Ex-defence minister Liam Fox: We must arm the Ukrainians as the credibility of the entire Nato alliance is at stake

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t like Putin, and I really am not very wild about the Russians either, however Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

We simply cannot jump back into another cold war chess game against Russia, unless we are absolutely forced to, and at this point we are not. I don’t see where inaction by NATO undermines them as a deterrent.

American and for that matter English interests are not at stake, as far as I can tell, maybe I am wrong. What I do know is that we have a terrible homeless problem,

“On a single night in January 2013, 610,042 people were experiencing homelessness in the US.”
endhomelessness.org/library/entry/the-state-of-homelessness-2014

The UK also has a serious homeless problem. Everyone has heard the stats for the US DOD budget figures are. If that is not a deterrence, I don’t know what is. I am sick to death of the US spending our tax dollars on proxy wars when so many homeless families and mentally ill people sleep in the streets or live in filth and poverty. We need jobs not more wars that in the long run accomplishes little other than killing people. Iraq was enough.

The price of the Iraq and Afghan wars cost in excess of 4 trillion dollars to the US taxpayers.
washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/study-iraq-afghan-war-costs-to-top-4-trillion/2013/03/28/b82a5dce-97ed-11e2-814b-063623d80a60_story.html

Enough is enough.

I don’t know how things are in Georgia, but I do know a very significant part, if not the largest part, of homelessness is among the very seriously mentally ill. Due in part to the courts which have taken a very wide view of “least restrictive environment”, states like mine have closed down the facilities that once housed people who need constant monitoring to make sure they eat, sleep, and take their medications.

As a result, lots of them roam the streets. Now and then they get so crazy the police gather them in and bring them to psych centers. Those folks feed them, see to their illnesses, get their meds stabilized and then what…??? There’s nothing they can do but put them back out on the street and wait until they come in again next month or next week or whatever. Sometimes those sick people have thousands of dollars in SSD or other benefits available to them, but they stick the checks in a paper bag or throw them away or get robbed of them and don’t have money to eat or get shelter.

It’s saddening. Me, I primarily blame the courts and this obsession they have with “least restrictive environment”. It’s respect for human freedom gone nuts.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I don’t know how things are in Georgia, but I do know a very significant part, if not the largest part, of homelessness is among the very seriously mentally ill. Due in part to the courts which have taken a very wide view of “least restrictive environment”, states like mine have closed down the facilities that once housed people who need constant monitoring to make sure they eat, sleep, and take their medications.

As a result, lots of them roam the streets. Now and then they get so crazy the police gather them in and bring them to psych centers. Those folks feed them, see to their illnesses, get their meds stabilized and then what…??? There’s nothing they can do but put them back out on the street and wait until they come in again next month or next week or whatever. Sometimes those sick people have thousands of dollars in SSD or other benefits available to them, but they stick the checks in a paper bag or throw them away or get robbed of them and don’t have money to eat or get shelter.

It’s saddening. Me, I primarily blame the courts and this obsession they have with “least restrictive environment”. It’s respect for human freedom gone nuts.

Yes, a vast majority of our homeless have alcohol, drug and mental health issues. This is well-documented.

 

[esieffe]

Yes, a vast majority of our homeless have alcohol, drug and mental health issues. This is well-documented.

I agree with both of you. It is quite a conundrum. The only point I was trying to make is that there are internal needs in almost every domestic category that you can conceive of, veterans, unemployment, infrastructure, disabilities, and so on, that would serve OUR country better including trimming debt, than another proxy war, or American world Police action.

I have no love for the left or right in this country, but staying out of conflicts that don’t directly threaten our national security seems to be a good idea right now. For the FIRST time, ME countries are actually taking an active role, spending their own money by fighting ISIS. In the past, we have had to foot the whole bill, in cash and in lives.

Thanks

 

[Ridgerunner]

For the FIRST time, ME countries are actually taking an active role, spending their own money by fighting ISIS. In the past, we have had to foot the whole bill, in cash and in lives.

Thanks

And will again. Wait and see.

 

[JW55]

I agree with both of you. It is quite a conundrum. The only point I was trying to make is that there are internal needs in almost every domestic category that you can conceive of, veterans, unemployment, infrastructure, disabilities, and so on, that would serve OUR country better including trimming debt, than another proxy war, or American world Police action.

I have no love for the left or right in this country, but staying out of conflicts that don’t directly threaten our national security seems to be a good idea right now. For the FIRST time, ME countries are actually taking an active role, spending their own money by fighting ISIS. In the past, we have had to foot the whole bill, in cash and in lives.

