Ex-Catholic

[fix]

Mijoy2:

with regards to #1:

Before anyone reads this I want to state up front that I am Catholic. Because I am Catholic I abide by the teachings of the church. Therefore I believe homosexual activity to be sinful.

Now, that I have come back to the church after a 30+ year absence, I still cannot subscribe to this (#1). Actually I am not sure what the difference is between being, genetically-disposed-to, and, born-that-way. Whatever one is geneltically-disposed-to they were genetically-disposed-to since birth.

I do not suggest this is in any way to be a litmus test but; there are men who, via thier obvious traits towards feminity are apparently homosexual. This even transends to the physical in many people. Men and women who exhibit physical traits of the other gender. I believe it is obnvious that there are hormonal imbalances (or abnormalities) that pre-dispose one to sexual tendencies of the other gender. In other words people who are not fully male or fully female. Proof of this would be the fact that thier are people who have (we’ll say parts) of both genders. I believe there exists an entire spectrum of “sexual preference” amongst a given gender. With the vast majority being heterosexual by nature. However, having said this I certainly do believe there are many homosexuals who are born-that-way. Thier traits and tendencies make it apparent.

They have a tremendous cross to bare if they so chose to bare it. Their struggles are great indeed.

with regards to #2:

I knew I was heterosexual well before puberty. Even though I was too young to appreciate what this all meant. I have memories of crushes going back to my pre-school days, all of the opposite gender. Again, I believe our tendencies are with us since birth. I gather this from my most objective as possible observations. Being a Catholic and therefore praying that the homosexual does wish to pick up his/her cross and bare it throughout thier life (which is what makes them different from those of you in this thread who are single and claimed your issues are alike; they are not alike) I wish I could say I believed they were not born-that-way. It would much easier for me to deal with this. As it is, I struggle greatly with the idea that my homosexual brothers and sisters in the faith have been given this tremendous burden to bare.

The science of homosexuality is more politics than science. Groups like the APA have an agenda and it is not entirely scientific. These scientists who manipulate data and skewed findings are not starting from the stand point of an eternal truth. They starting positioned is flawed and that colors their outlook and agit prop.

Why does it matter if one is born with a disorder or one aquires a disorder? Either way, medicine exists to eliminate pathology, not endorse it and make it socially acceptable.

The idea that homosexuals, or anyone else, gets to define sin outside of reality is absurd. Just because someone declares they were born a certain way, or “feels” they have certain desires, in no way means those desires are virtuous or to be accepted.

I am a bit tired of so many claiming that homosexuals do not get enough support, or are not loved, or are being shut out by society and the Church. It is the exact opposite. Their perverted behavior is accepted, endorsed, celebrated and discussed to the point that I think many have taken leave of their senses.

In the past, the discussion of such foul things would be unheard of. Today, one is placed in the position of defending one’s self if they stand up for the moral order. We need to be blunt. Show mercy, but not water down the truth.

I do not know that the cross homosexuals bear is greater than anyone else’s. I do know they are masters of drama. They like attention. They have a persecution complex and many have embraced the concept of false compassion.

 

[Mijoy2]

fix:

Why does it matter if one is born with a disorder or one aquires a disorder?

.

This is simple to answer.

If a homosexual was born-that-way, he/she would have no more chance of becoming heterosexual then I have of becoming homosexual. If they aquired it, then it means it is aquirABLE. Therefore can be potentially cured. I’d say there is quite a big difference.

Having said this, and assuming this person choses to be true to his/her Catholic faith, then it means they must give up any chance of experiencing the wonders we get to experience in enjoying another human physically for thier entire existence on earth (assuming they, like the majority of us, choose to).

Disorder or not, if faithful they will follow Christ. My sole point is, they have much to sacrifice. I would say much more then most of us.

I’m in the minority, I know. What I don’t know is why.

 

[fix]

Mijoy2:

This is simple to answer.

If a homosexual was born-that-way, he/she would have no more chance of becoming heterosexual then I have of becoming homosexual. If they aquired it, then it means it is aquirABLE. Therefore can be potentially cured. I’d say there is quite a big difference.

