Everlasting Life, what does it mean to you?

[scylla]

Hello Tommy,
I just got back to the forums, I had trouble last night even seeing Catholic.com, I haven’t looked around yet to see if this was just me or did anyone else have trouble.
When I get a chance I will look up to see if that particular passage is read and when. I had to look in the back of an old Bible I have with all the readings listed then search that back with another site that lists readings for each day, then match that up with the USCCB site. I don’t know of a search engine that works with the listings of readings for the day, I tried but maybe I am not doing it right.
It was much easier to find the Gospel as we concentrate on that, I was involved once in a church that didn’t and would read mostly Romans and Apocalyptic readings, but I only attended that church a couple times. Gospel readings are the highlight of the liturgy of the Word in the Mass and they are easier to find.
So I will look it up and see this afternoon to check which day we read that.

I know that many adventist type religions have attributed that passage and some others similar to that to the Catholic Church. They really have to twist and stretch the text to do it, a la Dave Hunt in A Woman rides the Beast. I read some of this book the other day, my brother has this. He is part of a small extreme church which is pretty anti-catholic by his pastors interpretation. If I get a chance to get a good used copy, maybe I will read it closer and see if I can write an essay on it.

Something you wrote struck me, as I have been attending a parish meeting which decides on programs for the church. I have had some frustration at these meetings, maybe for some of the same reasons you have or similar. If you want to PM me feel free to or start a thread. I might start a thread later on if so inspired.

I much prefer a stress on attaining the beatific vision, in spending eternity in paradise with God in Heaven. That is what everlasting life means to me.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[patshea1128]

Would it really suck if we already are in heaven? Suppose you die, your body lies dead for 100 years, then your body is “resurrected” or brought back to life only to discover you are still on planet earth. Would you be disappointed? Would you ask the person standing there who brought you back to life to send you back to the depths of the earth until you arrive at the “real” heaven? WOW! I’ll bet that’s a decision you never believe you will ever have to make!!!

 

[tommy4321]

tommy4321:

I was wondering if you may be able to run your search and see if these scriptures below are being read. I bet they are. A big mystery I want to know as the Bible comes to a climax in the last three chapters is why John, the only surviving Apostle who is over 90 years old, has an Angel come to him and gives him these words about something that occured in 607BC and how it could not have a major phrophecy considering where it shows in the concluding last few chapters.

I don’t see the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BC when the Babylonians who were following false teachings being something that would be a revelation because it had already occured 700 years prior to John penning what the Angel told him. If it had already happened in 607 BC with the fall of Jerusalem and there was no future relevance wouldn’t this then be insignificant. I am just curious if it is being read, perhaps it is. P.S. I think God has a plan for All who erxercise faith in him and I do think many of you posters here like for example At His Feet and Catsrus have a TON of Bible knowledge and respect you for it.

Heres the one I am wondering about.

*Revelation 18:1-4

1 After these things I saw another angel descending from heaven, with great authority; and the earth was lighted up from his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”

4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. *

I was wondering if anyone may be able to run a search to see if Rev 18:1-4 is being read over the three year period that Catholics go through the entire Bible and if so, what the sermon says about the revelation and it’s meaning where the Angel came to John similar to the reading cited below on Matthew 8-10.
*Reading I
Mal 1:14b-2:2b, 8-10

A great King am I, says the LORD of hosts,
and my name will be feared among the nations.
And now, O priests, this commandment is for you:
If you do not listen,
if you do not lay it to heart,
to give glory to my name, says the LORD of hosts,
I will send a curse upon you
and of your blessing I will make a curse.
You have turned aside from the way,
and have caused many to falter by your instruction;
you have made void the covenant of Levi,
says the LORD of hosts.
I, therefore, have made you contemptible
and base before all the people,
since you do not keep my ways,
but show partiality in your decisions.
Have we not all the one father?
Has not the one God created us?
Why then do we break faith with one another,
violating the covenant of our fathers?

