Ex-Gay Organizations or groups

[Kevin_Walker]

ahimsaman72:

Having no other better thread to look at and respond to, I found yours (lucky for me). Homosexuals are irrational and subversive by their very nature? Are you sure you want to go with that? How many irrational and subversive by nature homosexuals have you known?

This is a blanket statement that reeks of stereotype. I have a family friend who is a practicing homosexual. He is neither irrational or subversive by nature. He is both intelligent, rational and kind by nature. I don’t understand the hostility given to people who simply aren’t like you in any sense.

I hate blanket statements which leave no room for individuality and are in themselves subversive - like yours.

Peace…

Hi,

Yes I want to go down ‘that’ road. Yes homosexuals are irrational and subversive by their very damaged psyche’s as homosexuals. Yes I worked with homosexuals in shipyards, boatyards, construction sites, in the U.S. Navy, on tugboats, fishing boats, universities, and in the theater; and yes homosexuals are irrational, self-destructive, profoundly moody, have a high alcoholic problem, and generally difficult to get along with. These are the psychologically accepted characteristics of homosexuality (and there are more anti-social aspects to their behavior) and are not a blanket stereotype! It is imperative to keep homosexuals away from occupations that require emotional stability and clarity of thought, like the priesthood (and many more professional occupations). Otherwise it is none of my business what a homosexual does with their daily life, as long as I’m not victimized by their dysfunction.

 

[goofyjim]

Goodbye, all. It has been fun in this discussion but I have not successfully found the answers I expected. I will be praying before the Blessed Sacrament as usual tonight and will keep all of you in my prayers. I have had the time this week to do this since I have been on vacation. But I shall now return to getting my answers from Christ and the friends I have here. I have learned to trust them, they know me, they are all devout Catholics, and that is all that’s necessary for now. When I feel the need to dig deeper into this present atmosphere I’ll pay a visit to Bayside, New York. (Hint as to what troubles I have been caused in life.) I will not read any more posts from this thread though. (Well, maybe-but I will see you all someday in heaven.)

 

[Tlaloc]

rayne89:

Boy you have bought every secular idea hook, line and sinker huh? The notion that abstaining from sex makes you become a pedifile is rediculous.

Sure, but the notion that being part of a group that denies normal healthy sexual experience encourages abnormal sexual responses is simply a matter of logic. Pedophilia is only one possible release for those pent up feelings.

 

[Tlaloc]

Zorgnerf:

Homosexuality IS treatable, because sexuality is fluid. Alfred Kinsey himself wrote, "Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories… The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects, " and referring to his scale of sexuality he wrote, “An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, for each period in his life”
See kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html

Heh. You completely misunderstand what he meant. he wasn’t saying it was treatable but that it changes over time.

Even the past president of the American Psychological Association agrees that individuals should have the right to choose to change, “If homosexuals choose to transform their sexuality into heterosexuality, that resolve and decision is theirs and theirs alone. . .” See narth.com/docs/perloff.html

They also say that “treatment” doesn’t work. So does the American Psychiatric Association. You left that part out. Again a person may change sexualities but on their own, not with “treatment.”

 

[Tlaloc]

Zorgnerf:

Remember, genetics has nothing to do with behavior?

No I don’t remember that because it’s patently false.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

Sure, but the notion that being part of a group that denies normal healthy sexual experience encourages abnormal sexual responses is simply a matter of logic. Pedophilia is only one possible release for those pent up feelings.

Homosexuality does not result from the release of pentup feelings; and it isn’t genetically determined, or does homosexuality develop from long periods of celibacy. And “the notion that being part of a group that denies normal healthy sexual experience encourages abnormal sexual responses” is simply a matter of illogic.

It appears that ex-Gays have worked out their homosexual mental health disorders, and are role models for existing homosexuals in society. Some alcoholics like their addiction and some homosexuals like their affliction - so the ex-alcoholics and the ex-Gays can work together for mutual erradication of these two disorders in society!

