s the false teachings about idols, praying to saints, calling a man leader “Father” to name a few.

How would a Catholic feel good about calling someone a name like having limited intelligence. Is that something that would make Jesus happy?

I found out that the 18 year old who was shaking it up was only out for about six months, until she cleaned up. She back at Bible study already and moved back in at home, not such a long term thing. Peace

 

[carol_marie]

Tommy, You said:

How would a Catholic feel good about calling someone a name like having limited intelligence. Is that something that would make Jesus happy?

Are you refering to my post where I said “you - with your limited intelligence don’t have a problem with your son calling you Dad… why should God who is All - Knowing?”

I didn’t mean YOU specifically have “limited intelligence” - I meant that “mankind” has limited intelligence - compared to God.

I was certainly not - nor would I ever - call you a name.

However, I am though with this thread. I feel like I’ve made my points perfectly clear… and most you’ve not addressed.

You quote the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society - almost word for word and I do not benefit from it as I’ve heard it all before. I have made my choice. I left what I believe was a false religion based on the imagination of one man - Charles T. Russell. I have rejected his claims that he was the “faithful slave” that God had chosen (he used God - not the name Jehovah) to be his “spokesman” on earth. I likewise reject all of his followers that coninue to insist that they alone speak for Jehovah and that all other religions including the Catholic Church are servents of Satan.

I have embraced the Catholic Church which has been in existance for 2,000 years. I embrace the Jesus of the Bible - who is God - and who died on the cross for my sins so that I might have everlasting life in heaven with Him, all all the Saints that have gone before me.
I look so forward to my worship every week at mass and I am overjoyed that I am able to share in the Eucharist - the true body & blood - as Jesus himself told of in John chapter 6.

I wish you well.
CM

 

[tommy4321]

Carol and Catsrus:

I thank the both of you for your time. I really believe you both love Jesus and I commend you for it.

I do think Jehovah has certain things we wants some to accomplish and for now this IS the path we feel right about.

I don’t see much on my 176 posts that quote the Watchtower (I do like reading it ) other than what I put up to demonstrate Christian brotherly love and what Jesus wanted. T

P.S., do take a look at these three scriptures about Satan being the “ruler” of our world. He is, at least for now until Jesus’ return.

John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world: now the ruler of the world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of this world is coming. And he has no hold on me
John 16:11 Then concering judgement, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

I wish all peace in the love of Christ. May Jehovah God receive due praise and worship as the almighty One and his soveriegnty be gained over the evil. Sincerely, Tom

 

[tommy4321]

carol marie:

I embrace the Jesus of the Bible - who is God -

I have to point out one truth here. Jesus is the “Son” of God, the Father. The Father is “God”. They are “distinct”.

 

[catsrus]

P.S., do take a look at these three scriptures about Satan being the “ruler” of our world. He is, at least for now until Jesus’ return.

John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world: now the ruler of the world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of this world is coming. And he has no hold on me
John 16:11 Then concering judgement, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

No one argues this, only that we are still called, more than ever, to minister to our fellow man in his affliction.

I’ve already said they were somewhat wrong in guessing the end of times.

How can God be “somewhat wrong” since He alledgedly gave this info to Brooklyn?

I gave a TON of many to the hurricane reliefs efforts (on credit cards) more then I could afford. I am a volunteer in loads of stuff and our house is always open.

Good for you! And I sincerely mean that.
Only know this; once you become a full fledged jw, this assistance to “the world” must be stopped or done in secret. From then on, you will only be helping fellow jws since everyone else is doomed anyway.

I have to point out one truth here. Jesus is the “Son” of God, the Father. The Father is “God”. They are “distinct”.

Truth? Who’s truth - as if I need ask.
tommy, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

One note: The Holy Catholic Church was built on Christ and His appointed, Peter 2000 years ago and has stood intact for the entire time.
The wt was built on a man, Charles Taze Russell, a convicted and conflicted human person, a mere 129 years ago.
Given a choice, I’ll stick with Christ every time.