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 131:1, 2, 3

R. In you, Lord, I have found my peace.
O LORD, my heart is not proud,
nor are my eyes haughty;
I busy not myself with great things,
nor with things too sublime for me.
R. In you, Lord, I have found my peace.
Nay rather, I have stilled and quieted
my soul like a weaned child.
Like a weaned child on its mother’s lap,
so is my soul within me.
R. In you, Lord, I have found my peace.
O Israel, hope in the LORD,
both now and forever.
R. In you, Lord, I have found my peace.

Reading II
1 Thes 2:7b-9, 13

Brothers and sisters:
We were gentle among you, as a nursing mother cares…

Gospel
Mt 23:1-12

Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying,
“The scribes and the Pharisees
have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you,
but do not follow their example.
For they preach but they do not practice.
They tie up heavy burdens hard to carry
and lay them on people’s shoulders,
but they will not lift a finger to move them.
All their works are performed to be seen.
They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.
They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues,
greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’
As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’
You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.
Call no one on earth your father;
you have but one Father in heaven.
Do not be called ‘Master’;
you have but one master, the Christ.
The greatest among you must be your servant.
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled;
but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”*

 

[patshea1128]

tommy4321:

I was wondering if anyone may be able to run a search to see if Rev 18:1-4 is being read over the three year period that Catholics go through the entire Bible and if so, what the sermon says about the revelation and it’s meaning where the Angel came to John similar to the reading cited below on Matthew

You can go to the Vatican website and read the book of Revelation with the “official” interpretation of the church from there. I’m going to do it myself right now. For the truth about Catholicism go to: www.vatican.va

 

[tommy4321]

patshea1128:

You can go to the Vatican website and read the book of Revelation with the “official” interpretation of the church from there. I’m going to do it myself right now. For the truth about Catholicism go to: www.vatican.va

There wasn’t anything there on the interretation on rev 18:1-4 that I could find.

 

[tommy4321]

How do you like my new signature message on the bottom?

 

[TOP]

Hello Tommy,
I was reading this thread and a thought came to me. Have you been confirmed in the Catholic Church?
Thanks Tim

 

[b_justb]

It doesn’t matter what everlasting life means to me. All humans have everlasting life. Where one lives out this everlasting life is another question.

May we have God’s grace and see that beatific vision.

 

[tommy4321]

b_justb:

It doesn’t matter what everlasting life means to me. All humans have everlasting life. Where one lives out this everlasting life is another question.

May we have God’s grace and see that beatific vision.

All humans have everlasting life? I believe Adam returned to dust and ceased to exist? Everlasting life is a conditional prospect afforded to us similar to how it was conditional to Adam.

God told Adam if he ate from the fruit of knowledge, to know the difference from good and evil he will positively die. The serpent, the father of the lie, told Eve, you will positively NOT die. A lie, and they both returned to dust, where they came from. Their souls ceased to exist.

 

[Lillith]

tommy4321:

All humans have everlasting life? I believe Adam returned to dust and ceased to exist? Everlasting life is a conditional prospect afforded to us similar to how it was conditional to Adam.

God told Adam if he ate from the fruit of knowledge, to know the difference from good and evil he will positively die. The serpent, the father of the lie, told Eve, you will positively NOT die. A lie, and they both returned to dust, where they came from. Their souls ceased to exist.

So…do you think that everyone returned to dust thereafter? Moses? Abraham? Ellijah? I think not. After all…Jesus did talk with Elijah and Moses…remember? God meant there bodies would return to dust, before they had glorified bodies…like Jesus promised we would have after he restored us by the cross.

 

[tommy4321]

TOP:

Hello Tommy,
I was reading this thread and a thought came to me. Have you been confirmed in the Catholic Church?
Thanks Tim

Hey Tim: Yep, did the whole thing. Confirmation and in fact I attended Catholic School in Cupertino California during my elementary years. I am studying with the Witnesses because I have learned so many truths and feel real connected now to God, Jesus and several things in the Bible I didn’t see before.