Thanks

This is my primary position, as well. We should not be policeman to the world or fund these military actions on foreign soil.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I have no love for the left or right in this country, but staying out of conflicts that don’t directly threaten our national security seems to be a good idea right now. For the FIRST time, ME countries are actually taking an active role, spending their own money by fighting ISIS. In the past, we have had to foot the whole bill, in cash and in lives.

Thanks

Depends on how you define national security. I think we have been laying low and focusing exclusively on domestic issues ever since Obama was elected. The world is ON FIRE. The US doesn’t have a choice but to engage to protect its interests. I certainly agree with should not do anything alone, no argument there. But ISIS and the intensifying crisis in the Ukraine ARE our problems. Sorry. And Iran.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This is my primary position, as well. We should not be policeman to the world or fund these military actions on foreign soil.

Better there than here.

The only non-US local powers who are able to take out ISIS are Iran and Turkey. Eventually, one or the other probably will or ISIS will eventually become a nuclear power itself and threaten at least Iran and also this country. Which of the two would you prefer to take over Iraq and northern Syria? Alternatively, would you rather that ISIS develop into a Caliphate capable of buying nuclear material from Pakistan or North Korea?

 

[JW55]

Better there than here.

The only non-US local powers who are able to take out ISIS are Iran and Turkey. Eventually, one or the other probably will or ISIS will eventually become a nuclear power itself and threaten at least Iran and also this country. Which of the two would you prefer to take over Iraq and northern Syria? Alternatively, would you rather that ISIS develop into a Caliphate capable of buying nuclear material from Pakistan or North Korea?

I am not for either. Nor was I for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Nor was I for the U.S. arming “moderate” “freedom fighters” in Syria and Iraq, who managed in large numbers to get trained, take their weapons and defect to ISIS or what ever acronym they go by these days. Western meddling in the affairs of the Middle East helped to a very large degree create these groups (I confidently assume you don’t agree). As I have stated before after 10 yrs of war in Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, the demise of several thousand American soldiers and other support troops, countless billions of American dollars, these pre-emptive strikes have left the state of these countries worse than they were before. We helped create the mess. They hate us there not so much for who we are, but the fact we are there. You can argue that as much as you want and like me, yours is just an opinion. If we weren’t there, why would they come here? What point would there be to bring America into the war? They would much rather fight us there anyway on their turf. If we mind our own business, trade with the Middle East, Ukraine, Russia whomever and stay out of their internal affairs, we will have far less problems. Regardless of any of the above, the present situation is out of control. Turkey and Iran both have more than sufficient militaries to do what ever they desire to ISIS, and no doubt be much more brutal about it than we would. And it is on their doorstep, not ours. So it is a bigger threat to them.

Your question of how would I feel about Iran taking over the area? Why are the Saudis better than the Iranians? Or any other country in the Middle East. They all have opposing, antagonizing believes and views to ours. So you want to go over there and bomb them, send in more troops, more American deaths? Fight 10 more years, then what? Occupy them with a military presence and they will suddenly desire to accept a Western view of democracy and have appreciation festivals for us in the village square? It doesn’t end, it just makes it worse. Pre-emptive strikes and fight them there?

A major threat to us in this country on a large scale? You think they are capable of waging a war in America against Americans on American soil? Where is their air force, their navy . How are they going to land mass ground troops here? If they come here? Attack full force, they are on our turf.

Ask the Christians in the Middle East (the ones who weren’t beheaded, or run out of the homes their ancestors lived in since the time of Christ), how they are fairing these days. They are much worse off. Ask the folks of Kosovo how things are going there 20+ yrs after the bombings and American efforts are going for the Christians there, for the persecution of Serbs, 40%+ unemployment, their country a stop-over point for drug smuggling.

How many fronts do we have to fight on? Ukraine? Libya? Kosovo? Lebanon? Where next? 700-900 bases or military presences around the world isn’t enough already? Let put in some more military bases? How many? At what cost? Where is the money come to support this? Empires crumble if they are spread too far. History tells us this story time and time again. How many Americans and Europeans have to come home in a box?

Ridgerunner, I am confident you are a good person, intelligent, and strongly believe the position you are taking. I can respect that. However, I also think you are wrong on this issue. I pray that none of these situations mentioned above come to pass.

 

[Tomdstone]

Ask the Christians in the Middle East (the ones who weren’t beheaded, or run out of the homes their ancestors lived in since the time of Christ), how they are fairing these days. They are much worse off. Ask the folks of Kosovo how things are going there 20+ yrs after the bombings and American efforts are going for the Christians there, for the persecution of Serbs, 40%+ unemployment, their country a stop-over point for drug smuggling.

