Ex-Gay Organizations or groups

[Kevin_Walker]

lacoloratura:

Although I can’t quote them myself, I have HEARD many studies quoted in various media that indicate there is a pattern to the development of homosexual tendencies. A couple of factors I’ve heard mentioned regarding male homosexuality are domineering mothers and emotionally unavailable fathers, the combination of which leads the young man to seek love and acceptance from other men. But I’m not an expert. You might try looking for information on this topic by Fr. Benedict Groschel (sp?), who in addition to being a priest is also a psychologist.

Yes, the causes of homosexuality are a nurture and not a nature issue. I believe Sigmund Freud had the best explanation for its cause (but he didn’t provide a cure, alas): three conditions must be present to increase the liklihood of homosexuality occuring in the developmental stages of the child (birth to 7 years of age) - 1. The individual is physically weak or underdeveloped in some way; 2. A traumatic upbringing as an absentee parent or a domineering parent; 3. how the child handles the “primal scene” where Freud contends the Oedipal complex can occur.

I have read several variations on this theme from different developmental psychologists and psychiatrists, but it doesn’t have to do with genetics or a ‘preference’,; homosexuality basically results from a dysfunctional and emotional traumatizing upbringing.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

goofyjim:

Just glancing through this thread and finding the same attacks from both sides refusing to love the other. I do not condone the lifestyle but if on has the temptation or thoughts it need not be classified as a mental disorder or illness. It does not decrease emotional stability or clarity of thought. In fact those who struggle and get criticized by both for not giving in in either direction, meaning non-active homosexually attracted people, have survived enough abuse from the whole world and should be highly praised for having made it. The same could be said for anyone who remains chaste or abstinent regardless of what temptations they may deal with. Let’s stop the hatred from both ends please. It will not bring about the kingdom.

The word HATRED is a little too strong and a gross misinterpretation. I have never advocated nor endorsed persecution of homosexuals, just the recognition of the danger they pose to society in certain occupations as has been very visibly demonstrated these past three years with the Crisis In The Church - a euphemism for homosexual infiltration of the Catholic Church under false pretenses and the concurrent rape of little boys placed in their trust.

We don’t need anymore of that happening anywhere in society, and since homosexuals are irrational and subversive by their very nature, then the simple step of zero homosexual tolerance in the Priesthood has become a necessity! That’s all.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

just the recognition of the danger they pose to society in certain occupations as has been very visibly demonstrated these past three years with the Crisis In The Church - a euphemism for homosexual infiltration of the Catholic Church under false pretenses and the concurrent rape of little boys placed in their trust.

Oh my. You think homosexuals are infiltrating the church to molest boys and bring it down?

I don’t suppose that it’s occured to you that perhaps the sexual repression in the church causes these men to act out in way that are unacceptable? No of course it hasn’t. It was the purest optimism for me to even dream you might consider an explanation not rooted in a huge over arching conspiracy theory.

We don’t need anymore of that happening anywhere in society, and since homosexuals are irrational and subversive by their very nature, then the simple step of zero homosexual tolerance in the Priesthood has become a necessity! That’s all.

Yeah it certainly sounds like you have no hatred for them. Those darn irrational subversives!

 

[lacoloratura]

Tlaloc:

I don’t suppose that it’s occured to you that perhaps the sexual repression in the church causes these men to act out in way that are unacceptable? No of course it hasn’t. It was the purest optimism for me to even dream you might consider an explanation not rooted in a huge over arching conspiracy theory.

Sadly, there is a problem with sexual repression among clergy - and it doesn’t have to be that way. Neither do we have to do away with priestly celibacy to alleviate it. The problem is that many, many otherwise good priests were never properly taught what celibacy really IS or is ABOUT. I have known many very holy priests who value their celibate lifestyle because they understand it. If such understanding was taught in more seminaries, I dare say that there would be far fewer problems. Just my perspective, but of course I have no first hand knowledge.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

Oh my. You think homosexuals are infiltrating the church to molest boys and bring it down?

I don’t suppose that it’s occured to you that perhaps the sexual repression in the church causes these men to act out in way that are unacceptable? No of course it hasn’t. It was the purest optimism for me to even dream you might consider an explanation not rooted in a huge over arching conspiracy theory.

Yeah it certainly sounds like you have no hatred for them. Those darn irrational subversives!

Blaming the victim is a fallacious argument used by those mentally incapable of accepting the responsibility for their own actions and is not an acceptable defense, even in a court of law. It didn’t work for either Geoghan or Shanley in their sex abuse defense trial in Boston, and this species of the post hoc fallacy doesn’t work here either.

