Ex-defence minister Liam Fox: We must arm the Ukrainians as the credibility of the entire Nato alliance is at stake

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Ridgerunner said:
Everyone should ignore it. If somebody cites something as authoritative, he should do so in a way that others should be able to examine it. When someone writes something and cites a source in a foreign language only, few can do that.
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The facts are there. I personally can extract them and understand them, although it is not a ‘pleasant’ read.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Russia is now the ISIS of Europe, and the Obama of the Middle East is the same Obama in Europe.
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That remark is so over the top, I don’t even know where to begin. How you manage to get away with statements like that on CAF is beyond me.

If the right-wing posters here are so hot for WW 3, feel free to enlist. Otherwise, Catholics here need to pray for peace, which is what our Pope has suggested.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
That remark is so over the top, I don’t even know where to begin. How you manage to get away with statements like that on CAF is beyond me.

If the right-wing posters here are so hot for WW 3, feel free to enlist. Otherwise, Catholics here need to pray for peace, which is what our Pope has suggested.
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👍
 
pepipop said:
The facts are there. I personally can extract them and understand them, although it is not a ‘pleasant’ read.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
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No, the opinion is there. No facts. It’s all conclusions.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
That remark is so over the top, I don’t even know where to begin. How you manage to get away with statements like that on CAF is beyond me.

If the right-wing posters here are so hot for WW 3, feel free to enlist. Otherwise, Catholics here need to pray for peace, which is what our Pope has suggested.
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Do you really think someone’s opinion on CAF is going to start WWIII?

Probably I “get away with it” on CAF in comparing Russia’s aggressions to that of ISIS, because the parallel is there.

ISIS is conquering territory in the Middle East and North Africa by force of arms. Russia is doing the same thing in eastern Europe. ISIS is killing Christians in the Middle East and North Africa. Russia is doing the same thing in Ukraine. ISIS’ aggressions have been condemned by Catholic prelates in the region. The same is true of Russia’s.

Until a better mimic of ISIS comes along in Europe, Russia is the next thing to it.
 
Apologies, it was not my intention to misrepresent your opinions. I’ve had that done to me in the past so I appreciate how annoying it can be. Genuinely sorry. 🙂

However you did go on a rant about how terrible Britain has acted in the past, how third rate and irrelevant it is etc. I don’t have a clue why this (notably fervent) denunciation of the UK has anything to do with Mr Liam Fox’s expressed opinion about Russian actions vis-a-vis Ukraine and his belief that NATO countries should send lethal aid.

I found it a tad overblown and to me it seemed like you were evading directly answering his points by engaging in a pointless assault on Britain and its record of misdeeds. Surely you can see why I found this, well, irritating to be frank?

Note that I did not insinuate that you hold animosity towards the people of the UK but I do get the impression that there is a strong hostility towards the British state. Am I wrong? If so then sorry, it was the impression I received.

Btw I dislike the present Russian state (which I regard as an authoritarian kleptocracy) so I wouldn’t have a problem if you did strongly dislike the UK government. There’s nothing immoral about holding a negative opinion of a specific state or government, I simply failed to see why a litany of vehement grievances concerning the UK government had any real relevance to the topic. I saw it as evasion, personally, which is actually what irritated me. There are things I dislike about my own government’s conduct in the past as well, so I can assure you it is not this which irked me.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
That remark is so over the top, I don’t even know where to begin. How you manage to get away with statements like that on CAF is beyond me.

If the right-wing posters here are so hot for WW 3, feel free to enlist. Otherwise, Catholics here need to pray for peace, which is what our Pope has suggested.
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I think it is an unfair insinuation to assume that one knows the political beliefs of other posters (ie right wing) and to claim that they are warmongers, simply because they are stating the widely shared belief that Russia is acting aggressively, illegally and outrageously towards a sovereign country.

It is Russian separatists that have broken a Western inspired attempt to restore peace at Minsk, yet we are the warmongers for saying this?

I’m sorry but that is completely misplaced in my humble opinion.
 