 

[At_His_Feet]

Tommy - first of all I want to say that I hope the move goes/is going well, and that like catsrus, I respect and admire your volunteering efforts.

You said - As far as the tree dream, Daniel is about phrophecies, not about their current events happening entirely then. That is why they called Daniel a Prophet.

Not everything in the book of Daniel has a fulfillment in the far future. Take for example the “handwriting on the wall” of Daniel ch 5. Here there was:
a sign - the hand writing, (in ch 4 it was a dream)
**a king - **Belshesazzar (in ch 4 it was Nebuchadnezzar) and
an interpretation which consitsted of a prophecy - of what was going to happen to THAT KING, Belzhezzar. (in ch 4, Nebuchadnezzar)

Does the WT Society interpret a “second fulfillment” on the “handwriting on the wall” in ch 5? No. So even they say that not everything in Daniel has a future, or so-called “second” fulfillment.

The “handwriting on the wall (ch 5)” fulfillment (emphasis added):

Daniel 5:26-30 This is the interpretation of the matter: MENE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; TEKEL, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; PERES, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians."…That very night Belshaz’zar the Chalde’an king was slain.

The “tree dream” fulfillment (ch 4)

Daniel 4:20,22.28 The tree you saw… it is you, O king… All this came upon King Nebuchadnez’zar.

Period. No more, no less. A person can get themselves into a lot of speculative jams if they say that everything in the Old Testament should ALWAYS refer to something future of our day. Daniel explicitly says that it was fulfilled on Nebuchadenzzar; and the JWs have built an elaborate date-setting system on it. (Does the dream that Moses and Aaron interpreted for Pharoah in Exodus have a “second fulfillment”? Why not?)

And concerning their attempt to use the tree dream in Daniel ch 4 to predict the date of Christ’s return (“invisibly” in 1914, although they at first said that he had returned “invisibly” in 1874 and that 1914 would be Armageddon…): according to the following scriptures - are there any prophecies anywhere in the Bible that can be used to predict the date of Christ’s return?:

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.
Matthew 24:42 …you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Matthew 24:44 …the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
Luke 12:40 the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour
Mark 13:33 Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
Mark 13:35 Watch therefore – for you do not know when the master of the house will come

There certainly are a lot of things to learn from the book of Daniel, but according to the above scriptures, the date of Christ’s return is not one of them. It seems like the above scriptures would stop anyone in the first place from trying to find the date of Christ’s return in scripture.

A lot can be learned by looking into the 19th Century Adventist milieu that CT Russell came out of. Date setting seemed to be “all the rage”. Here is an excellent page on it:
catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/jwhistory.html

 

[tommy4321]

I haven’t been on the computer for the last few days and was ready to let this thread fall down to the archives, but I am not for one minute going to let it end on this negative untrue note.

Jesus Christ is our leader and yours, we are Christians, your Catholics were studying with the Witnesses . I don’t care one bit about Russell or the pope, their both Men who are imperfect. Jesus is perfect and he is my leader. I didn’t even know his middle name and frankly don’t care he is a man who has fault but I will tell HE DID NOT LIKE HIS PEOPLE TO MAKE PREDICTIONS according to material I can quote. Can a pope be a leader? Can a bunch or Cardinals be leaders? Can they all claim to be God’s only chosen group? Is focus on religion more important then true worship and praise to God? Can one religion claim to be without any fault? (Like the 100,000 molest incidents in Satans world). Do you think someone who devouts hours to Jesus, their leader, is going to be ignored in the last days because they weren’t in the correct religion. Religion can be dangerous with false teachings and many of the Scriptures are ignored like not calling anyone Father in a religious sense. Why is that scripture never read at mass? Following what is in the Bible cannot be dangerous. It’s beneficial and I resent how you make our kind group of people out to be something other then they are. You ought to try to bring your Bible to church, its sort of fun having it

Don’t you know Witnesses are helping people spiritually all day long learn about the Bible. They don’t give a shi… about money moving ahead financially, they devoute their lives to preaching the good word in the Bible and helping lost souls.

