Evolution refuting catholicism?

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*This article is reprinted from an interview with Citizen Magazine, *January 1992.

Phillip Johnson has been a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley for more than 20 years. As an academic lawyer, one of Johnson’s specialties is “analyzing the logic of arguments and identifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments.” A few years ago he began to suspect that Darwinism, far from being an objective fact, was little more than a philosophical position dressed up as science–and poor science at that. Wanting to see whether his initial impression was correct, Johnson decided to take a closer look at the arguments, evidence and assumptions underlying contemporary Darwinism. The result of his investigation is Darwin on Trial, a controversial new book that challenges not only Darwinism but the philosophical mindset that sustains it.

**When did you first become aware that Darwinism was in trouble as a scientific theory?
I had been vaguely aware that there were problems, but I’d never had any intention of taking up the subject seriously or in detail until the 1987-88 academic year, when I was a visiting professor in London. Every day on the way to my office I happened to go by a large bookstore devoted to science. I picked up one book after another and became increasingly fascinated with the obvious difficulties in the Darwinist case–difficulties that were being evaded by tricky rhetoric and emphatic repetition. I then began delving into the professional literature, especially in scientific journals such as Nature and Science. At every step, what I found was a failure of the evidence to be in accord with the theory.

What was it that initially made you suspect that Darwinism was more philosophy than hard science?

It was the way my scientific colleagues responded when I asked the hard questions. Instead of taking the intellectual questions seriously and responding to them, they would answer with all sorts of evasions and vague language, making it impossible to discuss the real objections to Darwinism. This is the way people talk when they’re trying very hard not to understand something.

Another tip-off was the sharp contrast I noticed between the extremely dogmatic tone that Darwinists use when addressing the general public and the occasional frank acknowledgments, in scientific circles, of serious problems with the theory. For example, I would read Stephen Jay Gould telling the scientific world that Darwinism was effectively dead as a theory. And then in the popular literature, I would read Gould and other scientific writers saying that Darwinism was fundamentally healthy, and that scientists had the remaining problems well under control. There was a contradiction here, and it looked as though there was an effort to keep the outside world from becoming aware of the serious intellectual difficulties.

read more:
arn.org/docs/johnson/citmag92.htm
 
duduel,

It really doesn’t matter what you think or your ID folks think because the very finest, world renowned scientists, some of which are on the Scientific Advisory Committee for the Vatican, know Intelligent Design Theory is a hoax and so does every “real” CATHOLIC.

Peddle your wares elsewhere will you please. This discussion is about EVOLUTION not about the nasty virus Intelligent Design that some adults are trying to pawn off on innocent minded children just to make a buck. Tiss a sad sad day when people try to brainwash God’s kids. Not good. Not good. God doesn’t like that at all. Not at all. :nope:

Mary
 
dcduel,

Since you don’t seem to be able to respond to the technical criticisms of your posts, let’s just get to the bottom line.

I have stated in several posts what my faith is. I have also made it clear that I accept evolution as factual based on the evidence. Now, tell me.

  1. *] Am I a godless athiest with the intent of driving God out of all parts of our lives?
    *]Am I going to hell because I accept the insurmountable evidence of evolution?
    *]Did God leave this evidence and give me the intellect to understand it and recognize it as a way to trick me?

    These are all single word (yes or no) answers. You don’t even have to do any quote mining to do it. I want YOUR opinion for a change.

    Peace

    Tim
 
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PhilVaz:
Hello, Intelligent Design ™ doesn’t say that. Read up on it. Both Behe and Dembski would argue it could be an intelligence from another world that spawned life on this planet. So not necessarily God. They simply say “intelligence can be detected.”
Correct. ID simply looks for patterns of design and intelligence. It is trying to not cross over into theology. That way under our current system it can be taught in schools.

The conclusions that would be induced from this scare the pants off the establishment.

The fear of the darwinists is that ultimately it will boil down to this:

From the CC:

34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10
 
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buffalo:
Correct. ID simply looks for patterns of design and intelligence. It is trying to not cross over into theology. That way under our current system it can be taught in schools.
Wrong – there is a Fundamentalist agenda behind Behe and Company. ID is, as someone else posted, a virus. We don’t need to infect the Catholic Church with that virus.

buffalo said:
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10

Charles Darwin himself would not disagree with that. There is NO conflict between science and the Catholic Church.
 
vern humphrey:
Wrong – there is a Fundamentalist agenda behind Behe and Company. ID is, as someone else posted, a virus. We don’t need to infect the Catholic Church with that virus.