I think the members of the Catholic church are awsome people and I love them dearly. I spend time here for sort of a strange reason. It’s like this. If you were on a Jumbo Jet (the jet but not the people perhaps as they still have the ressurection for ALL who exercise faith) and figured it was going down and you really thought that, you would want to run up and down the aisle of that plane and let everyone one know. Thats why I am here and I know most people don’t believe me, but I will persuvere in what I see as truths as cited in my 196 posts because I thinks there is a great veil that we are blind to in praising the true God, religious pegan holidays we choose to ignore that offend God, praise going to church leaders (i.e. pope) versus God, idols in God’s house that we read in the OT offends him, the narrow and crampted path that few will find, the events of the holocaust and mistakes that both Pope Pius the XI and XII made (thou shall not kill), 100,000 incidents of clergy abuse and masses being misled to name a few.

I honestly believe the masses are mislead and I was in the group. Catholics don’t like to hear Jehovah’s name (sanctify his name Matt ch.6) and take issue that his name is mentioned in the NT (rejecting his name) in the Witness study Bible and it doesn’t make sense why this would be an issue since it’s His name.

I also believe the church is wealthy and has a lot of money and asks the members to give too much that stays withinn the church as opposed to going to the needy and I did the books and 90% of the collection stays within the Catholic organization, something I didn’t know. One billion followers is not a narrow and crampted path in my opinion.

The Vatican had created their own nation and Jesus spoke out against following a nation. In 1927 Pope Pius XI suring facist Italy supported taking over a nation and killing because they supported slavery (thou shall not kill). Attendees don’t bring a study Bible directly to Mass. Revelation 18:1-4 is not being read and there is no opinion on this revelation among the church other then it already happened during the fall of Jerusalm in 607 BC, before an Angel came to John and he penned it in 90A.C as the last surviving Apostle.

When I grew up in the Catholic church the priest told me to repeat about 10 hail Mary’s at confession (praying directly to a saint) and Jesus said the only way come to his Father is directly through Him, another false teaching the religion is following. These are to name a few of my findings about false teachings that I don’t expect much support here and will not be afraid to express “my opinion”. Peace, Love and happiness, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

Lillith:

So…do you think that everyone returned to dust thereafter? Moses? Abraham? Ellijah? I think not. After all…Jesus did talk with Elijah and Moses…remember? God meant there bodies would return to dust, before they had glorified bodies…like Jesus promised we would have after he restored us by the cross.

Nope, they will be among God’s chosen people. Just the ones like Adam who violated God’s conditional promise and submit to Satan and do not sincerely repent will “positively” die as we read in Genesis. Remember Jesus even told the criminal hanging next to Him he would see him in paradise. It didn’t apppear this guy did anything good in his life, but he exercised faith in Jesus. I bet he didn’t even go to temples for worship.

Adam returned to dust and ceased to exist! The road is narrow and crampted and few will find it.

 

[Lillith]

tommy4321:

Nope, they will be among God’s chosen people. Just the ones like Adam who violated God’s conditional promise and submit to Satan and do not sincerely repent will “positively” die as we read in Genesis. Remember Jesus even told the criminal hanging next to Him he would see him in paradise. It didn’t apppear this guy did anything good in his life, but he exercised faith in Jesus. I bet he didn’t even go to temples for worship.

Adam returned to dust and ceased to exist! The road is narrow and crampted and few will find it.

So…do JW not believe in Hell? Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[scylla]

I admire your perseverence, I just was browsing the threads and saw that this thread was still alive. Wow, thank you for caring so much, it is impressive.

