Ex-Catholic

[twf]

This is an Evangelical Protestant source, but I think it’s a fairly good article on some of the factors that may be involved in the formation of one’s sexual orientation. It also includes some info on how most (if not all) homosexuals are, at least to some degree at some point in their life, bisexual (even if it is to a very small degree)…arguably everyone is, somewhat.
answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/tj_v9n1_homosex.asp

 

[_Christopher]

It is true what I once read in “Radio Replies…”

Nobody leaves the Church for a higher moral standard.

 

[Shibboleth]

Ex-Catholic

Starting out I just want to put up front that I was baptized Catholic and am in the process of converting to Lutheran. I hope that that gives a little weight to what I am about to say.

With the explanations that you are putting forth on this thread, I see no reason why you should leave the Catholic Church. As you pointed out, I have also seen some pretty bigoted and hateful behavior by Catholics towards homosexuals, but I have also seen the same behaviors in the Lutheran, Wesleyan, Ani-Baptist, and Calvinist faiths. Outside of churches such as The Church of St. Matthew the Martyr you are going to have to deal with this behavior. Churches of this nature choose to cloister and segregate themselves from the traditional faiths and I do not think that this is the right course of action. Only speak with your feet if your voice fails to be heard.

The Catholic Church is a great church with great people. Do not let outlying issues drive you away. Not all things are as they seem. In the past the Catholic Church has put bans on everything from sausage, eating utensils, and crossbows – unless you are using them against non-Christians then fire at will. The same is true on some issues with homosexuality.

Have your friend read: “Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality by John Boswell. The cover usually has a picture of Saint Bacchus and Saint Serge – just looking into the history of these Saints should give you a good picture of what to expect.

Also, he should do an in-depth study of the history of Christian marriage – he will be surprised at what he finds.

Do not feel that since you are Catholic that you need to abandon or condemn your friend. Matthew 5:1 – 5:12 shows that there are many paths that a Christian may follow but they are all blessed. Do not try to be the Saint of All Things.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I–
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
– Robert Frost

 

[srkbdk]

Shibboleth:

Ex-Catholic

Starting out I just want to put up front that I was baptized Catholic and am in the process of converting to Lutheran. I hope that that gives a little weight to what I am about to say.

With the explanations that you are putting forth on this thread, I see no reason why you should leave the Catholic Church. As you pointed out, I have also seen some pretty bigoted and hateful behavior by Catholics towards homosexuals, but I have also seen the same behaviors in the Lutheran, Wesleyan, Ani-Baptist, and Calvinist faiths. Outside of churches such as The Church of St. Matthew the Martyr you are going to have to deal with this behavior. Churches of this nature choose to cloister and segregate themselves from the traditional faiths and I do not think that this is the right course of action. Only speak with your feet if your voice fails to be heard.

The Catholic Church is a great church with great people. Do not let outlying issues drive you away. Not all things are as they seem. In the past the Catholic Church has put bans on everything from sausage, eating utensils, and crossbows – unless you are using them against non-Christians then fire at will. The same is true on some issues with homosexuality.

Have your friend read: “Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality by John Boswell. The cover usually has a picture of Saint Bacchus and Saint Serge – just looking into the history of these Saints should give you a good picture of what to expect.

Also, he should do an in-depth study of the history of Christian marriage – he will be surprised at what he finds.

Do not feel that since you are Catholic that you need to abandon or condemn your friend. Matthew 5:1 – 5:12 shows that there are many paths that a Christian may follow but they are all blessed. Do not try to be the Saint of All Things.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I–
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
– Robert Frost

Wow well said.

Now will you start a thread with why you are leaving the Church??

 

[Shibboleth]

I am not really leaving the Catholic Church. Although I was baptized Catholic, when my mother decided to remarry it was to an individual that was divorced, she did not have the ability at the time to have an annulment. Consequently, I went to a Methodist Church through the fist period of my life. When it came to the time to go through Methodist confirmation classes I declined, I knew that it was not the denomination for me. I believe in the true and present body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. I also have a love for the Sacraments.

So, why Lutheran and not Catholic? Well some of my beliefs go against the Catholic Cannon Law. This puts me at an impasse, because even if I disagree with Cannon Law, if I were Catholic I should hold them dear and follow them. I believe in the Church catholic.