Having said this, and assuming this person choses to be true to his/her Catholic faith, then it means they must give up any chance of experiencing the wonders we get to experience in enjoying another human physically for thier entire existence on earth (assuming they, like the majority of us, choose to).

Disorder or not, if faithful they will follow Christ. My sole point is, they have much to sacrifice. I would say much more then most of us.

I’m in the minority, I know. What I don’t know is why.

That is not true. Genetic disease can be cured. If not now, then in the future. Even if no cure is possible, there could be therapies that render the condition stable or reverse it. There is precedence in medicine for such things.

Courage has done great work. Some homosexuals have “reversed”. It is pop culture wisdom to assume every single person self identified as homosexual must remain that way till death. That wisdom is spread by the homosexual lobby. Don’t buy into it.

I would not say they have more to scarfice. That is insulting to many folks who have large crosses. The fact their agenda has “worked” on you does make me wonder why? Can’t you see that is is an organized effort? Do you think the explosion in all the perversion today is a coincidence?

They are free to marry (heterosexual marry) and enjoy life. They are free to reject the truth and remain deceived and slaves to their passions. They are free to remain single and work out their salvation like the rest of us.

What gets me is this non stop assault on our senses and our sensibilities. The devil is working overtime.

 

[rjdellinger]

Dear Ex-Catholic,

First I will apologize the the treatment that your friend has received from Catholics and other people. In no way does the Catholic Church nor any true Christian condone cruelty to, and or abuse of, any human being. However, Holy Scripture does condemn the sin of homosexual activity. Being born or becoming a homosexual or realizing that one is homosexual in itself is not a sin, however, engaging in homosexuality is a sin. In order to understand one of the reasons why homosexuality is a sin, you have to understand that heterosexuality can also be a sin. As stated in the Holy Scripture, intimate relations (sexual intercourse) is only permitted within the bonds of marriage. Yes, that means that everyone who engages in heterosexual relations outside the bonds of marriage is also committing sin. So having said that, since your friend is engaging in sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage, he is sinning against God and his own body. Furthermore, God only recognizes marriage between a man and a woman. So what is a homosexual to do if he or she wants to remain faithful to God? The answer is to live a life of celibacy. You may think that I am crazy, however, living a life of celibacy is possible. It does require an active prayer life including, but not limited to, fasting. God will always provide the grace and strength necessary to get through any situations in life requiring His help. In the mean time, I will keep you and your friend in my prayers.

 

[RobbyS]

ex-catholic:

DominvsVobiscvm

i don’t think that there is anything that someone could do to show that the Church can and does speak authoritatively on such matters. I admit that right now I am very angry with the church and that, as Karl said, I am trying to justify leaving the church. It was not a decision that I made in a snap, I have been considering it for over a year now, long before this recent issure regarding sexuality and morals. Maybe I just need the time away for self reflection and to evaluate what is right for me in my life. I know I am being influenced by my parents, who both have different views on my decision. I have catholic friends who are trying to “help” me (they’ve gone so far as to have church officials vist my house). I also have friends who aren’t particualrily religious who are “helping” me. I admit that I am more inclined to listen to the less religious people (less religious not meaning non-religious). And then there is the whole reason I am on this message board, I am still conflicted with my decision and am still trying to determine what is best for me.

One thing that you might consider is how the wider society is trying to impose on us its view of homosexuality, indeed its whole view of sexuality. One can hardly turn without encountering an effort by the media to proclaim the “normality” of promiscuous sex and the “abnormality” of chastity. This entails a lot of lying: for instance that the average homosexual is a home-body who just wants to marry. Some gays are --like some drunks–men of abilityand character but with a tragic flaw. Many are not. But you are unlikely to encounter unsavory gay characters in the media. Rather, they give us caricatures of the real thing, somewhat like
the impossibly noble black men we see in the movies. In short, you are being fed a lot of propoganda. But it is up to you to trying to see through them. Pray on it.

 

[stbruno]

couragerc.net/

Courage, an apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church, ministers to those with same-sex attractions and their loved ones. They have been endorsed by the Pontifical Council for the Family.

