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John10
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Agreed, Law of Biogenesis. Life only comes from life
Evolution: Is There Any Good Reason To Reject The Abiogenesis Hypothesis?
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IWantGod
Guest
As far as we know.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
Got to love those videos. So in death it all just stops?
I am of the opinion that all things have life. It is just a matter of degree and development.
Yes, even the cute little quarks and leptons.
I am of the opinion that all things have life. It is just a matter of degree and development.
Yes, even the cute little quarks and leptons.
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Aloysium
Guest
I agree, except I would use the term “existence” vs “life”, which i would attribute to very complex forms of being and the relationships they describe. The atoms and molecules continue as they in themselves, are but freed from the organizing whole that was the cell.
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buffalo
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Why not? The design in biology is obvious.
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Wozza
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So there must be good reasons for truly evil actions. Otherwise you have no argument.Wozza:
Good and evil would have no objective meaning otherwise. So if we are going to entertain their existence we have no choice but to assume that God has good reasons for allowing evil to exist. We can’t have it both ways. We cannot say that some actions are truly evil and at the same time say that God is wrong because wrong can only exist if there is really such a thing right, and selfishness can only be an act if there is really such a thing as an act of love.
The rest is simply a matter of faith, which is not a very popular word in our day and age.
Consequently, if something truly bad happens, it is quite acceptable to say: ‘Well, at least it’s for a good reason’.
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IWantGod
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Otherwise there is no such thing as right and wrong.
I have faith that God has good reasons for allowing evil to exist. It seems to me at least that some actions are truly wrong.
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Aloysium
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There’s a difference between a complex structure and those that are unusual or complicated. The crystal is unusual; a garbage dump is complicated. A living form is complex in the sense that its reality, has a different nature than it’s constituent parts; it is a holistic system made up of interrelated, in themselves complex components, whose attributes are of a different order than the organism itself.
People should not tell others what they believe. Those assertions take the place of understanding; as feedback, they regrettably reveal only how difficult it is to communicate.
Communication is what we do, by the way. Atoms do not do that. The psychological order imposed on matter, to enable that spiritual capacity had to be created, as were atoms, and later cellular organisms, that those traits, the information in action, which they are, would be united in the one being that is the person-in-the-world.
People should not tell others what they believe. Those assertions take the place of understanding; as feedback, they regrettably reveal only how difficult it is to communicate.
Communication is what we do, by the way. Atoms do not do that. The psychological order imposed on matter, to enable that spiritual capacity had to be created, as were atoms, and later cellular organisms, that those traits, the information in action, which they are, would be united in the one being that is the person-in-the-world.
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TomH1
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It’s interesting that the Royal Society’s own description of that meeting was, ‘although the issues involved remain hotly contested’. Not quite as cut and dried as your post appears to imply.
I’m not here to enter into a debate about evolution. I came in only to clarify that abiogenesis and evolution, whilst obviously linked, are not the same thing.
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buffalo
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Of course it was. This is a huge paradigm shift and there are many that cannot deal with it. Stay tuned.
Jablonka said - (paraphrasing) we can consider design, but no God.
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Gorgias
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Yes, that would be nonsense… if it were what I am saying. (It ain’t.
)What I’m saying is that, since we don’t know how the process occurred, we can’t extrapolate (validly, at least) and reach conclusions about other occurrences of the process elsewhere. Moreover, we can’t presume to estimate the frequency of these ‘processes’!
Where do you read “and therefore, the process can be described as supernatural” in that?!?
Agreed. And, it would have been highly unscientific to attempt to describe planet formation in other star systems, based on our lack of knowledge of planet formation in general. Precisely.
Hardly.
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Wozza
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But the first sentence above says explicitly that God has good reasons for evil actions. What can you mean by ‘truly wrong’?
All evil acts are truly wrong. But it is your position that they must be for the greater good. It is your only position. Otherwise God allows evil. Period.
So again, when we see an evil act there is nothing wrong with saying, based on your argument, that ‘at least some good will come of it’.
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Wozza
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Then we still need to know how you determine natural from supernatural.Wozza:
Hardly.
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buffalo
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Yes, God permits evil. Logically if God is perfectly good, and something else exists that is not God, by definition has some degree of what we call evil (not good).
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Wozza
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IWG insists that He allows it because there must be a greater good that comes from it. Otherwise He wouldn’t allow it.Wozza:
Yes, God permits evil.
Do you agree with that?
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buffalo
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Paragraph 7. The Fall
[385] God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”.258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260
I. WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE ABOUNDED ALL THE MORE
The reality of sin
[386] Sin is present in human history; any attempt to ignore it or to give this dark reality other names would be futile. To try to understand what sin is, one must first recognize the profound relation of man to God , for only in this relationship is the evil of sin unmasked in its true identity as humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to him, even as it continues to weigh heavy on human life and history.
[387] Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind’s origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognize sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God’s plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, “who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive.” From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”, brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.
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edwest211
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Thank you. Man’s true identity is revealed only in the context of our relationship to God, to Jesus Christ.
Matthew 19:25
New International Version
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
New Living Translation
The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked.
English Standard Version
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26
New International Version
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
New Living Translation
Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.”
English Standard Version
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Matthew 19:25
New International Version
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
New Living Translation
The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked.
English Standard Version
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26
New International Version
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
New Living Translation
Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.”
English Standard Version
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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Wozza
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I can’t remember asking for a cut and paste of the catechism. And I know that it might be difficult for you to give a straightforward answer. But I’ll ask again anyway.
IWG believes that God permits evil because there will be some unknown good which will come of it. We don’t know what that is, but it must be there.
I’d like your personal opinion on that. Do you agree with it or not?
IWG believes that God permits evil because there will be some unknown good which will come of it. We don’t know what that is, but it must be there.
I’d like your personal opinion on that. Do you agree with it or not?
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buffalo
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I provided the Catholic teaching on this.
No, I don’t believe He permits it so He can derive a good from it. An evil act does not justify a good outcome. He permits evil because He loves us so much He gives us free will.
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Wozza
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Maybe IWG can explain his position in light of that.Wozza:
I provided the Catholic teaching on this.
No, I don’t believe He permits it so He can derive a good from it.
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