Evidence for Design?

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I’m lacking a lot of information and I think a textbook would help me. I need something I can mark up and highlight. It’s hard to do that using a computer! My only worry is the expense.

Thanks for the info! 🙂
This program was produced by Jay Richards, an ID advocate who is also a Catholic. You can print out the PDF files or order materials here:

faithandevolution.org/resources/curricula.php

Curricula

Want to teach about evolution or intelligent design in a small group, an adult Sunday School class, a church school science class, or a mid-week adult education program? On this page, you will find a variety of ideas and curriculum resources to help you better inform your congregation about the issues surrounding evolution and intelligent design.

Use this complete curriculum (textbook, DVD, outlines and lesson plans, test bank, and Powerpoint presentations) to teach the evidence for and against modern evolutionary theory. Especially suitable for: High school and college biology classes; home school classes; private study; adult enrichment seminars.

The Case for Intelligent Design

Use this free article by Stephen Meyer and accompanying discussion questions to explore the history, logic, and evidence for intelligent design as a scientific theory. Especially suitable for: Small group discussions, or as one session of an adult Sunday School class on science and faith or intelligent design.

The Roots of Intelligent Design

Use this free collection of readings, audio clips, and discussion questions to explore the intellectual roots of intelligent design in Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian, and modern thought. Especially suitable for: small group discussions, or an adult education mini-course of 2 or 3 sessions.
 
  1. Philosophical arguments for the existence of God are all based on facts about the physical universe which presuppose Design rather than a purposeless system - in which, for example, morality wouldn’t otherwise make sense.
  2. It seems implausible that fine tuning is applied only to the initial conditions and not to any of the subsequent stages of development. There would be no guarantee of success unless there were some degree of divine control and direction.
  3. The immense complexity of the universe greatly increases the probability of failure without divine intervention - a fact borne out by the extinction of many species and on several occasions almost all life on earth.
  4. The very existence of rational beings on this planet is a miracle - and not only from a spiritual point of view - because the immense complexity of the human brain is an essential basis for the control of physical objects and the communication of thoughts and emotions.
  5. The amount of suffering in the world could be far greater than it is when one considers the extent to which the human race is responsible for pollution, destruction of the habitat and the extinction of so many species.
  6. The miracles recognised by the Church and specialists in medicine are sufficient for anyone who believes in the teaching of Jesus that God is a living Father who answers our prayers .
  7. If the apostles didn’t work miracles the New Testament is not a reliable historical record.
  8. Answers to prayer through the normal working of the world are not sufficient to cure every disease and infirmity.
  9. Finite laws are not infallible guarantees of success for billions of living organisms over a period of billions of years in billions of different circumstances. It is not a question of divine incompetence but physical necessity. It is impossible for the laws of nature to cater for every single contingency - as we soon discover if we are the victims of an accident or disaster for which no one is responsible.
  10. Let’s hope your prayers for a miracle are answered when the time comes - as it will do sooner or later for all of us.
That was a great response – thank you.
Actually, it was a very informative dialogue on both sides.
 
That implies God is not smart enough to plan and create a process that does exactly what He wants. No guarantee of success? You think God is as dumb as human designers who have to correct here and there? You really don’t seem to have much confidence in Divine Providence when it comes to the issue of it being Almighty, do you?
I think we’ve been over this several times by now. Fine-tuning is evidence of intervention. It is not the product of natural laws. There is no “process” that creates fine-tuning. Tony is questioning if it is consistent to cite fine-tuning in one aspect of the universe but claim, at the same time, that there is no evidence of it elsewhere.

In the reductionist view, the same elements that were shaped for the cosmos are the elements present on earth. If the process (natural laws, gravity, properties of matter, energy etc) guaranteed success – there would be no need for and no evidence of fine-tuning anywhere.

Admittedly, I cannot explain this as well as others, so I am just going to leave it at that.
 
That is what I think happens far more often – God moves souls. I believe that while God rarely intervenes in the natural order, He often intervenes in the supernatural order, which includes our soul.
The difficult part of this is the interface between soul and body. If the soul (rationality, free will, spiritual sense, conscience & moral awareness) affects the physical body and the development of the organism, then there are implications to consider with regards to God’s intervention and the continual presence of the supernatural in the biological order.
 