One of my favorite lines every by a Pope is when the current Pope met with the Jewish he said, “I am Joseph your brother,”

 

[Hananiah]

Shibboleth:

The Catholic Church is a great church with great people. Do not let outlying issues drive you away. Not all things are as they seem. In the past the Catholic Church has put bans on everything from sausage, eating utensils, and crossbows – unless you are using them against non-Christians then fire at will. The same is true on some issues with homosexuality.

The Catholic Church has never declared sausage or eating utinsils intrinsically evil. Banning them at one time or another was a matter of prudential judgment, much like the Council of Jerusalem’s decision to mandate that Gentile Christians abstain from blood and things strangled. Disciplines such as these may be changed at any time. However, that homosexuality is sinful is part of the Tradition of the Church which can never change. The Catholic Church has condemned sodomy as revolting in the sight of God always and everywhere. Like the Church’s teaching on abortion, this teaching is infallible.

Shibboleth:

Have your friend read: “Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality by John Boswell. The cover usually has a picture of Saint Bacchus and Saint Serge – just looking into the history of these Saints should give you a good picture of what to expect.

traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/009br1.htm

 

[Sparky]

cmom:

I tell you know, when that young prebucent child is sexually abused, most of the time they are completely unaware that there is anything wrong with it, so therfor there is no guilt attached to it. .

Cite some actual proof for this please.

Amen to that. As a woman who was abused at that time, I’d have to say it’s a bunch of hooey.

In any event, Ex-Catholic, there’s something you really should understand. God says in scripture:

“My ways are not your ways.”

In your post, you’ve gone on about what you want, what you feel, what you think. What about what God thinks? Does it matter to you? And how do you think God communicated what he wants of us?

He does it through his Church. How do I know this? Scripture says so.

Think about this quote for a second:

*Matthew 16: 17-19
And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. *

Wow. Gates of Hell won’t prevail? He’s promising that the Church will never crumble, nor will it teach evil because Christ will protect it.

Here’s the rest:
*And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. *

Here he’s saying that Peter (the pope) has the right to make law on earth that is also law in heaven. In other words, the Church has the right to say what is right and wrong in Christ’s stead, and because Christ protects it, it cannot be incorrect about what is right and what is wrong!

This was Christ’s own promise to Peter the first pope. And our present pope holds the same name of Peter as one of his titles. He is the rock now. And if you read JPII’s writing on the Theology of the Body, you’ll understand where the church stands with regards to your friend.

One of my best friends is gay also. I love him dearly and pray for him. All I can do is continue to love him, even if I know he is a sinner. I , too, am a sinner. And I ask God’s mercy on him and upon myself.

But the Church is God’s law on earth. And God’s ways are not our ways. But we have to do our best to follow his ways, because they are best for us.

Hope this all makes sense.
–Ann

 

[kamz]

ex-catholic
please answer me this,
My dad and mom have been married for 40 years, they have practiced the rythm method as their form of birth control for 40 years so that means unprotected sex, in 40 years they are both healthy and no aids or h.i.v., why? Well, God intented for one man to be with one woman in marriage. So, if God made man to be with man, then why if they don’t use a condom would they have a huge likelyhood of getting h.i.v. and Aids? If God wanted man to be with man why on earth would he allow such a horrible disease? Why can’t a man and a man make a baby? or a woman and a woman by themselves without invitro make a baby? Because if God wanted them together then they would be able to make babies and they would not give eachother aids?
Is it not so obvious that homosexuality is not from God? Living in sin without being married (man and woman) also a big sin, using drugs, drinking to excess, big sins, abortion etc.
This is the Catholic church and I’m so glad they stick to their guns in this, the church has always been the same but society has changed so they want the church to change and that can never happen, sorry that you choose to turn your back, you have that right but I’m so thankful that I have the right to go to a church who remains steadfast and the same. Jesus said go and sin no more, not go and sin some more. Hate the sin love the sinner, I can hate the sin of homosexuality and still care about the sinner but I can’t pretend that the sin is ok. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more, her sins of fornication were forgiven, she was given a second chance but would she have walked away and gone to sin some more with sleeping around she really would have just been slapping Jesus in the face. We know that masturbation is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church, so lets say you masturbate, you know its a sin, you go to confession, you ask for forgiveness, you are forgiven, but, now, you go do it again, and you think, well, I’ll just ask for forgiveness? God is no fool.