You threw out a lot of things in those last posts which as I have said in other posts kind of a shotgun effect.9Using Jimmy Akins analogy here) Instead of focusing on a specific subject it just kinda splatters everywhere. Just to cause damage and not to really focus on a subject. In order to address all those things we would probably have to start multiple threads. Which is common with hit and run posters here on CAF. I am pretty sure that wasn’t your intent, you just wanted to make a point, right? There are answers to every one of your points there right here on the forums, so I will ask my question regarding everlasting life and Jehovahs Witnesses.

I do have some questions about the 144,000, if I do read that passage carefully it is talking about celibate Jewish males, so am I confused? Are the Jehovah’s Witnesses divided up into 12 tribes or is this talking about the Jews?

I have to go do some housecalls I can come back later and check on this.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[tommy4321]

Lillith:

So…do JW not believe in Hell? Am I understanding this correctly?

Hell would mean when you loose of ever gaining salvation. It would be like Adam when you cease to exist and return to dust.

It would not be this feiry place where you burn and are tormented by God for eternity. It is not a place where you go, it’s just that you can’t “get back” to a state of being afforeded everlasting life when Christ returns and our actions are judged in his book of life.

 

[Lillith]

tommy4321:

Hell would mean when you loose of ever gaining salvation. It would be like Adam when you cease to exist and return to dust.

It would not be this feiry place where you burn and are tormented by God for eternity. It is not a place where you go, it’s just that you can’t “get back” to a state of being afforeded everlasting life when Christ returns and our actions are judged in his book of life.

To a JW…what does Jesus mean when he warns of the fires of Gehenna? This is referenced over and over again…lets take Matt 5:22 for one instance…

1. What I say to you is this: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.

BTW, believe it or not my dad doesn’t believe in a firey Hell either, and he believes that everyone ceases to exist and returns to dust…he’s an athiest.

On a side note (not aimed at anyone in particular)…what Jesus is talking about here…that includes talking on the internet

 

[tommy4321]

scylla:

You threw out a lot of things in those last posts which as I have said in other posts kind of a shotgun effect…

I do have some questions about the 144,000, if I do read that passage carefully it is talking about celibate Jewish males, so am I confused? Are the Jehovah’s Witnesses divided up into 12 tribes or is this talking about the Jews?

Sorry about that Scylla, I tried concluding in that posts what I believe is wrong in the big ship. As I stated it is probably not right to fire out a scattering, but was kind of waiting to put up a sumerization what I believe after hanging her for a while and what I can gather to be accurate. I am definately not perfect, especially in my approach sometimes and Paul says to be gentle. I am sorry.

The Witnesses by all means do not make up the entire heavenly class. I find from sitting through their meetings the study of what is written in the Bible to be very accurate and they have mostly mild, gentle people as part of the congregation. I am only this student trying to make sense of what the Bible is telling us and I see what the scriptures say in the Bible different and not so much in past tense like I used to. I think Revelation is playing out right not and the world disasters tell me we are well into Revelation now.

The ruling class is made up in my opinion of Saints like Paul (who repented from nasty stuff he did early on). Catholics are in there who learned true teachings about praise to God. It is people who did not defile themselves to earthly desires. It’s the loyal group who form an earthly goverment in unity with our ruler, Jesus Christ. It is an actual number of 144,000. This is 12,000 from twelve 10 tribes of Isreal and 24,000 from a larger trive, perhaps the Levi’s, I can’t remember exactly where it shows in the Bible, but it does name the tribes. 1Chronicle 1:1-4 is amazing how the it links the tribes back to Noah and right to Adam. It has amazing detail sowing how one group were craftsman, others Potters ect. and the arguement can be made that it is not made up from men that the linkage does goe back through Jesus, to David, to Abraham, to Noah and to Adam.