Also, do you know what is a conspiracy theory? Its an unsubstantiated allegation, like homosexuality is genetic.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

lacoloratura:

Sadly, there is a problem with sexual repression among clergy - and it doesn’t have to be that way. Neither do we have to do away with priestly celibacy to alleviate it. The problem is that many, many otherwise good priests were never properly taught what celibacy really IS or is ABOUT. I have known many very holy priests who value their celibate lifestyle because they understand it. If such understanding was taught in more seminaries, I dare say that there would be far fewer problems. Just my perspective, but of course I have no first hand knowledge.

Please correct me if I’ve read your post wrong, but celibacy does not cause homosexuality. Aspiring priests were homosexual way before they applied to a seminary, lied about their homosexuality to gain entrance to an all male institution which discourages homosexual recruits, and kept up the lie for many years, essentially living in sin as an ordained Catholic Priest.

No adult heterosexual is going to become a homosexual due to a long spell of celibancy. Military veterans could vouch for this.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

Blaming the victim is a fallacious argument used by those mentally incapable of accepting the responsibility for their own actions and is not an acceptable defense, even in a court of law. It didn’t work for either Geoghan or Shanley in their sex abuse defense trial in Boston, and this species of the post hoc fallacy doesn’t work here either.

Right. I like how you claim the church is the victim rather than the abused boys. That’s a neat trick.

Also, do you know what is a conspiracy theory? Its an unsubstantiated allegation, like homosexuality is genetic.

Totally unsubstantiated, except of course for that scientific evidence. Other than that, though, yeah there’s nothing.

 

[Lisa_N]

Tlaloc:

Yes, and? Homosexuality is a part of our species nature. Remember the genetics?.

No, I have seen no evidence that homosexuality is genetic. The various studies you posted have been debunked and given the money the homosexual activists have, I am sure should some scientist claim he could provide evidence of a homosexual gene they would have plenty of funding

Tlaloc:

Your knowledge of biology is rather out of date. Many species, including primates, exhibit behaviors that are altruistic or in other words bad for themselves but good for the troop (deliniating good and bad in terms of reproduction). ?.

The species is to survive and what allows the SPECIES to survive is helpful behavior. While the more individuals that can procreate the more likely the species will continue on but you can even see what might be perceived as altruistic behavior in anthills and beehives–the objective being that there will be more little ants and little bees even if the sacrificial insect cannot procreate. Your dog don’t hunt.

Tlaloc:

No I’m happy using normal to mean natural. Afterall homosexuality occurs naturally so it tends to support my position. I can live with that…

No you have not presented a shred of evidence that homosexuality occurs ‘naturally’ in that it is part of our nature. There is no proof it is genetic. It is the antithesis of behavior that would allow a species to survive. It is non life giving. It is risky. It has some rather disgusting side effects. That doesn’t sound really natural to me. Obviously though since you are the world’s greatest expert on your own opinion, and you mistake your opinion for fact, YMMV

Lisa N

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

Right. I like how you claim the church is the victim rather than the abused boys. That’s a neat trick.

Totally unsubstantiated, except of course for that scientific evidence. Other than that, though, yeah there’s nothing.

The (Roman) Catholic homosexual priests like Geoghan and Shanley are claiming to be the victims of boys suggestive behavior.

As for your typical irrational misinterpretation of evidence, once again, for your perusal, please read:

narth.com/docs/correctionletter1.html

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

No adult heterosexual is going to become a homosexual due to a long spell of celibancy. Military veterans could vouch for this.

Just don’t ask the navy guys.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

Just don’t ask the navy guys.

Again, they were homosexual before they joined the Navy. As a Navy vet ('75-'79) we had so many ‘Gays’ on my ship we called it the love boat. But the heterosexuals remained heterosexual in the Navy despite long spells of celibacy (say, up to two years depending on where you were stationed, like Diego Garcia or Gitmo or the Arctic).

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa N:

No, I have seen no evidence that homosexuality is genetic. The various studies you posted have been debunked and given the money the homosexual activists have, I am sure should some scientist claim he could provide evidence of a homosexual gene they would have plenty of funding

They weren’t debunked. For one thing the few issues raised were all false. For another thing the position is accepted in the medical community as a whole. Or have they all been duped and just not been privy to the “thorough” debunking in this thread?

The species is to survive and what allows the SPECIES to survive is helpful behavior. While the more individuals that can procreate the more likely the species will continue on but you can even see what might be perceived as altruistic behavior in anthills and beehives–the objective being that there will be more little ants and little bees even if the sacrificial insect cannot procreate. Your dog don’t hunt.

Well he hunts a little, but only on the weekend and kind of as a reminder of the old days.