 

[SeanG]

ex-catholic:

That is an excellent point, DominvsVobiscvm . Thank you.

I can see from the responses that you are all good people and your commitment to your faith and the church is admirable.

Thank you for all of your help. I will take these postings under advisement.

Folks, you can keep on asking ex-catholic all the questions that you want, but it would appear from his last post quoted above that he is finished with this thread.

 

[Shibboleth]

Hananiah:

The Catholic Church has never declared sausage or eating utinsils intrinsically evil. Banning them at one time or another was a matter of prudential judgment, much like the Council of Jerusalem’s decision to mandate that Gentile Christians abstain from blood and things strangled. Disciplines such as these may be changed at any time. However, that homosexuality is sinful is part of the Tradition of the Church which can never change. The Catholic Church has condemned sodomy as revolting in the sight of God always and everywhere. Like the Church’s teaching on abortion, this teaching is infallible.

traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/009br1.htm

I will give anyone that at times Boswell’s book has conjecture, but it is not like Black Athena and other such works that essentially rewrite history with bias and unfounded claims.

He is a well-studied individual that understands proper research. The argument that is in that link has actually caries with it more conjecture than most of what is in Boswell’s book. I am not saying that the Catholic Church ever claimed that homosexuality was O.K. but it was not condemned on the level that it is now. John Chrysostom did speak out about homosexuality vehemently and I believe that he lived somewhere about 300 – 400 A.D. and Boswell notes this….

The information that I gave the person to read is not an end point but a starting point. Homosexual acts are a sin; there is no argument on that, if for no other reason than it is premarital relations….

But, I would be willing to bet that there are people on this board that are engaging in premarital relations, adultery, spilling of their seed, the use of birth control, etc. Preach the gospel but do so in a way that does not cast stones. This is a hard thing to do but I believe that it can be done.

Lastly use a concordance to look up all of the uses of abomination in the Bible. The word abomination is not an end-all nor does it mean the same today as it did before…I engage in Old Testament abominations daily.

Kamz – should we let those that are sterile, eunuchs, or women over the age of menopause marry? The Bible does say some things about this. I am not saying that the Church should support Gay marriages, just that it should be consistent.

 

[srkbdk]

Shibboleth:

.

Kamz – should we let those that are sterile, eunuchs, or women over the age of menopause marry? The Bible does say some things about this. I am not saying that the Church should support Gay marriages, just that it should be consistent.

I am confused where has the Church not been consistent when it comes to Gay marriages?

I am unaware of any time on faith and morals where the Church has not been consistent. Yes there were periods of discussion but once the matter was settled it does not change. Displines however can do and must be open to change.

 

[Shibboleth]

Not gay marriage but marriage in general. It uses the scripture to define why homosexuals and priests should not marry but it does allow eunuchs to do so, unless I am mistaken.

The Hebrew word for eunuch in the Old Testament is “caric” and is synonymous with chamberlain – The Greek word in the New Testament is “eunouchizo” and is a combination of two words ‘enue’ meaning [bed] and ‘echo’ meaning to [hold.] Chamberlain or holder of the woman’s bedchambers.

Matthew 19:12 explains very well the different kinds of eunuchs that by definition should not marry because they cannot become of one flesh. Those that are that way by birth, those that are that way because of acts of man [castration], and those that cannot because the have chosen to make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven [priests.]

If we say that homosexuals and priests cannot marry because they cannot make children we must also conclude that eunuchs, sterile men, and postmenopausal women should also not be allowed to marry.

 

[breneriu]

Being homosexual is not a sin,but practicing homosexuality is. Take a straight man for instance.Would it be allright for a straight man to commit fornication or even a married man to commit adultry.No.Because the bible says we should’nt.Just as a straight man must resist these temptations so must a homosexual must resist his desires.Take it from me .I’m married,but when I see a very beautiful women I struggle with my thoughts,but I know that I must always stay faithful to my wife, its hard but I pray to God for strenghth at those times of weakness.So we all have our crosses to bear, the staraight man as well as a homosexual.We must live our lives as God intended us to live.Do you need a guide book?Well I can only think of one…the Bible.