From this website you will learn about homosexuality and how by developing an interior life of chastity, the universal call to all Christians, one can move beyond the confines of the homosexual identity to a more complete one in Christ

Consider sharing this with your friend. And please reconsider your choice to become an ex-Catholic. Jesus is looking always for his lost sheep!

 

[buffalo]

ex-catholic:

Whether or not homosexuality is wrong is up to interpretation. In this day and age I do not think it is up to the church to dictate morals or the way a person is to live his or her life. In this day and age, I think the church should be here for moral guidance and to help in building a relationship with Our Lord

First off, the Church does not have any authority to change what Jesus taught. She does not have the authority to make the Church a democracy or to change it to the liking of current culture. What Jesus taught is good for all ages.

As to the reactions of the parishioners - some people react negatively if they feel the “gay” lifestyle is being advocated or being pushed on them. Today’s gay agenda is very aggressive and many are not happy with it being advocated as a normal lifestyle. If your friend is pushing the “gay” lifestyle it should not surprise you that other Catholics would reject this. Chastity is key here.

 Your friend claims he was born this way - how would he know?  Current science does not support this.
 
 Here are a couple of links that help explain this better.
 
 **[National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality](http://narth.com/menus/born.html)**
 
 **[Stephen Bennett Ministries](http://www.sbministries.org/)**

And finally what the Church teaches us:

  **About  Homosexuality**

  **2357. "Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .]  tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically  disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."**

  **2358**. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. "

 **2359**. "Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "

 

[buffalo]

A link for friends and family

 

[martino]

ex-catholic:

As my user name should suggest, I am an EX-catholic. 6 months ago I would not have imagined I would be saying this but, in the here and now, I am. I have lost faith in the catholic institution, not my faith in God. There are many reasons. The biggest reason, and one that has got me in to a lot of hot water, is that I am fully support my best friend who is gay. He told me about 6 months ago. We grew up together and he is like a brother. People from our church have been downright mean (putting it VERY mildly) with regards to his homosexuality. I believe him when he says he was born that way as he has no reason to lie to me. I see no reason for the chuch to take such a stern position and condone his sexuality. I do not believe it to be a sin. I think the fact that he had the courage to com out speaks to his strength of character and determination to make the most of his short time on this planet. Whether or not homosexuality is wrong is up to interpretation. In this day and age I do not think it is up to the church to dictate morals or the way a person is to live his or her life. In this day and age, I think the church should be here for moral guidance and to help in building a relationship with Our Lord. Most people that I know do NOT agree with my views. Although I think I know what kind of response I will get from this forum, I would still like to see how other people that I do not personally know, think of this.

There are several errors in your post and I believe it’s important to point them out: 1. The Church’s “stern opposition” is really Love and the true desire for his salvation, even though many individuals in the Church come across as “mean”. 2. You do not believe homosexual acts to be sinful; well it doesnt matter what “you” believe, that is why we have the Church to teach objective moral truth, it isn’t a matter of personal opinion. 3. Do not mistake “strength of character and determination to make the most of his short time on this planet” for virtue; his desire to do as he wishes for sexual gratification regardless of the consequence is selfish not virtuous. 4. Lastly; what is it about “this day and age” that we no longer need to submit to Church authority? Are we really so enlightened now days that we no longer need the guidance of an authoritative Church? The fact that you now reject Church authority and at the same time believe sinful acts to be courageous proves that without the guidance of the Church we really have no hope, especially in this day and age.

 

[martino]

A suggestion for Ex-Catholic: instead of trying to find a church that agrees with you in every way, why dont you just start your own church? I know that sounds a little extreme but the truth is that you will never find a church that you agree with on all things and that will always leave you dissatisfied. But if you start your own Church you can actually “dictate” for yourself and anyone that chooses to join you, what is true and what is false. It is perfect for you, especially because you already know for sure what is true and what is not, all you have to do now is lay it all out for everyone and let them decide to join you or not. You would actually be performing a service for those of us that do not have the gift of infallibility. Good luck with what ever you do and God Bless.