Ex-defence minister Liam Fox: We must arm the Ukrainians as the credibility of the entire Nato alliance is at stake

[Vouthon]

**Ex-defence minister Liam Fox: We must arm the Ukrainians as the credibility of the entire Nato alliance is at stake

Britain and the West should start arming Ukrainian troops to help them fight back against heavily-armed Russian-backed rebels, ex-Defence Secretary Liam Fox has said.
Dr Fox raised fears that the credibility of the entire Nato alliance was now at stake, claiming that the bitter battle in eastern Ukraine had raised the ‘shadow of conflict’ in Europe for the first time since the Cold War ended.

The Conservative MP said it was now crucial that Kiev had the means to defend itself against the separatists who used state-of-the-art Russian weapons to overrun the key town of Debaltseve, despite a ceasefire brokered by Germany and France**.

He said: ‘Specifically, what we should be giving them is encrypted communications, because at moment the old systems they are using make them a sitting target for the Russians whose technology is much better.

‘They need anti-tank weapons because the Russians are using new, better-armoured vehicles against which the Ukrainians have no defence. Thirdly, they need UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones] for targeting

‘We should be giving them the weapons they need to defend themselves against an external threat. This is about their territorial integrity.’

European powers have so far drawn back from arming Kiev, amid fears it could fuel the conflict, although US president Barack Obama has indicated he would consider supplying weapons to Ukraine if the Russians do not pull back. Nato chiefs have also warned that escalating tensions with Russia could explode into all-out war.

‘We should be giving them the weapons they need to defend themselves against an external threat. This is about their territorial integrity.’

European powers have so far drawn back from arming Kiev, amid fears it could fuel the conflict, although US president Barack Obama has indicated he would consider supplying weapons to Ukraine if the Russians do not pull back. Nato chiefs have also warned that escalating tensions with Russia could explode into all-out war.

‘We are confident that over the next few days we are going to make it clear that we are not going to play this game, not going to sit here and be part of this extraordinarily craven behavior at the expense of the sovereignty and integrity of a nation,’ he said.

‘This is behavior that is completely counter to everything that the global community has worked to achieve and put in place ever since World War II, and I’m confident that the United Kingdom, the United States and others are prepared to stand up to it.’

The warning follows the fierce separatist offensive to take the key strategic town of Debaltseve which saw a chaotic withdrawal by Ukrainian soldiers this week.

Kiev and the rebels have accused each other of keeping up the attacks with Ukrainian forces reporting attacks that killed one serviceman and wounded another 40 on Saturday, as mortars hit the outskirts of Mariupol.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963288/US-UK-warn-sanctions-against-extraordinarily-craven-Russia-40-000-streets-Moscow-protest-Ukraine-coup.html#ixzz3SUQXoDJ0

 

[pepipop]

So let’s kill more Ukrainians. Either the separatists will be killed by the U army, or the weapons will be taken off the UA by the separatists and used against them. Either way, more Ukrainians are killed.

Peace talks are the only way forward.

 

[Vouthon]

So let’s kill more Ukrainians. Either the separatists will be killed by the U army, or the weapons will be taken off the UA by the separatists and used against them. Either way, more Ukrainians are killed.

Peace talks are the only way forward.

How can we have peace talks with a nation that continually exploits them and flagrantly flouts them to further its territorial ambitions in a sovereign, independent country?

The West has pursued peace relentlessly with Putin. How about Russia gives it a go now by making real and genuine steps to reign in its importation of heavy weaponry and “volunteers” (conscripts) across its neighbour’s border?

 

[Vouthon]

Correction - England is not a sovereign diplomatic actor in its own right, I think you mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

[Vouthon]

If you look back I made a quick and immediate clarification. The terminology is iffy. Some prefer to say we are “four nations in one country”, others “four countries in one nation”.

The fact remains though, it is the UK and not “England”. You have corrected others when they equated the old USSR with Russia, so I am hardly alone in being “pedantic”.

 

[pepipop]

How can we have peace talks with a nation that continually exploits them and flagrantly flouts them to further its territorial ambitions in a sovereign, independent country?

The West has pursued peace relentlessly with Putin. How about Russia gives it a go now by making real and genuine steps to reign in its importation of heavy weaponry and “volunteers” (conscripts) across its neighbour’s border?

The peace talks have nothing to do with Putin. Russia is not at war with anyone - however it is hoped that he can reason with the separatists. He cannot stop volunteers going over to fight in Ukraine, nor could the Irish government have asked its’ citizens not to join the IRA.

Recently, POWs have been released by both sides and heavy armaments are being pulled out.

 

[Vouthon]

We are arming the Kurds (mainly the Peshmerga), in fact we are training them right now in northern Iraq as well as contributing to the international US-led air campaign.

The Russians are now a legitimate enemy because they are occupying and violating, through militarily-backed proxies and actual conscripts, the territorial integrity of their fellow Slavic neighbour and the home of Kievan Rus, the civilization Russia is supposed to be a joint heir too.

Russia has made itself an enemy through its aggressive actions in Eastern Europe and Putin’s stated argument that he is entitled to protect ethnic Russians no matter what sovereign border they may dwell behind.

This is not conjured up.

 

[Vouthon]

Oh really? Do we honestly want to dig up the ghosts of the Troubles? I think you’re forgetting that I am a Catholic from Scotland of Irish heritage. There is thankfully a peace settlement in NI that the UK has not rescinded but that both sides have kept in good faith. Can’t say the same for Russia can we?

NI is not under occupation. It is an internationally recognised devolved member of the United Kingdom and we had a referendum there that the Nationalists lost in a fair and free election, if you recall. Again, cannot say the same for Russia can we?

