Ex-Catholic

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This is why it is imperative that the government discourage homosexuality, and discourage the notion that it is a permanent, genetically inherited trait. People who experience same sex attraction, for their own benefit, can and should be dissuaded from this lifestyle and referred to professionals who will help them to lead a normal life. Legal recognition of homosexual unions would serve only to further entrench the notions that “once a homosexual, always a homosexual,” and that same sex attractions are healthy, normal, and ought to be explored, and thus would cause more people to become entrapped in this dangerous lifestyle.

“There is still another reason why the government should discourage homosexual behavior: the government has a vested interest in preserving traditional morality. Since the family is the fundamental building block of society, the survival of the nation as a whole is ultimately dependent upon the health of its families. If the moral health of a nation decays to the point where its families no longer produce enough children to support the elderly, as seems to be happening in countries like Germany, Greece, Bulgaria, Italy, the Czech Republic, Romania, and Spain, this is a sure sign of imminent cultural death [19]. This is to be avoided at all costs. Well, widespread acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle choice for anyone who is so inclined could only exacerbate these problems. Hence the policies of the federal and state governments should be conducive to a society wherein those who experience same-sex attraction are encouraged to seek treatment, reform themselves, and ultimately overcome their temptations to the dangerous homosexual lifestyle and become fully functional members of society: husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers. Obviously, granting legal recognition to homosexual unions would have the exact opposite effect. This is why homosexual marriage, and even civil union, can not and must not be allowed to become a recognized institution of American public life.”

[4]In 1991, Dr. LeVay claimed that there was a difference between the brains of homo and heterosexual men. In 1993, Dr. Hamer claimed to have found a gene on the x chromosome which caused homosexuality.

[5]Crewdson, J. (1995) Study on ‘gay gene’ challenged. Chicago Tribune. June 25.; Horgan, J. (1995) “Gay genes, revisited: Doubts arise over research on the biology of homosexuality,” Scientific American . November : 28.†

[6]Byne, W., Parsons, B. (1993) “Human sexual orientation: The biologic theories reappraisal,” Archives of General Psychiatry. 50: p. 228.

[7]Bailey, J. Pillard, R. (1991) “A genetic study of male sexual orientation,” Archives of General Psychiatry. 48: p. 1089.

[8]Bieber, I. et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books. p. 316.†; Fitzgibbons, R. (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. In Wolfe, C., Homosexuality and American Public Life, Washington DC: Spense. p. 88.†

[9]Harry, J. (1989) “Parental physical abuse and sexual orientation in males,” Archives of Sexual Behavior. 18, 3: p. 259.†

[10]American Psychiatric Association (1994) “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual IV,” Washington DC: APA. p. 536.†

[11]Rekers, G. (1988) “The formation of homosexual orientation,” In Fagan, P., Hope for Homosexuality , Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.†

[12]Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.†

[13]Tripp, C. Hatterer, L. (1971) “Can homosexuals change with Psychotherapy”? Sexual Behavior. 1, 4: p. 42 - 49.†

[14]According to Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg [Homosexualities: A study of Diversity Among Men and Women, p. 308, Table 7, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978.‡], in 1978 15 percent of white, gay men claimed 100-249 sex partners, 17 percent claimed 250- 499, 15 percent claimed 500-999, and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000.

[15]“With repeated trauma, friction and stretching, the sphincter loses its tone and its ability to maintain a tight seal. Consequently, anal intercourse leads to leakage of fecal material that can easily become chronic. The potential for injury is exacerbated by the fact that the intestine has only a single layer of cells separating it from highly vascular tissue, that is, blood. Therefore, any organisms that are introduced into the rectum have a much easier time establishing a foothold for infection than they would in a vagina. The single layer tissue cannot withstand the friction associated with penile penetration, resulting in traumas that expose both participants to blood, organisms in feces, and a mixing of bodily fluids” [Dr. John R. Diggs, Jr., “The Health Risks of Gay Sex.” Corporate Resource Council (2002)].

[16]Anne Rompalo, “Sexually Transmitted Causes of Gastrointestinal Symptoms in Homosexual Men,” Medical Clinics of North America, 74(6): 1633-1645 (November 1990).‡
 
[17]Theo Sandfort, Ron de Graaf, et al., “Same-sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders,” Archives of General Psychiatry, 58(1): pp. 85-91, (January 2001).

[18]R. S. Hogg, S. A. Strathdee, et al., “Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men,” International Journal of Epidemiology, 26(3): 657-661, p. 659 (1997).‡

[19]C.f. Lizette Alvarez, “Scotland Takes Action To Halt Drop In Population,” The New York Times, November 30, 2003, p. 1-4.; “Fertility Rates,” God’s Plan for Life, godsplanforlife.org/fertility_rates.htm
 
Halfway through this thread, the idea that Shari posted was blazing in neon letters in my head.

To the OP: I suggest going to Adoration, just sit with the Lord and pray, “Please lead me to your Truth. Help me find Your way. Please let my mind be open to what You want me to do.”