I cannot say who is in the ruling class cause I do not know. I would bet that the Apostles are, kings (Solomon, David) probably Daniel, Moses and maybe Noah (it was was forgiven for his defilement with wine in his older age, which I would bet he was). Then perhaps Mother Theresa, yes I said that, maybe she followed some false teachings, but I am sure with her acts that she would probably rule along with Christ. Yes, that statement did come fram a Witness Bible student. It’s the government of Christ that is the 144,000 ruling class. They will replace the nation ruling class. The Vatican is a nation and did make some huge mistakes. Sorry for any bashing in my previous post I am very imperfect I will admit and I don’t plan on being in the ruling class, I just want to be in in the ordinarry class of those exercising faith daily in out King, Jesus.

I wanted to put up just a few more items I found about the Vatican nation weekness in searching through the web to support my last one with the scattered summaries: Here they are:

*In Fascist Italy, on February 11, 1929, the Lateran Treaty was signed by Mussolini making Vatican City a sovereign state. Pope Pius XI claimed that he had “given Italy back to God, and God back to Italy”. Then six years later in October of 1935 Italy invades Abyssinia, claiming that is was “a barbarous land which still practices slavery” which was not condemned by the Vatican.

Secretary Maglione did not share his terrible knowledge about the murder of the Jews with anyone outside the Vatican; nor were any of the other details about the Holocaust made known to the world. Thus, the policy to conceal information about genocide, which began in Croatia and Slovakia, continued when all European Jews began to be murdered. The reports about the Holocaust that the Vatican would continue to receive from the middle of 1943 to the end of 1944 it kept to itself. The German ambassador to the Vatican wrote that although Rome had always been considered a good listening post for diplomats, there was actually little current information. This was true; an absence of communication characterized the highest levels of the hierarchy. A German bishop complained in 1941 that the country’s bishops had heard nothing from Rome, nothing from Nuncio Orsenigo, and little from each other.49 In the same year, two other German bishops, having heard that 10,000 Jews would be sent from Austria to the General Government in Poland, asked each other “whether the episcopacy should intervene for them out of humanitarian concern or whether this must be left up to Rome to do.”50 Catholic bishops felt the need of a coordinated policy.*

 

[tommy4321]

Lillith:

To a JW…what does Jesus mean when he warns of the fires of Gehenna? This is referenced over and over again…lets take Matt 5:22 for one instance…

1. What I say to you is this: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.

BTW, believe it or not my dad doesn’t believe in a firey Hell either, and he believes that everyone ceases to exist and returns to dust…he’s an athiest.

On a side note (not aimed at anyone in particular)…what Jesus is talking about here…that includes talking on the internet

Do you really believe our God wants people to burn in a fiery Hell, no He is a loving God. The Internet, yes it is full of influences that I am sure that Jesus would not support. My following is very much against Internet forums and at his point I am only a student and a free agent. My summary is up and this is all I have to say, but will check periodically if you want to ask me anything. Praise Jehovah through his Son, Jesus, tommy

 

[Lillith]

tommy4321:

Do you really believe our God wants people to burn in a fiery Hell, no He is a loving God. The Internet, yes it is full of influences that I am sure that Jesus would not support. My following is very much against Internet forums and at his point I am only a student and a free agent. My summary is up and this is all I have to say, but will check periodically if you want to ask me anything. Praise Jehovah through his Son, Jesus, tommy

Tommy! Your leaving??? That last part was not aimed at you…I just saw a battle on another thread that was very uncharitable

On a side note (not aimed at anyone in particular)…what Jesus is talking about here…that includes talking on the internet

 

[scylla]

Thank you for responding, yet I still missed on the answer and I didn’t see where you answered my question. Can you clarify please? I still didn’t see how it wouldn’t be Jews and Males who are part of the 144,000?

The Vatican isn’t perfect, I am sure that people in the Vatican haven’t made the best decisions, yet I have never seen any matters of faith taught to the contrary.

None of those things you posted have I researched as I only have a minute or two. Yet they do not concern me as they are not official teaching of the Church. That is like saying a Bible Student convicted of murder proves the Bible wrong, no the person just did something wrong.

Thanks again for your response and there is no reason to quit, Jesus never did for us.

God Bless
Scylla