Charles Darwin himself would not disagree with that. There is NO conflict between science and the Catholic Church.
As long as the science is right and we have the right understanding of that science.
 
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buffalo:
As long as the science is right and we have the right understanding of that science.
We do that by NOT following Fundamentalists, Creationsists, and IDists.
 
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buffalo:
Please state this Fundie agenda and cite sources please.
How many times will you pretend this question hasn’t been answered?

I’ve quoted their own words to you, from their own website.

I’ve cited their “scientific standards” – which turn out to be papers and documents which DON’T establish standards or protocols, but which are from various fundamentalist-influenced school boards and similar organizations.

Others have cited appearances at Protestant colleges, with loaded agendas.

Others have traced their roots to Free Masonry.

Now, how about YOU citing a Catholic approval for ID ?
 
Here’s a taste of what I think is behind Intelligent Design Theory ~

BLUEPRINT FOR SURVIVAL

How to Avoid Extinction


**by **Professor Robert Pope

‘BLUEPRINT FOR SURVIVAL – How to Avoid Extinction’ a book titled

‘FREEMASONARY ITS HIDDEN MEANING’ (C. H.Steinmetz. Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company.

New York. 1948) came to light.

The following extract from page 38 is virtually an abstraction of

‘Blueprint for Survival’ It reads: **“Our quest is for therediscovery of something lost. It is the knowledge of the twofold principle in nature and specifically, knowledge of the *modus operandi *of the Constructive Principle. The loss of the knowledge of the Constructive Principle in nature brought into man’s existence its opposite, the Destructive Principle.”

**‘Blueprint for Survival’ explains the lethal error made by installing the **Destructive Principle **as the **prime directive **of the artificial intelligence system and the means to correct this situation.
[snip]

**INTRODUCTION

**The philosophy and art of Robert Pope - Director of the Science-Art Research Centre of Australia, is pointing in a direction which is helping to usher in a new paradigm for present day scientific thinking. A clearer, brighter and vivifying light is effectively bathing the time-worn and tarnished Trojan Horse of 20th Century mechanism. Its name is ‘Creative Physics’.

Two decades of involvement and projection of Pope’s work towards the media has lamentably had little impact on the established academic credo in Australia.

But song is being sung in more imaginative and innovative mind-climates throughout the world. There is a physics for human survival on this planet - one that transcends the now outmoded Newtonian/Cartesian, deterministic world view - one that violates the long held second law of thermodynamics.

The life-sciences are beginning to realize its significance. The world-wide alternative health movement is embracing its principles and there exists solid evidence enough to validate it in the realm of advanced biophysics.

As for the status of Robert Pope’s art which stands as a vivid metaphor for Creative Physics principles, the words of celebrated author Lawrence Durrell are highly significant…

“the classical in art is that which marches by intent with the cosmology of the age” . The ‘Alexandria Quartet’

The following essay presents Pope’s own outline of Creative Physics which is to be presented at forthcoming symposiums both in Australia and internationally . . .

[read the complete paper here: http://zpenergy.com/downloads/blueprint.pdf”]http://zpenergy.com/downloads/blueprint.pdf

BLUEPRINT FOR SURVIVAL… to Avoid Extinction’ a book titled 'FREEMASONARY ITS HIDDEN … physical worlds and to evolve intelligence, became the … civic virtue but by the design of government …http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=40

 
I’m thinking it is all “New Age” stuff…‘Gaia Hypothesis’ . . . Professor Robert Pope into the Intelligent Design Theory ? (The Great Architect of the Universe) . . . I think its about Freemasonary trying to create a one world government and religion. The religion they want is “Intelligent Design Theory” to take root within the minds of children so eventually there would be only one religion, a religion without God, so there would be no need for wars. Big Problem HERE. The right to believe in whatever religion we would want to is stollen away due to the fundamentalist view of Freemasonary. NOT GOOD. NOT Good. God doesn’t like us or His future kids being force fed bologna for the rest of our life.
 
vern humphrey:
How many times will you pretend this question hasn’t been answered?