I think we’ve been over this several times by now. Fine-tuning is evidence of intervention. It is not the product of natural laws. There is no “process” that creates fine-tuning.
Of course. The Big Bang with its laws is God’s direct creation (or if the Big Bang came out of a wider universe, then that universe).
Tony is questioning if it is consistent to cite fine-tuning in one aspect of the universe but claim, at the same time, that there is no evidence of it elsewhere.
If the processes of physical evolution of the universe, chemical evolution towards the origin of life, and biological evolution are perfect, then why should there be evidence for intervention? And why should these processes not perfect? Why should God not be so intelligent as to foresee everything in the evolutionary processes and get them right the first time?

So, yes, it is entirely consistent to say that God fine-tuned the universe and then simply let it develop.

Again, I believe that God has intervened in history many times and still does so, simply because He wants to, but I do not see why He should be expected to intervene in a perfect process that He created and where He does not have to intervene.
In the reductionist view, the same elements that were shaped for the cosmos are the elements present on earth. If the process (natural laws, gravity, properties of matter, energy etc) guaranteed success – there would be no need for and no evidence of fine-tuning anywhere.
No, without fine-tuning there would be no stars, no galaxies, no planets, no nothing.
 
The difficult part of this is the interface between soul and body. If the soul (rationality, free will, spiritual sense, conscience & moral awareness) affects the physical body and the development of the organism, then there are implications to consider with regards to God’s intervention and the continual presence of the supernatural in the biological order.
Certainly.
 
What about the times that the Host has actually become a piece of flesh, appearing as a piece of flesh instead of unleavened bread? Isn’t this a miracle that occurs in both the spiritual and physical realms?
Certainly it is. But these miracles are obviously much rarer.
 
If the laws of nature are created by God they are certainly able to “cater” to every single contingency. God has the power to create worlds with natural laws that are perfectly appropriate. He doesn’t *have *to intervene in His worlds but that doesn’t mean that He doesn’t. Also, God works in eternal time and we need to always keep this in mind. Complexity presents no problem to an omnipotent Being nor does chronological time.

God is not bound by what our human brains are capable of conceiving.

You seem to be placing restrictions on God’s omnipotence. Don’t you accept this part of His being?
If the laws of nature can cater for every contingency natural disasters would never occur. No one would ever be maimed or killed in an earthquake, tornado, tsumani, avalanche or tornado.

These are not restrictions on God’s omnipotence but **the inevitable consequences of the laws of nature **which cannot adapt themselves to every situation. It was not a theist but a sceptic - David Hume - who pointed this out in his Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.That is why God intervenes whenever He can without disrupting the order and predictability of events - or making it impossible to deny that He exists.

Miracles are not luxuries but absolute necessities in a physical universe created by a loving Father who minimises suffering.
 
If the processes of physical evolution of the universe, chemical evolution towards the origin of life, and biological evolution are perfect, then why should there be evidence for intervention? And why should these processes not perfect?
Why should God not be so intelligent as to foresee everything in the evolutionary processes and get them right the first time?
God knows all the **limitations **of the laws of nature and acts accordingly. He knows that an element of disorder is inevitable within the framework of order.
Again, I believe that God has intervened in history many times and still does so, simply because He wants to, but I do not see why He should be expected to intervene in a perfect process that He created and where He does not have to intervene.
It is impossible for no one **never **to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no feasible law of nature that could prevent every accident or disaster. Imperfection is the result of the interplay of natural laws which results in dysteleological coincidences.
 
Of course. The Big Bang with its laws is God’s direct creation (or if the Big Bang came out of a wider universe, then that universe).
That’s a very good starting point. We have the big bang with matter, energy and the laws of physics, etc. So, the more consistent proposal would be that God created those elements and the laws and then let everything run.
In fact, that is what you’re saying, I think. But that conflicts with fine-tuning.
Again, fine-tuning is not the product of the laws and matter just running on their own. It’s an intervention into the physical laws and matter.
That’s the remarkable thing about the fine-tuning. If we just look at the big bang and all the matter and laws present there – we would not have fine-tuning.
There is something beyond the laws – an intervention. Physics itself cannot explain the finely-tuned outputs.
If the processes of physical evolution of the universe, chemical evolution towards the origin of life, and biological evolution are perfect, then why should there be evidence for intervention?
This is a much bigger and more complex question. When we talk about the laws being “perfect” – then that is a problem from the Christian view. Since the laws are active in Time and are oriented to Matter – then they cannot be perfect. They exist in a Temporal sphere. This universe and its laws are passing away. The laws have some degree of perfection, but because they are created things, they share the imperfection of this created world.

God did not intend to create anything absolutely perfect within a universe which was designed to exist only temporarily. That is a great argument for why humans get old and begin to feel some hurts … if that didn’t happen, we wouldn’t want to leave this earth for a better existence in heaven for eternity. So, God made the pleasures imperfect. They’re good enough to give us a taste of heaven, but flawed enough that we won’t mistake them for the perfect reward hereafter.

