Evidence for Design?

[tonyrey]

#53 – Tony gives a brrilliant explanation on how science regularly studies non-natural phenomena and therefore violates methodological naturalism. Good or bad, that is simply what is done.

Not too fast, Reggie. I’m having doubts about #7:

1. SETI uses scientific methods to discover a metaphysical conclusion, i.e. whether **persons **exist elsewhere in the universe

1. That metaphysical conclusion has no bearing on the metaphysical nature of persons

None whatsoever? Surely it would mean that persons are distinct from any other beings of which we are aware. Pascal observed:

We know the universe exists whereas the universe doesn’t know we exist! Quite an achievement…

Anyway I stand by the first six points (which are not “mine” of course. )

 

[MindOverMatter2]

But I would say miracles can not happen.

Sarah x

Sarah…that was a very bizarre thing to say. Can you please refrain form saying things like this. You already have the short straw of being an atheist; why make things worse then they already are.

 

[tonyrey]

But I would say miracles can not happen.

Is that an act of faith - or do you have a reason?

The Church doesn’t seem to have come down on one side or the other in the debate, does it? Or am I mistaken?

The Church is understandably and necessarily very cautious.

 

[atheistgirl]

Is that an act of faith - or do you have a reason?

My reason is I see no evidence for the supernatural. We continue to find perfectly ordinary naturalistic explanations for things once thought of as supernatural or miraculous. I think we will continue to do so, and this includes eventually finding an explanation for how the Shroud was created. An explanation that will no doubt in time be accepted by both the science community and the Church.

The Church is understandably and necessarily very cautious.

Indeed.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

It’s supper - outcide of nature.

If it’s “supper” it would be a pity to miss it!
If it’s “outcide” of nature it might be a killer.

At all events you’ve given no reason to ignore it, reject it or stake everything on what you know. That amounts to worshipping nature…

 

[MindOverMatter2]

My reason is I see no evidence for the supernatural.
Sarah x

Let me see here.

So basically its … I see no evidence + dogmatic naturalism + pseudo-science = bogus reason for saying that miracles can’t happen.

Thanks Atheist Girl, I have learned much.

 

[atheistgirl]

If it’s “supper” it would be a pity to miss it!
If it’s “outcide” of nature it might be a killer.

At all events you’ve given no reason to ignore it, reject it or stake everything on what you know. That amounts to worshipping nature…

I don’t worship nature, or anything else.

I do live by what I know from living, my experiences and the **verifiable **experiences of others.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

My reason is I see no evidence for the supernatural. We continue to find perfectly ordinary naturalistic explanations for things once thought of as supernatural or miraculous. I think we will continue to do so, and this includes eventually finding an explanation for how the Shroud was created. An explanation that will no doubt in time be accepted by both the science community and the Church.

Some naturalistic explanations are most extraordinary and give the impression that the universe can be reduced to a set of abstract mathematical equations. The “solid” world consists of more emptiness than anything else!

 

[atheistgirl]

The “solid” world consists of more emptiness than anything else!

Indeed it does - but just look at the mind boggling stunning beauty contained in that emptiness.

I can look up at the stars tonight, in total awe and wonder, and with my kids and husband sitting around the fire, and literally feel my heart soar to the heavens with my loved ones.

I don’t need to go beyond nature to find meaning in every breath I take.

It’s a wonderful life.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t worship nature, or anything else.

I do live by what I know from living, my experiences and the **verifiable **experiences of others.

Then you worship what you **think **you know because “worship” means “to regard as supremely valuable and important”.

“verifiable” is not a matter of what you detect with the senses but what you decide is true with your intellect. Uninterpreted information is worthless.

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed it does - but just look at the mind boggling stunning beauty contained in that emptiness.

I can look up at the stars tonight, in total awe and wonder, and with my kids and husband sitting around the fire, and literally feel my heart soar to the heavens with my loved ones.

I don’t need to go beyond nature to find meaning in every breath I take.

It’s a wonderful life.

Sarah x

I agree. Does all this wonder and beauty exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever? Is love an absurd, meaningless accident?