 

[asquared]

ex-Catholic, bless you for being a good friend, hope you will try to be the best friend you can, and be totally honest. What if you had a friend who was an alcoholic, began drinking at an early age, cannot remember a time when he did not crave alcohol. You might detest a lot of his behavior while he is drunk, but you don’t withdraw your friendship. You also do not want to be an enabler, or co-dependent, or do anything to condone those actions. You certainly would not serve him a drink at your home, or enable him to drink elsewhere. You would love him no matter what, but would not try to shield him from the consequences of his actions. No matter how deep your sympathy for him, and desire to see him have the best of life, you would not be able to condone his insistence on continued drinking.

That is the kind of love the Church would have us show our friends and relatives who are struggling with homosexuality.

By the way, eunechs (spelling?) are not free to marry in the Catholic Church. By canon law (1054? I will look it up and post) neither a man who is incapable of erection and penetration, or a woman who is incapable of receiving the genital sexual penetration can contract a valid Catholic marriage. To marry with this condition, assuming it could not be medically corrected, would be grounds for annulment.

 

[KathyT]

ex-catholic:

As my user name should suggest, I am an EX-catholic. 6 months ago I would not have imagined I would be saying this but, in the here and now, I am. I have lost faith in the catholic institution, not my faith in God. There are many reasons. The biggest reason, and one that has got me in to a lot of hot water, is that I am fully support my best friend who is gay. He told me about 6 months ago. We grew up together and he is like a brother. People from our church have been downright mean (putting it VERY mildly) with regards to his homosexuality. I believe him when he says he was born that way as he has no reason to lie to me. I see no reason for the chuch to take such a stern position and condone his sexuality. I do not believe it to be a sin. I think the fact that he had the courage to com out speaks to his strength of character and determination to make the most of his short time on this planet. Whether or not homosexuality is wrong is up to interpretation. In this day and age I do not think it is up to the church to dictate morals or the way a person is to live his or her life. In this day and age, I think the church should be here for moral guidance and to help in building a relationship with Our Lord. Most people that I know do NOT agree with my views. Although I think I know what kind of response I will get from this forum, I would still like to see how other people that I do not personally know, think of this.

If not in this day and age, when? It is up to the Church to guide its flock to heaven. They have every right to preach on the morals taught by Jesus Christ and in the Old Testament. I am sorry your friend is not being treated very well by the church. The catholic church beleives that all human life is a gift from God and should be loved by all. I have several friends who are gay, and they are very devout Catholics. They do not follow a gay lifestyle. In essence they are celebate. There are several groups for homosexuals to help them live a moral life in the Catholic Church.

God bless you and your friend. May He hold you in His arms and give you comfort and peace.

 

[E.E.N.S]

ex-catholic:

As my user name should suggest, I am an EX-catholic. 6 months ago I would not have imagined I would be saying this but, in the here and now, I am. I have lost faith in the catholic institution, not my faith in God. There are many reasons. The biggest reason, and one that has got me in to a lot of hot water, is that I am fully support my best friend who is gay. He told me about 6 months ago. We grew up together and he is like a brother. People from our church have been downright mean (putting it VERY mildly) with regards to his homosexuality. I believe him when he says he was born that way as he has no reason to lie to me. I see no reason for the chuch to take such a stern position and condone his sexuality. I do not believe it to be a sin. I think the fact that he had the courage to com out speaks to his strength of character and determination to make the most of his short time on this planet. Whether or not homosexuality is wrong is up to interpretation. In this day and age I do not think it is up to the church to dictate morals or the way a person is to live his or her life. In this day and age, I think the church should be here for moral guidance and to help in building a relationship with Our Lord. Most people that I know do NOT agree with my views. Although I think I know what kind of response I will get from this forum, I would still like to see how other people that I do not personally know, think of this.

This is not in response to homosexuality, but in your attitude towards things…reading your post I noticed that you said a lot of “I think this…” or “I think that…” etc…but what about the others that “think” differently - who’s right and who’s wrong?
One more thing to ponder - it’s ALL God’s law right? (Rules/gravity/creation/sin/salvation/EVERYTHING!) Well, what if I believe/thought that if I jumped off a 40 story building I wouldn’t die? Do you think that “believing/thinking” sometihng makes it so? No, it doesn’t! When Jesus said to Peter “What ever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven…” one must ask, “did he bind anything?” And then go and find out!