If the laws were absolutely perfect, then even God couldn’t break them – they would be impervious to change or being superseded by God’s action. But the laws are just somewhat consistent – stable-enough for us to make predictions and do science to a reasonable degree.
And why should these processes not perfect?
As above, they’re part of our temporal universe – they’re created. In Thomistic terms, they’re contingent on a universe that is a composite of parts (the perfect is simple and one) and they have unrealized potential, and some laws can actually conflict and be shaped or even, occasionally, neutralized by other laws.

If we’re going to pose evolutionary processes as “laws” then they are very imperfect since they do not follow regularly and consistently from cause to effect. They’re very reliant on chance occurrences and thus lacking order and predictability – and are thus imperfect. The evolutionary process is built on “mistakes” or “copy errors” – and many mutations are very harmful. It’s only the beneficial mutations that “work” for evolution, so it’s a very wasteful process also. Organisms should end up being deformed because of mutations and then some lucky ones might survive, or not. It’s very far from a perfect process and very far from being mathematically elegant. It’s a patchwork of ideas – and that makes it far from a perfect law as we would expect.
Why should God not be so intelligent as to foresee everything in the evolutionary processes and get them right the first time?
This is a point that we keep circling around and I have not been able to come up with the right or best explanation that would clarify things.
The part where we’re disagreeing is bolded in your text.

If we took a very strict mechanistic view (which I know you’re not doing), we would say:

God created the laws.
The laws must be perfect, because God is perfect.
Whatever the laws produce and in whatever way they function must also be perfect.
God created all the laws once and they have run with perfection ever since.
The laws rule all aspects of the physical life of the universe and created human life itself.
Therefore, what we see in the universe and in life on earth and everywhere - is perfection.

If the above concepts were evidently true, then there could be no real debate.
The laws would work with machine-like consistency and everything they produced would be perfect.

But we don’t see that in the universe. The world and life itself is not a machine. It is like a machine in many ways, but one reason life and the universe has beauty and mystery is that it is also like a poem or a work of music or a drama. It’s not just a perfect output of perfect laws.

Now we could say that God designed the laws to create imperfect outputs.
But that brings us back to the question of why God would create imperfect laws.
Again, I believe that God has intervened in history many times and still does so, simply because He wants to, but I do not see why He should be expected to intervene in a perfect process that He created and where He does not have to intervene.
That seems reasonable in many ways, but the classic Catholic view on this is that the universe is suffering from the presence of evil. There was an original harmony, but that has been damaged by the option to sin against the Creator.
No, without fine-tuning there would be no stars, no galaxies, no planets, no nothing.
Yes – so if left just to the natural laws and matter, there would be no planets and no earth. An intervention in the physical realm was necessary, because the laws could not produce the fine-tuning needed.
 
T
This is a much bigger and more complex question. When we talk about the laws being “perfect” – then that is a problem from the Christian view. Since the laws are active in Time and are oriented to Matter – then they cannot be perfect. They exist in a Temporal sphere. This universe and its laws are passing away. The laws have some degree of perfection, but because they are created things, they share the imperfection of this created world.
I mean perfect in the sense that they achieve all that God wanted in His physical creation. There is no need for God to intervene and suspend the laws at certain points in order to bring about what He wants to achieve.

That he sometimes suspends them for miracles is another matter. But again, I believe in a God who works miracles when He wants to, not when He has to. The latter would be the case if He was not able to create a perfect process.
 
These are not restrictions on God’s omnipotence but **the inevitable consequences of the laws of nature **which cannot adapt themselves to every situation. It was not a theist but a sceptic - David Hume - who pointed this out in his Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.That is why God intervenes whenever He can without disrupting the order and predictability of events - or making it impossible to deny that He exists.
Oh well, He obviously didn’t intervene in the Japanese tsunami. And He didn’t intervene in the Haiti earthquake, which was predicted to happen (even though not exactly when, of course), according to what we know about the laws of nature, and even was predicted to happen with a magnitude of around 7 on the Richter scale – which it did (7.2).

The more rational stance thus is that God created a universe with certain laws of nature in full foreknowledge of what would happen, and does not choose to always intervene – for whatever reasons He has. One thing is certain: God never promised us a world without suffering.

In fact, suffering is absolutely central to Christ’s message.
 