Seriously Lisa you need to study some biology because your views here are very misinformed. Having more individuals procreating is not always beneficial. Often it is with lower order animals like mice that have sever predation. Higher order animals like primates often can not afford to have as many children as is possible. They require a very large ecological footprint and so have to carefully manage their populations. Whereas mice rebound quickly from a bust (as in boom and bust populations) cycle humans are not so lucky.

No you have not presented a shred of evidence that homosexuality occurs ‘naturally’ in that it is part of our nature.
There is no proof it is genetic.

False. It has been presented, and furthermore it’s accepted by the scientific community. You can ignore it if you like but it’s still there waiting for you when you feel like educating yourself.

It is the antithesis of behavior that would allow a species to survive.

False under some circumstances having adult members of the tribe who cannot procreate can be a selective advantage for the group. Again spend some time learning biology, I didn’t make any of this up.

It is non life giving. It is risky. It has some rather disgusting side effects. That doesn’t sound really natural to me.

What it sounds like to you is irrelevent. It occurs among animals. It has a genetic component, it provides in some circumstances a selective advantage for the group.

Obviously though since you are the world’s greatest expert on your own opinion, and you mistake your opinion for fact, YMMV

Not my opinions Lisa. Biology isn’t a matter of my opinion. It’s a rigorous science, and remains so no matter how you ignore it.

 

[rayne89]

?

I don’t suppose that it’s occured to you that perhaps the sexual repression in the church causes these men to act out in way that are unacceptable? No of course it hasn’t. It was the purest optimism for me to even dream you might consider an explanation not rooted in a huge over arching conspiracy theory.

Boy you have bought every secular idea hook, line and sinker huh? The notion that abstaining from sex makes you become a pedifile is rediculous. What about all the fathers that molest their daughters? Or married protestant pastors that are charged with molestation, how about little league baseball coaches? I guess they’re all sexually repressed.

 

[goofyjim]

Homosexuals are not subversive and irrational by nature. This is quite an irrational statement and proves my earlier point. They are sinners but will characterize all sinners as subversive and irrational. Some may be but there is no correlative proof. You are free to judge actions. Please refrain from judging the heart and I will make every effort to do the same. I will stay with the sacraments because the good Lord continues to invite me even though some do not. There is room for improvement on everyone’s part on this topic, including mine.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

Oh my. You think homosexuals are infiltrating the church to molest boys and bring it down?

I don’t suppose that it’s occured to you that perhaps the sexual repression in the church causes these men to act out in way that are unacceptable? No of course it hasn’t. It was the purest optimism for me to even dream you might consider an explanation not rooted in a huge over arching conspiracy theory.

Yeah it certainly sounds like you have no hatred for them. Those darn irrational subversives!

Oh man was that wrong Celibacy does not cause a person to become a pedifile!:banghead: Are you telling me that if a man is not having sex he will seek out children or young people?Don’t you think it would be more truthful to say that the perpetrator believed his percieved sexual needs were more important than the victims right to be safe.Is it not true that pedifile go out of their way to take jobs or in this case vocations to be close to kids?

 

[Zorgnerf]

Kevin Walker:

Does anyone know the name of any ex-Gay organizations or groups?

It seems to me that the members of ex-Gay organizations have the strongest argument against the genetic causes of homosexuality, the efficacy of the power of prayer, and that homosexuality can be treated, cured, and removed from society.

If then homosexuality is treatable, then it should be put back in the Diagnostics and Staticians Manual (the D.S.M.) and be rightfully treated as a mental health disorder, and not a preference.

Here are a few:

Within the Catholic Church: couragerc.net/
Exodus: exodus.to
People Can Change: peoplecanchange.com/
PATH: pathinfo.org/

Homosexuality IS treatable, because sexuality is fluid. Alfred Kinsey himself wrote, "Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories… The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects, " and referring to his scale of sexuality he wrote, “An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, for each period in his life”
See kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html

Even the past president of the American Psychological Association agrees that individuals should have the right to choose to change, “If homosexuals choose to transform their sexuality into heterosexuality, that resolve and decision is theirs and theirs alone. . .” See narth.com/docs/perloff.html

 

[Zorgnerf]

Tlaloc:

Yes, and? Homosexuality is a part of our species nature. Remember the genetics?

Unconvinced would be more correct.

See queerbychoice.com/gaygenequotes.html and narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

Remember, genetics has nothing to do with behavior?

 

[Lisa_N]

Tlaloc:

They weren’t debunked. For one thing the few issues raised were all false. For another thing the position is accepted in the medical community as a whole. Or have they all been duped and just not been privy to the “thorough” debunking in this thread.

THe studies you posted on the twins were flawed. The sample was self selected and resulted from advertising in homosexual publications. The sample needs to be both large enough and random for the results to be significant. The studies that claimed a string of genes were more prevalent in homosexuals than heterosexuals were shown not to be statistically significant.