Good point. American bombings and invasions have made things a whole lot worse for Christians in both Iraq and Kosovo. And support for the FSA has led to destabilization in Syria and Libya where Christians are being kidnapped and beheaded.

 

[Darryl1958]

Serbians were ethnically cleansing Kosovo.

 

[Path_Finder]

Good point. American bombings and invasions have made things a whole lot worse for Christians in both Iraq and Kosovo. And support for the FSA has led to destabilization in Syria and Libya where Christians are being kidnapped and beheaded.

No, this is not so, Saddam was committing genocide.

The problem here is America leaving.

Also, the problem has been Assad and whomever has been backing him. He likewise is accused of genocide.

 

[Path_Finder]

Serbians were ethnically cleansing Kosovo.

Probably so.

Definitely, signs pointed to this going on in Bosnia.

 

[Darryl1958]

No, this is not so, Saddam was committing genocide.

The problem here is America leaving.

Also, the problem has been Assad and whomever has been backing him. He likewise is accused of genocide.

6 years after the reset has been pushed, we can note that the ME is not a better place on account of that. ISIS, Boko Haram, Syria in flames, Iraq being carved up by Shia and Sunni Islamists, America has experimented at being as tiny and unobtrusive as possible. What was once el quada has morphed into something a lot more evil.

There are still plenty of Americans that blame all the world’s evil on America. If they remain in the majority, it is hard not seeing this kind of evil growing exponentially.

It seems somehow ungrateful that so many young Americans especially, who have wanted for nothing their whole lives, who have the best food, the best education, the best technology, and unparalleled connectivity at their fingertips, can only see that the system that has allowed for this cornucopia that we have been all born into, as the root of all evil.

Shakespeare says it best when he says that hell hath no fury like that of an ungrateful child.

 

[pepipop]

I am not for either. Nor was I for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Nor was I for the U.S. arming “moderate” “freedom fighters” in Syria and Iraq, who managed in large numbers to get trained, take their weapons and defect to ISIS or what ever acronym they go by these days. Western meddling in the affairs of the Middle East helped to a very large degree create these groups (I confidently assume you don’t agree). As I have stated before after 10 yrs of war in Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, the demise of several thousand American soldiers and other support troops, countless billions of American dollars, these pre-emptive strikes have left the state of these countries worse than they were before. We helped create the mess. They hate us there not so much for who we are, but the fact we are there. You can argue that as much as you want and like me, yours is just an opinion. If we weren’t there, why would they come here? What point would there be to bring America into the war? They would much rather fight us there anyway on their turf. If we mind our own business, trade with the Middle East, Ukraine, Russia whomever and stay out of their internal affairs, we will have far less problems. Regardless of any of the above, the present situation is out of control. Turkey and Iran both have more than sufficient militaries to do what ever they desire to ISIS, and no doubt be much more brutal about it than we would. And it is on their doorstep, not ours. So it is a bigger threat to them.

Your question of how would I feel about Iran taking over the area? Why are the Saudis better than the Iranians? Or any other country in the Middle East. They all have opposing, antagonizing believes and views to ours. So you want to go over there and bomb them, send in more troops, more American deaths? Fight 10 more years, then what? Occupy them with a military presence and they will suddenly desire to accept a Western view of democracy and have appreciation festivals for us in the village square? It doesn’t end, it just makes it worse. Pre-emptive strikes and fight them there?

A major threat to us in this country on a large scale? You think they are capable of waging a war in America against Americans on American soil? Where is their air force, their navy . How are they going to land mass ground troops here? If they come here? Attack full force, they are on our turf.

Ask the Christians in the Middle East (the ones who weren’t beheaded, or run out of the homes their ancestors lived in since the time of Christ), how they are fairing these days. They are much worse off. Ask the folks of Kosovo how things are going there 20+ yrs after the bombings and American efforts are going for the Christians there, for the persecution of Serbs, 40%+ unemployment, their country a stop-over point for drug smuggling.

How many fronts do we have to fight on? Ukraine? Libya? Kosovo? Lebanon? Where next? 700-900 bases or military presences around the world isn’t enough already? Let put in some more military bases? How many? At what cost? Where is the money come to support this? Empires crumble if they are spread too far. History tells us this story time and time again. How many Americans and Europeans have to come home in a box?

Ridgerunner, I am confident you are a good person, intelligent, and strongly believe the position you are taking. I can respect that. However, I also think you are wrong on this issue. I pray that none of these situations mentioned above come to pass.

 

[Tomdstone]

No, this is not so, Saddam was committing genocide.

The number of Iraqis killed during the Saddam Hussein regime is estimated to be about 250,000. The number of people killed as a result of the US invasion of Iraq is estimated to be about 900,000. Of course the figures vary depending on who is giving the estimation. But was it OK for the US to invade and torture people in Abu Ghraib?