Now, no matter what opinion you have on Church teachings, these prayers are not bad at all. I suggest at least 1/2 hour adoration every couple of days, if not everyday until you get this issue resolved. 🙂
 
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ex-catholic:
KARL,

For the record, I have not abandoned my faith I have simply redefined it in order to exclude the catholic church. I cannot belong to a Church with such hardline stances and self serving agendas. Perhaps I’ll take a look at the protestant church, not that It will be any different (At this point I should mention that I am the son of a Roman Catholic father and Protestant mother).

I also dont feel I am being a poor friend in that I no longer think that homosexuality (or the act) is a sin.

but thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, you have given me some things to consider.
People didn’t like Jesus taking hardline stances either. You’re going to find very few…likely zero…Protestant Churches that will embrace homosexuality. Perhaps, you should start a church of your own…like King Henry VIII? If you ever want, “Truth”…come on back to the Catholic Church.
 
No one knows absolutley whether people are “born” homosexual or not and whether we ever find out, who knows, what I can tell you from my life experience in the law enforcement field investigating peadophiles and the likes is that whatever tendencies people may have, the reality is that life experience is the main cause of people engaging in a homosexual lifestyle.

For those of you who want to accept the line that homosexuals are born that way, also have to accept the line that peadophiles are born that way, people who have sex with animals are born that way and so on and so on, why, becasue they all say they can’t help the way they are and in some way try to make out they were made like that.

The reality is that we have been given free will by God and we all make choices, unfortunatley due to life experience some people have it harder when making choices due to their experiences.

I tell you know, when that young prebucent child is sexually abused, most of the time they are completely unaware that there is anything wrong with it, so therfor there is no guilt attached to it. It is only when they get older and find out that what happened to them wasn’t acceptable do they start feeling guilt and then of course if their abuse was of a homosexual experience, they feel guilt becasue society says its wrong, but their experience for the most part was not bad. Therefor, they have this experience of sexual relations with someone of the same sex, how much easier to do the same again.
 
To say that a lifetstyle or tendency is sinfull. I am sorry that some catholics were not charitable in their treatment of your friend…

It is the job of the church to uphold that wich it has recived from the apostles and contained in scripture. the homsexual act being sinful is one of them…

It is also church teaching to love the sinner not the sin…
 
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ex-catholic:
KARL,

For the record, I have not abandoned my faith I have simply redefined it in order to exclude the catholic church. I cannot belong to a Church with such hardline stances and self serving agendas. Perhaps I’ll take a look at the protestant church, not that It will be any different (At this point I should mention that I am the son of a Roman Catholic father and Protestant mother).

Dear Ex-Catholic,
If you were to move to the church of my Baptist
friend,you would have a problem if you like an alcoholic drink.I would like to know exactly what your moral position is.I have heard,for example,a drug user say that my generation had its
alcohol and his/her generation was just having its drug use.They
use the same argument as some alcohol users,that they are in control.I don’t really believe them.
People who delve into pornography defend their
actions,on the grounds that they do not go out and rape or indecently assault anyone.I suspect that it is fear of being caught which deters them.If you go down the path you seem to be taking,you have no case against the pornographer.
My great -grandparents were not catholics,but i have no inclination to be anywhere else but the Catholic Church.
I personally have suffered unkindness from all sorts,not just from
churchgoers.I have heard an atheist being totally unsympathetic
to junkies,saying that noone forces them to do it.I have also heard a young woman saying she no longer went to church,simply because she couldn’t be bothered getting out of bed on Sunday morning.I could suggest that some people stop going to church simply because it lets them do certain things without feeling a hypocrite.There are those who would wring their hands in hypocritical horror if i blotted my copybook,but would
do worse themselves.Apparently,it is o.k.for them to do it because they don’t believe in the Bible.Their attitude is that,while wealthy types evade taxes,they see nothing wrong with a bit of shoplifting.
I would love to know what these self-serving agendas
in the Church are.
 
You and your friend are in my prayers.
Have you ever read the Bible and wondered why the Jews kept failing the tests of obedience that God gave them. As you read time after time you think, “How could they be so dumb?” Then we look at our lives and see that we do the same thing.

On the surface, doing what “feels” right to you will lead you into problems you cannot imagine. How will you feel if you support your friend and leave the church only to find years later that your friend is terminal with AIDS and you have not been spiritually fed? God’s way is always best and he gives us laws to protect us not to make our life more difficult. He only asks us to trust Him.

Here are some resources that will support you and your friend in your search for TRUTH which is JESUS.

tfp.org/Online%20Store/store.htm
This is an excellent book exposing the Homosexual agenda.

lifesite.net/ldn/2002/aug/02082703.html
This is APA support for “Reorientation Therapy”

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289&T1=journey+home
This is a search page on EWTN. You need to go to program #29 Scott McDermott. You can listen to his conversion from Atheism and Homosexuality. It will show you how God works when you open yourself to Him.