 

[atheistgirl]

I agree. Does all this wonder and beauty exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever? Is love an absurd, meaningless accident?

Sorry. I think I’ve said all I can without straying into banned territory and how I put into perspective the subjects you’ve mentioned.

I live every monent to the full - with good reason

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

This introduces another dualism which appears to diminish God by relegating Him to only having a direct role with certain objects, and is also subjective since it is you who get to decide what is and isn’t useful. Isn’t it just a lot simpler, and more likely to be true, to see God as active in everything? “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”? (Rom 1:20)

You didn’t say anything about them but they are a fact of life. Pascal remarked:
“Cleopatra’s nose, had it been shorter, the whole face of the world would have been changed”. In other words history would have been different if her face - which was due to an accident of birth - had been less beautful. It is impossible to have a physical world without the element of chance, i.e. unintended combinations of events.

 

[tonyrey]

Sorry. I think I’ve said all I can without straying into banned territory and how I put into perspective the subjects you’ve mentioned.

You don’t have to consider how we reached our present state but what we are. Persons or collections of particles?

I live every moment to the full - with good reason

Could you choose to live any other way? What gives you this power that no animal possesses? Or do you imagine you choose whereas in reality you just live in the only way you can - like a cog in the machine of nature?

 

[buffalo]

it is significant how some people regard it as a fake on principle even though they have never bothered to study all the evidence…

Their principle is “Miracles never happen and **cannot **happen under any circumstances”.

Why not? Because they are unscientific! (As if science is the **sole **criterion of reality…)

Doesn’t this defeat the reasoning process and is irrational?

 

[reggieM]

Not too fast, Reggie. I’m having doubts about #7:

None whatsoever? Surely it would mean that persons are distinct from any other beings of which we are aware. Pascal observed:

We know the universe exists whereas the universe doesn’t know we exist! Quite an achievement…

Anyway I stand by the first six points (which are not “mine” of course. )

I agree that #7 might not work because if persons existed elsewhere, we might have to reconsider what the nature of a person is.

 

[reggieM]

I can look up at the stars tonight, in total awe and wonder …

What do you mean by “awe”?

And why do you have a feeling of wonder?

 

[atheistgirl]

Or do you imagine you choose whereas in reality you just live in the only way you can

I live the only way I can that makes me blissfully happy.

I built the life I knew I wanted to live but I was driven to do it. We went through some though times that we could have easily avoided for the sake of a different lifestyle.

I couldnt have it any other way. I couldnt and wouldnt live in a town or a city. There are tons of things that could be foised upon me, which would require such momumental changes of me I wouldnt be the person I am.

Could I actually live another way - of course. Could I CHOSE to live another way - no.

Sarah x

 

[reggieM]

I wouldn’t say it was fake. Clearly there is a shroud with an image on it. But whether the back story is genuine or not… well …

There is an image – no attempt to explain its origin has been successful yet.

Why do you think it’s impossible that the image has a supernatural origin? Would you close your mind to a real possibility, even though you truly don’t know what caused it?

But I would say miracles can not happen.

Would you say that it is impossible that God exists? If so, how do you know that you’ve investigated all the evidence.

As with the miraculous images – how can you dismiss them before even studying them closely? Why would you want to dismiss the possibility that God does exist? What benefit would it provide for you to close your mind and heart to that possibility?

 

[atheistgirl]

There is an image – no attempt to explain its origin has been successful yet.

That does seem to be the case.

Would you close your mind to a real possibility, even though you truly don’t know what caused it?

I dont think my mind is closed. I just dont readily accept claims of the supernatural. I dont think all natural causes or processes could have been explored yet. Scientists have only ever been allowed to work with the tiniest pieces of material.

Would you say that it is impossible that God exists?

No. I could simply never make such a statement with any credibilty.

Why would you want to dismiss the possibility that God does exist?

I have never once said God does not exist, as an emphatic statement. I have said I do not see any evidence of the supernatural.

What benefit would it provide for you to close your mind and heart to that possibility?

I dont think I have a closed mind - I have a very open but skeptical one.

Sarah x