The reason I choice to post here is I know Witnesses are hated here, it’s obvious and frankly I don’t mind. Don’t you know their leader is Jesus. Can you not see that?

They don’t get paid for the time they spend ministering in the field. The brother I study with took his his wife and moved to Africa for a year to minister. I respect him for it and I think it was pretty brave of him. How could that be a bad thing? Doesn’t seem greedy to me.

And yes, we can get in that same old debate about the Trinity, three Gods wrapped in one as a mystery, but theres too much here on that over killed subject anyway, so why go there. My point is that I don;t think the Son of God would ever want his Father to not have the soveriegnty as the Almighty One versus the Mighty One (Jesus).

We love Jesus and know he created us through his Father that came first. God must win his soveriernty back over the evil one before times will change. Peace, Love and Hope, blessings, tommy

 

[catsrus]

The reason I choice to post here is I know Witnesses are hated here, it’s obvious and frankly I don’t mind.

Tommy, I am sorry that you conclude that jws are “hated” here. The word “hate” is much overused these days. It has become an inflammatory substitute word for disagreement.
I don’t “hate” jws and always receive them with charity at my door. I appreciate what they are trying to do, admire them for their tenacity, and have enjoyed speaking with them as the ones who come are always respectful and pleasent. They DO seem surprised that I know The Bible but that fact usually just prolongs the conversations.
However, I have the right and a duty as a practicing, believing Catholic to disagree 100% with their inaccurate “theology” and I do. It is not the witnesses themselves whom we dislike, it is the wt for leading them down a heretical road and binding them to it through fear ,(yes, I do mean FEAR) lies and conditions of behavior (if found out!) under a veneer of love and brotherhood and acceptance. That is a travesty of Christianity.
Like Carol Marie, I too am finished with this thread.
I wish you well and hope that you come back to Holy Mother Church when your eyes have been opened. Her doors are always open.

 

[tommy4321]

It’s OK with me if you or someone else wants to put one more up before we close this thread. We studied from a book about Family Happiness from the Watchtower that was entirely scriptual based. Take a look at a sample here. What is so wrong with these scriptual study aides?

watchtower.org/library/t21/enjoy.htm

 

[Pentecost2005]

tommy4321:

What I speak about comes from the Bible, nothing more, nothing less.

And that’s your whole problem. You place entirely too much trust in your ability to make sense of it by yourself.

 

[tommy4321]

Pentecost2005:

And that’s your whole problem. You place entirely too much trust in your ability to make sense of it by yourself.

Ya Vault! Thats why I guess some learning aids are OK that are scriptual based.

Here’s what I did. I stopped playing the news and music in the car for about three months and went through the entire Bible on 64 CD’s. Then replayed the ones I needed to learn more from.

It was great, especially the quotes in the NT from Jesus, the prophecies and their fullfillment and towards the end of the Book there was this pretty significant one in in Rev. 18:4 that made better sense after listening to the entire Book and opened my eyes to something I wanted to ignore

I don’t think it is really possible to spend too much time making sense of scriptures. There is some pretty important stuff we learn from the word of God.

 

[patshea1128]

Mystophilus:

I have no idea, and it does not really bother me at all. While I am interested in most aspects of Christianity, the whole afterlife seems to be stunningly irrelevant. It will happen to me when it happens, one way or another.

So, I cannot answer your questions here at all. Sorry.

If we love them, we will miss them.

Is all of that really Eve’s fault? If God is omnipotent, then God allows all things that happen, and cannot lose sovereignty. If God is not omnipotent, God is merely a creature like us, and not God.

See above, under “omnipotent”.

The Bible is about this life. Christianity is about service, not reward.