Again, Love and Prayers
 
No one is born homosexual, just as no one is born an alcoholic. There may be a genetic tendency toward homosexuality in some people, just as there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to alcoholism among certain ethnic groups (such as the Irish, Scandinavians, Russians, and American Indians).
Karl,

As the preeminent apologist, are you saying this is Church teaching, scientific fact, or your opinion? The Church does not teach what you state and science also does not have an answer for this. Indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the psychology of homosexuality is largely unexplained and this seems to be the majority scientific response as well.

From the catechism:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures.** Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.** Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
The inclusive, ‘no one is born homosexual’ is not Church teaching, simply because that isn’t something the Church feels it can teach. But if someone is born as a homosexual, they too can reach Christian perfection. You also explained that it may be a genetic disposition so - does that not imply that you believe that some people may be born homosexual?

Like the catechism, you should have focused and should focus on the choices people make regardless of their genetic disposition. The choices make the sin.

You also said:
  1. Your friend says he always sensed that he was a homosexual, but his “always” would not have extended backward past puberty. Pre-adolescents, almost by definition, are unaware of internal sexual impulses. At best your friend has retrojected his present state into his earliest years, in order to justify himself.
I recommend reading about sexuality in children. Sexual impulses exist, but not in their fullness reached after puberty. The latent impulses during childhood can be expressed through an attraction to the same sex. It is believed that children are not born gender neutral and therefore must be taught to be attracted to the opposite or the same sex.
 
I understood Karl’s meaning to be that no one is born in such a way that they are compelled to drink (in the case of the alcoholic), or compelled to commit homosexual acts. I took it as answering the general implication by some that the drive to commit homosexual acts is “hard-wired” in birth and is as fixed as having ten toes and fingers.

Scott
 
Humans are hard-wired for sex. We are to be fruitful and multiply. But, it’s a choice God gives to us whether one engages in it or not. That is the issue. Is that what Karl was saying?
 
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astralis:
Humans are hard-wired for sex. We are to be fruitful and multiply. But, it’s a choice God gives to us whether one engages in it or not. That is the issue. Is that what Karl was saying?
I think it is (and I’ll let him answer). Humans are not hard-wired for sex in the sense that it is compulsory like the vulcan seven-year mating urge. 🙂

Scott
 
CMOM, it is a matter of experience and knowledge of human nature.

If you took a male baby of 6 months of age and placed him on an island with only homosexual men and let him be brought up with them then he would practice homosexual sex down the track, and he would not have any guilt about practicing homosexual, until such time as one day they let him off the Island and he strolls back into regular society and finds out that homosexuality is not standard practice, and that he has been lied to etc.

Sexual pleasure is about achieving orgasm ultimately (I am talking in base animal terms) . Think about those who have fetishes to maybe something like leather or latex, Those products when used in a particualr way for them induce greater sexual pleasure, but the reality is they could not have that natural latex fetish in the womb becasue latex is not a natural product.

That fetish must be learnt/developed/experienced, so therefor most of them at some stage to find out whether latex gives them sexual plesure must first experiment against normal society standards and “have a go” so to speak.
 
I think it is (and I’ll let him answer). Humans are not hard-wired for sex in the sense that it is compulsory like the vulcan seven-year mating urge.
Scott,

I agree. Now you’re speaking my language! But, Karl did say humans are not born homosexual when correcting ex-Catholic.

Tim,

umm…I’ll let a scientist handle that and I think the Church has decided the same thing.
 
Love the sinner and hate the sin. Good advice for the people in your parish.

You should read what the Early Church Fathers wrote about the topic, along with God’s inspired Word, The Bible, says about it.
 
no such things as ex catholics only confused Catholics like Karl Keating who is dishing out confusion by the poison pen…

Listen to what the Spirit has to say…

Love and repentence ARE the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven
 
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friendofgod:
no such things as ex catholics only confused Catholics like Karl Keating who is dishing out confusion by the poison pen…
Whoa. Karl Keating is the last guy I would call “confused”
Listen to what the Spirit has to say…
Does this mean “listen to the mirror”?
Love and repentence ARE the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven
Don’t forget the keys that Peter (and his successors) hold (Matthew 16:18-20)
 
Imagine if we all left the Catholic Church and started up our own churches that fit in with the lifetsyle we wanted.

We would all be like Henry VIII.

I want a divorce, so lets start a church that will give me one.

Personally, I dont like some of the teachings that the Catholic Church teach, but know that they are only telling me what God has told her past teachers.

Sometimes I get angry at God for not wanting me to get drunk, as sometimes it is fun to go out and get sloshed with my mates.

Then I get angry that Im not supposed to get angry.

And the circle of sin goes on.

But I never get angry at the Church for all of this.

God works through the Church. So I get angry at God, and also know He forgives me.

We have a father/daughter relationship dont we ?

Anyway, that is my view, and I pray you will listen to what God wants from you “Ex-Catholic” , as His will is the Truth

Love Kellie
 
We always have free will.

“I put before you life and death, choose life that you may live.” - God in the Scriptures.
 
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