(I do not mean to sound harsh, and I appoligize if I did, I am only stating a very brief thought of mine when I realized that my personal beliefs do not make things so, God made them so, and I just want to find out to the best of my ability what those things are.)

God bless!

 

[Strider]

Shibboleth:

I I believe in the true and present body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. I also have a love for the Sacraments.
So, why Lutheran and not Catholic? Well some of my beliefs go against the Catholic Cannon Law.because even if I disagree with Cannon Law, if I were Catholic I should hold them dear and follow them. I believe in the Church catholic.QUOTE]

Shibboleth,
I don’t understand. You say you believe in the True Presence in the Eucharist and that you believe in the “Church catholic.”
And you would deprive yourself of encountering the Body, Blood, Soul and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and put your immortal soul at risk (because you know better) for…what? Pride? A few issues of Canon Law?
Think, man! Think what you are doing.
This reminds me of a story I heard. A young priest went to his pastor and said that he had lost his faith and was leaving the priesthood and the Church.
“All right,” the older man said with a sigh. “But, before you go, I want you to stop by the tabernacle and say goodbye.”
I will offer my holy hour tonight for you.
God bless

 

[E.E.N.S]

Shibboleth:

I I believe in the true and present body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. I also have a love for the Sacraments.
So, why Lutheran and not Catholic? Well some of my beliefs go against the Catholic Cannon Law.because even if I disagree with Cannon Law, if I were Catholic I should hold them dear and follow them. I believe in the Church catholic.

The issue here is this part, “Well some of my beliefs go against the Catholic Cannon Law.”…if your beliefs were that you wouldn’t die if you fell out of a 40 story building, does that make it so?

…

 

[hermit]

Ex-Catholic

I recommend reading some of Fr Greeleys books on Catholicism. He points out many of the dumb reasons people leave the church. If you are going to leave, do so for substantive reasons not because of what some lame priest or obnoxious catholic said.

 

[Mijoy2]

1. No one is born homosexual, just as no one is born an alcoholic. There may be a genetic tendency toward homosexuality in some people, just as there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to alcoholism among certain ethnic groups (such as the Irish, Scandinavians, Russians, and American Indians).

1. Your friend says he always sensed that he was a homosexual, but his “always” would not have extended backward past puberty. Pre-adolescents, almost by definition, are unaware of internal sexual impulses. At best your friend has retrojected his present state into his earliest years, in order to justify himself.

with regards to #1:

Before anyone reads this I want to state up front that I am Catholic. Because I am Catholic I abide by the teachings of the church. Therefore I believe homosexual activity to be sinful.

Now, that I have come back to the church after a 30+ year absence, I still cannot subscribe to this (#1). Actually I am not sure what the difference is between being, genetically-disposed-to, and, born-that-way. Whatever one is geneltically-disposed-to they were genetically-disposed-to since birth.

I do not suggest this is in any way to be a litmus test but; there are men who, via thier obvious traits towards feminity are apparently homosexual. This even transends to the physical in many people. Men and women who exhibit physical traits of the other gender. I believe it is obnvious that there are hormonal imbalances (or abnormalities) that pre-dispose one to sexual tendencies of the other gender. In other words people who are not fully male or fully female. Proof of this would be the fact that thier are people who have (we’ll say parts) of both genders. I believe there exists an entire spectrum of “sexual preference” amongst a given gender. With the vast majority being heterosexual by nature. However, having said this I certainly do believe there are many homosexuals who are born-that-way. Thier traits and tendencies make it apparent.

They have a tremendous cross to bare if they so chose to bare it. Their struggles are great indeed.

with regards to #2:

I knew I was heterosexual well before puberty. Even though I was too young to appreciate what this all meant. I have memories of crushes going back to my pre-school days, all of the opposite gender. Again, I believe our tendencies are with us since birth. I gather this from my most objective as possible observations. Being a Catholic and therefore praying that the homosexual does wish to pick up his/her cross and bare it throughout thier life (which is what makes them different from those of you in this thread who are single and claimed your issues are alike; they are not alike) I wish I could say I believed they were not born-that-way. It would much easier for me to deal with this. As it is, I struggle greatly with the idea that my homosexual brothers and sisters in the faith have been given this tremendous burden to bare.