 

[Tomdstone]

There are still plenty of Americans that blame all the world’s evil on America.

Can you give us the name of one American who blames all of the world’s evil on America?

 

[JW55]

Serbians were ethnically cleansing Kosovo.

Both were in error here. The present state of the country is lop-sided against the native Serbian populations. The major point was our American intervention did not rectify things as evidenced by the State of that Country at this time.

 

[JW55]

No, this is not so, Saddam was committing genocide.

The problem here is America leaving.

Also, the problem has been Assad and whomever has been backing him. He likewise is accused of genocide.

Things are not better now. Americans can’t stay there forever.

 

[JW55]

No, this is not so, Saddam was committing genocide.

The problem here is America leaving.

Also, the problem has been Assad and whomever has been backing him. He likewise is accused of genocide.

Sadaam and Assad committing genocide? Wow, it is good that Christians in both countries are not victims of genocide at the hands of ISIS today, right? Wrong. Although under Assad and Saddam who were ruthless dictators, Christians in both countries had during these guys reigns, some measure of freedom of religious worship. Now they have no rights to their lives, there homeland or their religious faith.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am not for either. Nor was I for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Nor was I for the U.S. arming “moderate” “freedom fighters” in Syria and Iraq, who managed in large numbers to get trained, take their weapons and defect to ISIS or what ever acronym they go by these days. Western meddling in the affairs of the Middle East helped to a very large degree create these groups (I confidently assume you don’t agree). As I have stated before after 10 yrs of war in Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, the demise of several thousand American soldiers and other support troops, countless billions of American dollars, these pre-emptive strikes have left the state of these countries worse than they were before. We helped create the mess. They hate us there not so much for who we are, but the fact we are there. You can argue that as much as you want and like me, yours is just an opinion. If we weren’t there, why would they come here? What point would there be to bring America into the war? They would much rather fight us there anyway on their turf. If we mind our own business, trade with the Middle East, Ukraine, Russia whomever and stay out of their internal affairs, we will have far less problems. Regardless of any of the above, the present situation is out of control. Turkey and Iran both have more than sufficient militaries to do what ever they desire to ISIS, and no doubt be much more brutal about it than we would. And it is on their doorstep, not ours. So it is a bigger threat to them.

Your question of how would I feel about Iran taking over the area? Why are the Saudis better than the Iranians? Or any other country in the Middle East. They all have opposing, antagonizing believes and views to ours. So you want to go over there and bomb them, send in more troops, more American deaths? Fight 10 more years, then what? Occupy them with a military presence and they will suddenly desire to accept a Western view of democracy and have appreciation festivals for us in the village square? It doesn’t end, it just makes it worse. Pre-emptive strikes and fight them there?

A major threat to us in this country on a large scale? You think they are capable of waging a war in America against Americans on American soil? Where is their air force, their navy . How are they going to land mass ground troops here? If they come here? Attack full force, they are on our turf.

Ask the Christians in the Middle East (the ones who weren’t beheaded, or run out of the homes their ancestors lived in since the time of Christ), how they are fairing these days. They are much worse off. Ask the folks of Kosovo how things are going there 20+ yrs after the bombings and American efforts are going for the Christians there, for the persecution of Serbs, 40%+ unemployment, their country a stop-over point for drug smuggling.

How many fronts do we have to fight on? Ukraine? Libya? Kosovo? Lebanon? Where next? 700-900 bases or military presences around the world isn’t enough already? Let put in some more military bases? How many? At what cost? Where is the money come to support this? Empires crumble if they are spread too far. History tells us this story time and time again. How many Americans and Europeans have to come home in a box?

Ridgerunner, I am confident you are a good person, intelligent, and strongly believe the position you are taking. I can respect that. However, I also think you are wrong on this issue. I pray that none of these situations mentioned above come to pass.

Thank you for the compliment, but you raised so many issues, most of which I did not mention, that there is not sufficient room to respond to very much of it. I do understand, though, that you have a particular view of U.S. participation in world affairs; more or less that it should be none.

You are right in believing I do not share that view. I do think, however, that distinctions need to be made; something I do not believe you share. I never supported the U.S. action in Kosovo. I never supported ongoing operations in Afghanistan. I did, however, support remaining in force in Iraq, and precisely because the Sunni tribal leaders, the Kurds and the Arab Shia all begged us to do it. Why? Because they all knew the future would be like it is now if we did not, and they knew they needed more time. Even Al Quaeda admitted it was finished in Iraq. We stayed where we shouldn’t have stayed and left where we shouldn’t have left.