I’ve quoted their own words to you, from their own website.

I’ve cited their “scientific standards” – which turn out to be papers and documents which DON’T establish standards or protocols, but which are from various fundamentalist-influenced school boards and similar organizations.

Others have cited appearances at Protestant colleges, with loaded agendas.

Others have traced their roots to Free Masonry.

Now, how about YOU citing a Catholic approval for ID ?
Specify this long term agenda. The agenda only please.
 
Again, as Philip Johnson and other objective persons have observed, Darwinian evolutionists never address the objections to their theory. They never address the lack of fossil records that show connection between species, much less connection between phyla. They refuse to discuss the formation of the first cell from stray chemicals. They can’t address the lack of continuum. That is, since mutations are supposed to be constant, and since the enviroment is supposedly constantly selecting for the most adaptable mutations for the enviroment, then there must be a continuum of one species into the next. For example, whitetale deer should be different in different enviroments. In the west where it is dry and open, they should look, be and act different, more like pronghong antelope. In the east where it is wet and forested, the enviroment should select for a totally different animal. The same with those in the cold, cold north, and with those in the south. Thus, according to the theory of Darwinian evolution, there should not be a specific species, but only a graduation from the previous deer species to one that is evolving in the future. But all we have is one species, with those in Florida a little smaller than those up north. Evolutionists refuse to discuss this lack of continuum. They refuse to address Dr. Behe’s questions. They refuse to address the fact that even with direct intervention scientists cannot evolve animals from one species to the next. The animal always goes sterile, or reverts back to type. We could go on and on.

As Philip Johnson said, the evolutionists simply avoid answering these things, and use repetition, “its a fact”, they will repeat, and avoid discussing the problems.
“All the scientists believe it” (not true) they repeat and avoid discussing the problems.
“What else can explain it?”, they repeat and avoid discussing the problems.
“We cannot accept intelligent design” and avoid discussing the problems.
They evade, evade, evade, over and over and over. One can go over all these posts, and one can see all they do is evade the problems.

I know of NO OTHER FIELD OF SCIENCE that avoids discussing the problems like evolutionists.

Can anyone name any other field of science that refuses to address the problems like evolution. Name one.

The reason is because evolution is NOT science. It is the philosophy of materialism, which simply uses the theory of evolution as its main prop. Without evolution, the whole philosophy of materialism would fall, and then they could have to theory to fall back on to reject God.
 
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ISABUS:
I’m thinking it is all “New Age” stuff…‘Gaia Hypothesis’ . . . Professor Robert Pope into the Intelligent Design Theory ? (The Great Architect of the Universe) . . . I think its about Freemasonary trying to create a one world government and religion. The religion they want is “Intelligent Design Theory” to take root within the minds of children so eventually there would be only one religion, a religion without God, so there would be no need for wars. Big Problem HERE. The right to believe in whatever religion we would want to is stollen away due to the fundamentalist view of Freemasonary. NOT GOOD. NOT Good. God doesn’t like us or His future kids being force fed bologna for the rest of our life.
Ahhh! I see. Now I see what your worry is. Do I think it is possible? No. Here’s why - even if ID is what you say and it becomes the world religion, the same questions will be asked. If our existence isowed to an intelligent being, who do we say it is? The Catholic, Christian and Jewish answer would be God. Our God. It is unlilkely that this tradition and history would be suppressed.

One question though. Didn’t Jesus command us to evangelize the whole world? That would mean Catholicism as the world religion. What would be wrong with that?
 
buffalo,

I leave it up to the real intelligent MEN on this message board to deal with you and your question since you appear to favor the fundamentalist view of Freemasony.

Gentlemen with sound mind and reason would you please be kind enough to enlighten this creature since I’ve got a ladies CHRISTmas lunchen to attend to and am running late ~ Thank you.

Mary
 
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ISABUS:
buffalo,

I leave it up to the real intelligent MEN on this message board to deal with you and your question since you appear to favor the fundamentalist view of Freemasony.