Russia is now the ISIS of Europe, and the Obama of the Middle East is the same Obama in Europe.

Wait I thought Russia was the Nazi Germany? Cant we at least keep the enemy/devil propaganda straight before the West spreads more "deomcracy.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Do you really think someone’s opinion on CAF is going to start WWIII?

Probably I “get away with it” on CAF in comparing Russia’s aggressions to that of ISIS, because the parallel is there.

ISIS is conquering territory in the Middle East and North Africa by force of arms. Russia is doing the same thing in eastern Europe. ISIS is killing Christians in the Middle East and North Africa. Russia is doing the same thing in Ukraine. ISIS’ aggressions have been condemned by Catholic prelates in the region. The same is true of Russia’s.

Until a better mimic of ISIS comes along in Europe, Russia is the next thing to it.
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Try the US or west but you probably already knew that…

The west conquered and spread “democracy” (installed pro western regimes) in the ME and Africa by force. The west has killed Christians and aided people who killed christians plenty of times including Serbia and the ME (also like your suggestion that the separatists aren’t christian). Just like the idea of an Irish state in NI was called uncatholic by establishment catholics in England which should be looked at as critically as the completely western based Eastern Catholics who have a bias.
 
boar2roar said:
Then read up on it. Look up the “massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia”. Doesn’t get much western press but thats no excuse.
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You made an outlandish and thoroughly unsubstabtiated claim that genocide had been committed. Genocide let me remind you has a definite legal and moral definition. No recognised international organisation operating in Ukraine has claimed that either side is guilty of genocide. Apparently you are the first person to claim this, so please forgive us for having scepticism.

War crimes claims are legitimate but genocide? ???
 
Vouthon said:
However you did go on a rant about how terrible Britain has acted in the past,.
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I am mostly of Irish ancestry, and I grew up hearing the stories of what it was like during the “troubles” long ago.

But one of the most interesting things I ever heard from anyone was from a priest from Ireland. He asserted that, for a long time (into our own time) if the Brits weren’t in northern Ireland, the protestant Ulstermen could take over the whole of Ireland in short order. He, himself, was very much for Irish independence and the rights of Catholics in northern Ireland.

His basis for saying this was that the Irish Republic has essentially no defense force, but Northern Ireland has thousands of former very well trained Brit military, including high ranking officers who know how to command. Northern Ireland contributes far more than its proportionate numbers to the Brit military. One remembers that Bernard Law Montgomery was from northern Ireland, and one is not particularly inclined to disbelieve the priest. He was absolutely convinced that British military presence in northern Ireland was the only thing that prevented such an outcome back a few decades ago when the conflict was at its worst.

So, in talking about British conduct during the Famine or during the conflicts of just a few decades past, I don’t think there is an apt comparison between the two.
 
Vouthon said:
You made an outlandish and thoroughly unsubstabtiated claim that genocide had been committed. Genocide let me remind you has a definite legal and moral definition. No recognised international organisation operating in Ukraine has claimed that either side is guilty of genocide. Apparently you are the first person to claim this, so please forgive us for having scepticism.

War crimes claims are legitimate but genocide? ???
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Its not outlandish why don’t you look it up? It didn’t happen now but itv soviet wrongs are brought up western Ukrainians cleansed the Lviv areas of all Poles in genocidal killings.
 
I agree entirely, if you put it like that. But again, why is this relevant?
 
boar2roar said:
Its not outlandish why don’t you look it up? It didn’t happen now but itv soviet wrongs are brought up western Ukrainians cleansed the Lviv areas of all Poles in genocidal killings.
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Ok, the way you wrote the initial sentence made it appear that you were arguing that genocide had been committed in this present Ukranian conflict. Which would obviously have given us pause since praise God it hasn’t gone that far, despite the terrible human cost.
 