Again please post a definitive and verified study that has been published in a major journal, where results have been duplicated that provides strong evidence of a “gay gene.” Tlaloc I grew up with two PhD scientists as parents. I understand scientific research and whether or not it is significant.

Tlaloc:

Seriously Lisa you need to study some biology because your views here are very misinformed. Having more individuals procreating is not always beneficial. Often it is with lower order animals like mice that have sever predation. Higher order animals like primates often can not afford to have as many children as is possible. They require a very large ecological footprint and so have to carefully manage their populations. Whereas mice rebound quickly from a bust (as in boom and bust populations) cycle humans are not so lucky.

‘scuse me but what does this have to do with anythng? The survival of the species is the objective. Behavior that promotes survival of the species will be rewarded in the evolutionary cycle so to speak. Animals whose behavior is not condusive to reproduction are less likely to carry on the family name. But I really doubt if populations of mice have council meetings and determine whether or not to breed in a particular year. I actually grew up with mice in my parents’ lab. I do know their behavior patterns. OTOH I am not sure what that has to do with whether homosexuality is natural.

As to your attempt to be scientific ‘ecological footprint’ good grief. So you are saying that the gorillas decide to go gay one year because there aren’t enough bananas to support next year’s gorilla crop? PUH-LEASE

Tlaloc:

False. It has been presented, and furthermore it’s accepted by the scientific community. You can ignore it if you like but it’s still there waiting for you when you feel like educating yourself.

No it is not. Again please provide verified, replicated research in a well respected journal of genetics that confirms homoexuality is genetic in origin. And don’t bother with the fruit fly study where the genes were manipulated to create a bunch of “fruit” flies. That one was pretty amusing but didn’t really add to the discussion.

Tlaloc:

False under some circumstances having adult members of the tribe who cannot procreate can be a selective advantage for the group. Again spend some time learning biology, I didn’t make any of this up…

Huh? So that is your excuse for being homosexual? For the good of the tribe? Have you been watching Survivor reruns? How many tribal societies create a group of designated homosexuals?

Tlaloc:

What it sounds like to you is irrelevent. It occurs among animals. It has a genetic component, it provides in some circumstances a selective advantage for the group…

Homosexual pairings do not occur in animals. You might see transient homosexual behavior as a result of abnormal conditions or stress. Homosexual rapes of males in some species are a factor in dethroning a male in order TO GET THE FEMALE. You will not find normal animals gravitating to sexual relationships with other animals of the same sex if conditions are normal. Again please show me a study that demonstrates your premise.

Tlaloc:

Not my opinions Lisa. Biology isn’t a matter of my opinion. It’s a rigorous science, and remains so no matter how you ignore it.

I know. I grew up with discussions of RNA and DNA around our dining room table. I worked in my parents’ lab. I did statistical analysis for some of their papers. Again you cannot fool me Tlaloc. You are merely trying to justify your actions.

Lisa N

 

[ahimsaman72]

Kevin Walker:

We don’t need anymore of that happening anywhere in society, and since homosexuals are irrational and subversive by their very nature, then the simple step of zero homosexual tolerance in the Priesthood has become a necessity! That’s all.

Having no other better thread to look at and respond to, I found yours (lucky for me). Homosexuals are irrational and subversive by their very nature? Are you sure you want to go with that? How many irrational and subversive by nature homosexuals have you known?

This is a blanket statement that reeks of stereotype. I have a family friend who is a practicing homosexual. He is neither irrational or subversive by nature. He is both intelligent, rational and kind by nature. I don’t understand the hostility given to people who simply aren’t like you in any sense.

I hate blanket statements which leave no room for individuality and are in themselves subversive - like yours.

Peace…

 

[goofyjim]

My heart is continually torn following this thread. What difference does it all make? I have committed no actions to justify so I have something in common with one side of the argument. I have been plagued by temptations w/o giving in so I have something in common with the other. I do not call myself gay, while I may have mistakenly done so in the past. But I need not call myself ex-gay to satisfy anyone either. I am a sinner as we all are here. (At least, I assume there are no canonized saints posting to these forums.) Every sinner should be given the benefit of the doubt that he or she is striving for sainthood and the possibility exists. The only way the hope is gone is if hte unforgivable sin is committed. Everyone’s participation here is an indication that the Spirit is working through each of them which means noone here has done that. Let’s carry this discussion in this manner, please. That is my request. I will pray before the Blessed Sacrament tonight that his can either be done or the threads must cease. Yet I am not moderator of the forum so I am at someone else’s mercy. I do have the option to walk away from here but I have no need as that is not the best solution either.