I think we’ve been over this several times by now. Fine-tuning is evidence of intervention. It is not the product of natural laws. There is no “process” that creates fine-tuning. Tony is questioning if it is consistent to cite fine-tuning in one aspect of the universe but claim, at the same time, that there is no evidence of it elsewhere.

In the reductionist view, the same elements that were shaped for the cosmos are the elements present on earth. If the process (natural laws, gravity, properties of matter, energy etc) guaranteed success – there would be no need for and no evidence of fine-tuning anywhere.

Admittedly, I cannot explain this as well as others, so I am just going to leave it at that.
What about the fine-tuning of life itself?

Let us start a list.
  1. the design and fine-tuning of the ATP synthase motor.
 
Of course. The Big Bang with its laws is God’s direct creation (or if the Big Bang came out of a wider universe, then that universe).

If the processes of physical evolution of the universe, chemical evolution towards the origin of life, and biological evolution are perfect, then why should there be evidence for intervention? And why should these processes not perfect? Why should God not be so intelligent as to foresee everything in the evolutionary processes and get them right the first time?

So, yes, it is entirely consistent to say that God fine-tuned the universe and then simply let it develop.

Again, I believe that God has intervened in history many times and still does so, simply because He wants to, but I do not see why He should be expected to intervene in a perfect process that He created and where He does not have to intervene.

No, without fine-tuning there would be no stars, no galaxies, no planets, no nothing.
Suppose some of this hinges on man’s behavior and God intervenes after man screws it up.
 
*These are not restrictions on God’s omnipotence but **the inevitable consequences of the laws of nature ***
It is impossible to know to what extent God did intervene in the Japanese tsunami or the Haiti earthquake. Many people were injured and killed but many were also unharmed. It is impossible to know whether **all **the movements of falling objects were in precise accordance with the law of gravity. If we believe God is both loving and omnipotent it is certain that He intervenes whenever He can without disrupting the general order and predictability of events - or making it impossible to deny that He exists. If He prevented every disaster it would certainly defeat the purpose of creating a world in which we are free to choose what to believe and how to live but there is nothing to prevent him from minimising harmful consequences…
The more rational stance thus is that God created a universe with certain laws of nature in full foreknowledge of what would happen, and does not choose to always intervene – for whatever reasons He has. One thing is certain: God never promised us a world without suffering. In fact, suffering is absolutely central to Christ’s message.
Suffering is absolutely central to Christ’s message but He did not promise us a world with unnecessary suffering. We agree that He intervenes to some extent but He does not intervene on every occasion for the reasons I have given. We know our children have to face many dangers in their lives but we also know we cannot protect them from the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune” which occur within the framework of Design.
 
f we believe God is both loving and omnipotent it is certain that He intervenes whenever He can without disrupting the general order and predictability of events - or making it impossible to deny that He exists.
This does not necessarily follow. Who says that a loving God would do that? You? Perhaps you have a rather anthropomorphic image of God.
 
This is a much bigger and more complex question. When we talk about the laws being “perfect” – then that is a problem from the Christian view. Since the laws are active in Time and are oriented to Matter – then they cannot be perfect. They exist in a Temporal sphere. This universe and its laws are passing away. The laws have some degree of perfection, but because they are created things, they share the imperfection of this created world.

If the laws were absolutely perfect, then even God couldn’t break them – they would be impervious to change or being superseded by God’s action. But the laws are just somewhat consistent – stable-enough for us to make predictions and do science to a reasonable degree.

As above, they’re part of our temporal universe – they’re created. In Thomistic terms, they’re contingent on a universe that is a composite of parts (the perfect is simple and one) and they have unrealized potential, and some laws can actually conflict and be shaped or even, occasionally, neutralized by other laws.

If we’re going to pose evolutionary processes as “laws” then they are very imperfect since they do not follow regularly and consistently from cause to effect. They’re very reliant on chance occurrences and thus lacking order and predictability – and are thus imperfect. The evolutionary process is built on “mistakes” or “copy errors” – and many mutations are very harmful. It’s only the beneficial mutations that “work” for evolution, so it’s a very wasteful process also. Organisms should end up being deformed because of mutations and then some lucky ones might survive, or not. It’s very far from a perfect process and very far from being mathematically elegant. It’s a patchwork of ideas – and that makes it far from a perfect law as we would expect.
Indeed. Only God is perfect in every respect. All the laws of nature are perfect in themselves but when they are combined they often harm and destroy rather than sustain and protect. The laws of motion do not guarantee an absence of collisions which injure and kill - nor does any other physical law for that matter. A physical universe necessarily has negative features like conflict, failure, interference and meaningless events.
 
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