While the Great Famine was initially caused by potato blight affecting other parts of Europe as well (and therefore was not a man made famine), I agree with you that it’s manifestation in Ireland had disproportionate consequences for which the British government under Russell should be held accountable. Certainly a dedication to laissez faire economics and casual ethnic prejudices are among the reasons for the British government’s inadequate response, although not the only ones. The Famine left a permanent wound in the Irish collective memory that, even if it should not be seen as genocide (there is debate in historiography but I don’t think there was murderous intent, more a case of criminal negligence) its impact on the culture of Ireland occupies a similar place as say, the Armenian Genocide in the Armenian collective memory. And rightly so.

Again though, we are off topic.
 
Likely not, although many are familiar with the capital Kiev. Anyone who has knowledge of the fall of the Soviet Union would remember, I am sure, George Bush Srs 1991 ‘chicken kiev speech’ there. In other words, it was never a completely obscure country.

On public opinion, I think that most people in the West in general see Putin as a threat now to European security and therefore naturally sympathise with Kiev, which is seen as the victim of foreign aggression and annexation by a bullying neighbour. Opinion polls indicate quite clearly that Russia is now viewed overwhelmingly negatively, whereas prior to the crisis Putin’s antics may have been viewed as mildly amusing (ie his bare chest and bear baiting) and Russian oligarchs such as Roman Abramovitch the owner of Chelsea football club were the predominant influence on public opinion. I can assure you that few are laughing now. Putin is no longer a farcical but distant leader. He is seen as a very real threat.
 
Vouthon said:
Likely not, although many are familiar with the capital Kiev. Anyone who has knowledge of the fall of the Soviet Union would remember, I am sure, George Bush Srs 1991 ‘chicken kiev speech’ there. In other words, it was never a completely obscure country.

On public opinion, I think that most people in the West in general see Putin as a threat now to European security and therefore naturally sympathise with Kiev, which is seen as the victim of foreign aggression and annexation by a bullying neighbour. Opinion polls indicate quite clearly that Russia is now viewed overwhelmingly negatively, whereas prior to the crisis Putin’s antics may have been viewed as mildly amusing (ie his bare chest and bear baiting) and Russian oligarchs such as Roman Abramovitch the owner of Chelsea football club were the predominant influence on public opinion. I can assure you that few are laughing now. Putin is no longer a farcical but distant leader. He is seen as a very real threat.
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Well of course some do, i.e. the MSM gullible public, as there’s been nothing else but anti-Russian news, in the media, for the past 12 months. Fortunately, the MSM do not control the way they used to, in the days before the internet, so there is a lot less see Russia as a threat than there could have been. This is clearly evidenced in the comments sections of the various anti-Russia/Putin articles printed. Most of the public now rate such anti-Russian stories as similar to “the weapons of mass destruction”, or “Iraqi soldiers throw babies from incubators” type news.:rolleyes:
 
pepipop said:
Well of course some do, i.e. the MSM gullible public, as there’s been nothing else but anti-Russian news, in the media, for the past 12 months. Fortunately, the MSM do not control the way they used to, in the days before the internet, so there is a lot less see Russia as a threat than there could have been. **This is clearly evidenced in the comments sections of the various anti-Russia/Putin articles printed. **Most of the public now rate such anti-Russian stories as similar to “the weapons of mass destruction”, or “Iraqi soldiers throw babies from incubators” type news.:rolleyes:
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Oh Lordie :rolleyes:

Actually it is well-known that the comments sections of Western websites are littered with pro-Putin spam from Russian bots and paid internet-watchers hoping to influence public opinion:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_II#Ideology_and_propaganda
Russia has been accused of funding web brigades that make pro-Russian comments on social networks and the comments sections of media websites.[120][121] Both Russia and NATO were said in 2014 to be engaged in a propaganda war.[122]
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I think you underestimate the importance of “cyber warfare” in the 21st century.

I really hope it is not this tactic of the Kremlin’s information war that is lulling you into a false sense of security vis-a-vis public opinion. The official opinion polls paint a very different image and I can assure you Pepi that your interpretation is the minority view. Heseltine, before delivering a somewhat mild approach to Russia on QuestionTime, first admitted: “I hold an unconventional view of Russia.…”

The conventional view is not a positive view following recent events, which have caused even traditionally friendly nations to now view Russia with terror.
 
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