Gentlemen with sound mind and reason would you please be kind enough to enlighten this creature since I’ve got a ladies CHRISTmas lunchen to attend to and am running late ~ Thank you.

Mary
Buffalo is bound and determined to convert Catholics to Fundamentalism.
 
Hello, I have a hunch this may not be the last post in this thread. 😛

dcdurel, we don’t need you to copy/paste articles from ARN or Discovery.org, just post the links like I do. 😃

How many times does Phillip Johnson (a lawyer for crying out loud with no professional science training) need to be defeated in debate by Kenneth Miller (a Ph.D. biologist for crying out loud) anyway? It’s three times already at least. 😃

Johnson defeated by Miller round 1 1996
Johnson defeated by Miller round 2 1997
Johnson defeated by Miller round 3 1998

Ken Miller 3, Phil Johnson 0. 👍

And Johnson was thoroughly trounced in the book Darwinism Defeated? The Johnson-Lamoureux Debate on Biological Origins (Regent College, 1999). Lamoureux is an evangelical Christian with a Ph.D. in biology and an “evolutionary creationist.” I have the book, get it, read it. Johnson thinks scientists say whales evolved from “rodents.” (from Darwin On Trial, both 1991 and 1993 versions). Now he knows better. Please folks, if you argue against evolution get your facts straight.

Johnson basically tells Dawkins to stick to science not philosophy. That is Johnson’s only valid point. And Eugenie Scott of the NCSE frankly agrees (see round 2 debate above). But there’s nothing at all to Johnson’s “scientific” critique and he offers no scientific alternative to evolution. Miller shows that both in his debates, and his book Finding Darwin’s God where Johnson gets trounced again. Aw, too bad. :rolleyes:

I am sympathetic to ID since I do believe in God the creator, but like many on this thread I don’t think it should be taught in science classes. And yes, it is basically a fundamentalist/evangelical movement, all the old “creationists” from the 1970s and 1980s are now “IDers.” :rolleyes:

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
I am sympathetic to ID since I do believe in God the creator, but like many on this thread I don’t think it should be taught in science classes.
It is permissible – mandatory for a Catholic – to believe God created the universe. The problem is, like any other general idea, it can be warped out of all recognition. And this is what ID does.
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PhilVaz:
And yes, it is basically a fundamentalist/evangelical movement, all the old “creationists” from the 1970s and 1980s are now “IDers.” :rolleyes:

Phil P
And as opposed to Catholicism as it is to evolution.
 
Helloooooo dcdurel. I just want to make sure you didn’t miss my last post with three questions for you. Did you see it? What do you think?

Remember, your own thoughts, not some cut and paste job!

Peace

Tim
 
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dcdurel:
Another tip-off was the sharp contrast I noticed between the extremely dogmatic tone that Darwinists use when addressing the general public and the occasional frank acknowledgments, in scientific circles, of serious problems with the theory. For example, I would read Stephen Jay Gould telling the scientific world that Darwinism was effectively dead as a theory. And then in the popular literature, I would read Gould and other scientific writers saying that Darwinism was fundamentally healthy, and that scientists had the remaining problems well under control. There was a contradiction here, and it looked as though there was an effort to keep the outside world from becoming aware of the serious intellectual difficulties.
What’s happening here is that evolution explains experimental evidence A, B, C, D, etc., up to P, but it doesn’t seem to fit Q at all. The scientists need to focus their effort on Q; they are in no danger in losing sight of the success of evolution with respect to A, B, C, …, up to P.

The general public, on the other hand, needs to hear the message about the overall success of evolution with respect to A, B, C, …, up to P. The intelligent design advocates seem to think that because of Q, we should just throw away the theory of evolution, without having any other scientific theory to replace it with that explains A, B, C, …, up to P. But that’s just not how science works. The main problem with intelligent design as a scientific theory is that it makes no scientific predictions of its own; basically, all it says is “evolution is wrong” without offering an alternative explanation for the experimental evidence that evolution successfully explains.

Here, Q is something like irreducible complexity. A generation ago, evolution was having trouble explaning P, e.g., the lack of a mechanism that can cause large scale mutations in the DNA structure. Now we know several such mechanisms, and I’m sure in another generation, there will be an explanation for irreducible complexity.
 
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