With all due respect, that is a pretty lame answer. I believe God gave us minds to pursue thoughts of precisely what the “afterlife” will be like. What if we are supposed to be literally preparing the way for Christ as well as metaphorically speaking. Isn’t it incumbent upon ourselves to ponder such things? Intellectually lazy individuals wouldn’t worry what eternal life and heaven are like. They, in my opinion, are simply going to let others worry about it for them. But that is my opinion and I really don’t mean to sound like I’m berating you for your thoughts. Has anyone actually checked the credentials of Father Serpa? Just curious. You can never be too sure about these websites on the internet. I have a brother that has been turned into a heretic by believing everything he reads on the internet about the Catholic Church.

 

[scylla]

I just wanted to correct a possible mis-understanding that you might have Tommy, of Catholic readings. Catholics read the Bible in a cycle in order to cover the Bible and to make it relevant to the time and other readings. Sometimes some non-catholics spread the rumor that we skip parts of the Bible and that is easily refuted, but most people don’t look into it.

You stated that we never read, “call no man father” Matt 23? Well you are in for a treat, if you attend Mass on Sunday Oct 30th this year, because as part of the liturgical year we will read that particular passage of scripture. It is commonly attested (incorrectly) that we never read this passage of scripture, so I decided to look it up. Here is a link if you would like to verify and if you want to seek the truth, feel free to attend Mass on Sunday Oct 30th.

usccb.org/nab/103005.htm

If you would like to start a thread on this I would be happy to participate.
God Bless
Scylla

I for one, am looking forward to the beatific vision, I also love the life I am blessed with, right now.

 

[tommy4321]

Hi Scylla:

Thanks for the correction. I cut and pasted a passage here from your link:

You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.
Call no one on earth your father;
you have but one Father in heaven.

I really do believe us humans, Gods chosen ones who he loves so much wants us to be all equal brothers and sisters and the soveriegny belongs to only Jesus and his Father, who created us.

As far as a new thread I think I am threaded out. Plus, you people have been pretty good with puting up with my contrasting views for a few months now. I see so much on what is called a JW here and wanted to see if it possible to shake up my beliefs at all.

Blessings, tommy

 

[Tibbar]

tommy4321:

What does it mean to you about everlasting life? Are we in spirit or physical form or perhaps some in physical and some spiritual? What is the New Heaven and the New Earth and how do they differ?

What about our loved ones, do we remember them? If we do remember them and they do not gain salvation will it make us unhappy if they are not there and we will miss them? Who will we see, Jesus, Moses, Noah and John?

Who would you like to see and what would you ask them? Will we be with Jesus, new companions, and/or family members. I definately do not know this answer as it is one of life’s mysteries.

The Earth was intended for everlasting life until Adam sinned and life spans were 950 years originally. That’s also how long Noah lived and does go against the evolution theory. Once Satan is driven out from the Earth and his influences are gone, we will have paradise Earth restored (or a new one created) with true believers of Jesus Christ for 1,000 years while Satan is locked up in the Abyss according to Revelation. God must regain his sovereingty that Eve allow the evil one to gain and the issue of God’s sovereingty over the evil one is why in my opinion God didn’t just start over with Noah creating the first man again in Adams place.

The evil one is getting what he can before he is locked up in the abyss and that is who is to blame for all the pain and suffering we are going through due to disasters. terrorism, war, starvation and troubles that plague the human family and our times are much worse than they were twenty years ago. Are things getting better or worse?

The 144,000 actual number of the holy ones, priests and heavenly rulers with Jesus in Heaven (new Heaven) for all prophecy in the Bible has come true. The “great crowd” in Revelation would refer to those who may have been defiled, but repented and are destined for the New Earth to live under Jesus’ rule under his heavenly government of holy ones.

The believers in Jesus Christ who repented of their sins and changed their ways excersing faith in Jesus our King, will have a beautiful restored life in an Earthly paradise with no Satan influences (New Earth).

The scripture quote that I was able to find on the New Earth and New Heaven comes from Isaiah 66:22 taken from the New Jerusalem Bible as follows: “For as the “new” heavens and the “new earth” I am making will endure before me, declares Yahweh, so will your race and name endure”. My question here is what the new earth and Heaven He is making for us or restoring? Maybe the New Heaven is the Heaven existing after Satan is hurled down to earth with all his demons and fallen angels. Perhaps some may know more then I know about this?