 

[pepipop]

Oh really? Do we honestly want to dig up the ghosts of the Troubles? I think you’re forgetting that I am a Catholic from Scotland of Irish heritage. There is thankfully a peace settlement in NI that the UK has not rescinded but that both sides have kept in good faith. Can’t say the same for Russia can we?

Oh and NI is not under occupation. It is a devolved member of the Union and we had a referendum there that the Nationalists lost in a fair and free election. Again, cannot say the same for Russia can we?

In relation to Ukraine, Russia has nothing to do with it, it is in a similar position as Ireland was during the civil conflict in NI, even though a lot of Irish were members of the IRA.

However due to cultural differences and alliances, a portion of the population, in both NI and Ukraine, wish to be associated another country i,e, Ireland and Russia.

 

[Vouthon]

Typical. Deflect from the Putin government’s illegal, expansionist actions by dragging to the fore every dirty deed of the UK government, of course clouded in general statements. Good tactic. I ought to use that as well more often.

The people of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are not “his” people. They live behind the internationally recognised borders of an independent Ukranian state. While the ideology of ethnic nationalism might not recognize these borders, the international community and international law does. Russia has acceded to the same international rules, accords, treaties etc. as every other party.

And it has flagrantly broken them.

 

[Vouthon]

In relation to Ukraine, Russia has nothing to do with it, it is in a similar position as Ireland was during the civil conflict in NI, even though a lot of Irish were members of the IRA.

However due to cultural differences and alliances, a portion of the population, in both NI and Ukraine, wish to be associated another country i,e, Ireland and Russia.

Which is all fine, so long as Russia doesn’t take it into its own hands and invade a sovereign country, least of all a cultural neighbour it shares a common heritage with.

I do not recall the Republic of Ireland ever invading Northern Ireland during the Troubles to protect “ethnic” Irish from Ulstermen in Belfast.

 

[Vouthon]

What you recognize and what the law does are two very different things. Tell me what international authority does not recognize NI as British territory? Tell me what one has ever disputed the most recent referendum that was held there? It was as fair as the recent Scottish one.

The fact remains that a legitimate referendum was held, regardless of earlier misdeeds (and yes I am fully aware of gerrymandering of the vote) that was internationally recognised, whereas this has not taken place in Crimea.

The two examples are poles apart.

 

[pepipop]

Which is all fine, so long as Russia doesn’t take it into its own hands and invade a sovereign country, least of all a cultural neighbour it shares a common heritage with.

I do not recall the Republic of Ireland ever invading Northern Ireland during the Troubles to protect “ethnic” Irish from Ulstermen in Belfast.

Exactly and when did Putin invade Ukraine?

I read this today by a Crimean resident prior to the referendum.

*I live in Sevastopol. On 24 February 2014, 09:00, live interview on Channel 5 in Kiev, owned by Poroshenko, Oleg Tyagnibok clearly stated, heard live, ‘I will bring my 3000 men to Krimea and put every Russian there to the knife’. Tyagnibok is the leader of Svoboda Party and a sitting deputat at the time in Ukraine Rada. Yarush, the leader of Right Sector Party and now a sitting deputat in Ukraine Rada, clearly stated ‘I will bring my 3000 men to Sevastopol, kill every Russian there and burn that city to the ground.’

We took them seriously and the barricades went up the next night. The two roads coming in to Krim from Kherson Oblast, the 5 roads coming in to Sevastopol, and the three roads going in to Yalta were blockaded. The next morning well before dawn Krimea Rada was secured in Simferopol. The rest is history, a done deal.

What would you have had us do, go to some EU or UN court for relief? Right. Not going to happen in this city and this peninsula. VV Putin had zero to do with these actions, it was the citizens of Krimu and Sevastopol who did this, just as it was the citizens who barricaded the Ukraine army and navy in their bases.*

forum.sevastopol.info/

 

[Vouthon]

Which would be fine if this had been conducted with international monitors present entirely within Ukraine itself, as is fitting for a sovereign state, rather than with Russian interference.

Crimea was an illegal annexation. Eastern Ukraine is being separated from the rest of the country by Russian-backed separatists and conscripts. Only Russia doesn’t recognize it as such.

 

[Vouthon]

The fact remains, the Irish government did not act illegally against UK sovereignty as Russia is doing.

 

[Vouthon]

And this is surprising? It was playing politics. You do recall that the USSR prevented Ireland from joining the UN for years because it stayed neutral during WWII. In either case do you really think that the USSR was following a strict interpretation of international law and acting out of humanitarian interest, or following its own national interest? I think the latter. It didn’t exactly act towards Ireland out of any consistent policy.

 

[Vouthon]

So an alleged British wrong from the past makes a contemporary Russian wrong a right?

Please do tell me how that logic works

 

[Vouthon]

Undoubtedly but not all nations use the excuse of ethnic nationalism and the fear of their nuclear weapons status to annex territory from neighbouring countries and make continual provocations against those sympathetic to the victims. That goes far beyond normal “game-playing”.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Absolutely fascinating exchange, complete with time travel back to the Troubles - sorry I was sleeping through it. I just want to say that I agree that the credibility of the entire Nato aliiance IS at stake and I am glad that this is being discussed. However, it seems like discussing things as opposed to doing things is a little bit of a bugbear for the EU…it’s clear to me that “negotiations” are of somewhat limited value here. Looking at the forest, not the trees…

 

[Vouthon]

Absolutely fascinating exchange, complete with time travel back to the Troubles - sorry I was sleeping through it.

An off-topic excursion I didn’t want to embark on either… But of course according to Jharek the “ghosts of the Troubles” are still with us and are relevant to every discussion of Russia’s actions.