Throughout my Christian study of the Bible, I have noticed that there is not a lot known on the topic of the new Heaven and the new Earth as stated in Isaiah Chapter 66. I hear quite a bit of different variations about the afterlife, but really cannot gain a lot about the general view of what New Heaven and New Earth means as stated by prophecy in Isaiah Chapter 66. Set aside religious views and think if you can only about what is stated in the Bible about everlasting life, the new heaven, the new earth, the ruling class and the great crowd and how they differ. Peace and Love, tommy

To me, it means that I hope one day be resurrected in a heavenly body to become what God had intended me to become, and that I will dwell together with all those who accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and as Savior in a place where there will be no more sickness, and sadness, only joy.

If there is no everlasting life in a resurrected body, then our faith is all in vain. If our faith is all in vain, then we are all still dead in our sins and we are all doomed to eternal oblivion.

 

[scylla]

Catholics read scripture in context and that passage in context refers to humility, not to a prohibition in calling someone father as Jesus Himself did this. If you would like to discuss this I am always happy to start a thread to clear things up.
A priest is a servant and we call him father, as we accept each other to be part of our family. And I do agree with you we are all equal, and we should all treat each other with love and respect.

I can understand, you are probably threaded out. It is a lot of work keeping up on these threads and trying to respond to everyone. You have been pretty gracious and persevering admirably.

May God Bless you and when you want to get back on the threads I will welcome you back.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[tommy4321]

Kindest regards Scylla:

Your posts are always so kind and soothing. When the threads become active I bring the labtop out in the field (like I am now) to keep up in between stuff and believe me I felt bad last weekend when someone said I didn’t answer their questions when I was trying to put the home up for sale.

I do not want to be disrespectful in anyway to the church leaders. I was real close to the pastor at my former parish and felt really connected to him. Even though my six year old at the time asked me if he was God, I guess that was alright at his age.

There was a series of events that happened (I feel for a good reason to draw us closer to God) that I have not told you about and it had to do with that group of 20% of volunteers who do 80% of the work and unfortunely we are in times where people sometimes turn on the ones acting the meakest. I won’t go into that much more unless you really want to know. It really made me get on this kick about Christian brotherly love that you may be able to tell that on am on. Thats what attracted me to the Wtnesses, it was the love they had for each other and no value at all on money and their intensity in learning the Bible inside out.

I was wondering if you may be able to run your search and see if these scriptures below are being read. I bet they are. A big mystery I want to know as the Bible comes to a climax in the last three chapters is why John, the only surviving Apostle who is over 90 years old, has an Angel come to him and gives him these words about something that occured in 607BC and how it could not have a major phrophecy considering where it shows in the concluding last few chapters.

I don’t see the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BC when the Babylonians who were following false teachings being something that would be a revelation because it had already occured 700 years prior to John penning what the Angel told him. If it had already happened in 607 BC with the fall of Jerusalem and there was no future relevance wouldn’t this then be insignificant. I am just curious if it is being read, perhaps it is. P.S. I think God has a plan for All who erxercise faith in him and I do think many of you posters here like for example At His Feet and Catsrus have a TON of Bible knowledge and respect you for it.

Heres the one I am wondering about.

*Revelation 18:1-4

1 After these things I saw another angel descending from heaven, with great authority; and the earth was lighted up from his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”

4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. *

 

[tommy4321]

tommy4321:

A big mystery I want to know as the Bible comes to a climax in the last three chapters is why John, the only surviving Apostle who is over 90 years old, has an Angel come to him and gives him these words about something that occured in 607BC and how it could not have a major phrophecy considering where it shows in the concluding last few chapters.

I don’t see the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BC when the Babylonians who were following false teachings being something that would be a revelation because it had already occured 700 years prior to John penning what the Angel told him. If it had already happened in 607 BC with the fall of Jerusalem and there was no future relevance wouldn’t this then be insignificant. I am just curious if it is being read, perhaps it is. .