 

[Kevin_Walker]

goofyjim:

Ex-gay ministries are needed. but how would they exist if everyone has to be afraid to tell somone what they are experiencing. And once they do, the possibility is then always there that everyone will find out. Once again, why should there be fear. I have heard the comment that how can they allow ex-gay support groups. Wouldn’t that put them in the line of temptation. Yet AA and other groups have proven that the best one to help someone with a problem is someone who has a shared experience, not someone who hasn’t. Since not all Christians have experienced the loneliness associated with homosexaul temptations they are by nature not experts. They can endeavor to be compassionate but should not make general statements. Remember, my friend that I address my concerns to the gay community, also. My desire, as is yours, is to assist them to salvation. Can this be against Church teaching even if I am using a different method.

My only contention is that homosexuality be recognized for what it is, unfit to be allowed in the Catholic Priesthood or in other positions within Catholicism that requires emotional stability and clarity of thought.

The Catholic Church maintains a private psychiatric service in Silversprings Maryland known as the St. Lukes Institute for the treatment of, among other things, homosexuality.

Whoops, I’m getting kicked off this terminal.

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa N:

THe studies you posted on the twins were flawed.

No they weren’t you’ve just claimed such with no backing because you don’t like the results. Sorry that science took away your ball.

The sample was self selected and resulted from advertising in homosexual publications.

You need gay twins in order to study the genes of, wait for it…gay twins.
Where would you advertise to find gay twins? Modern Bride?

The sample needs to be both large enough and random for the results to be significant. The studies that claimed a string of genes were more prevalent in homosexuals than heterosexuals were shown not to be statistically significant.

Wishful thinking on your part again Lisa.

Again please post a definitive and verified study that has been published in a major journal, where results have been duplicated that provides strong evidence of a “gay gene.”

I’ve posted Four. Somehow I get the feeling you just don’t want to hear it.

Tlaloc I grew up with two PhD scientists as parents. I understand scientific research and whether or not it is significant.

Your position suggests otherwise. You’re claiming that you managed to debunk in moments studies accepted by the majority of professionals in the field. That should send warning bells ringing in the head of a child of two PhD scientists. Did they tell you about Occam’s Razor?

'scuse me but what does this have to do with anythng? The survival of the species is the objective. Behavior that promotes survival of the species will be rewarded in the evolutionary cycle so to speak. Animals whose behavior is not condusive to reproduction are less likely to carry on the family name.

Not true. Some behavior that is not conducive to the individual surviving is still advantageous for the group. Again this is pretty basic biology Lisa.

As to your attempt to be scientific ‘ecological footprint’ good grief. So you are saying that the gorillas decide to go gay one year because there aren’t enough bananas to support next year’s gorilla crop? PUH-LEASE

Sigh
No but some memebers of the group are born gay which means that the breeding adults also have some nonbreeding adults around to help them with survival tasks while they are burdened with child.

No it is not. Again please provide verified, replicated research in a well respected journal of genetics that confirms homoexuality is genetic in origin.

Done. Four times. Why should I post more when you’ll just claim it wasn’t correctly done no matter how many people who actually know the field agree with it?

Homosexual pairings do not occur in animals. You might see transient homosexual behavior as a result of abnormal conditions or stress. Homosexual rapes of males in some species are a factor in dethroning a male in order TO GET THE FEMALE. You will not find normal animals gravitating to sexual relationships with other animals of the same sex if conditions are normal. Again please show me a study that demonstrates your premise.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
National Geographic.

I know. I grew up with discussions of RNA and DNA around our dining room table. I worked in my parents’ lab. I did statistical analysis for some of their papers. Again you cannot fool me Tlaloc. You are merely trying to justify your actions.

Then you should stop pretending to be so incredibly short sighted about biology. If you know the topic why do you keep making such elementary blunders? You’ve gotten almost literally everything wrong.

 

[Tlaloc]

Brad:

Let’s stop calling charity and Church teaching “hatred”.

It’s not Christians that are attacking homosexuals. It is homosexuals that are attempting to change Christian teaching.

Bull. Christians are backing laws that discriminate against gays. There are no proposed amendments to keep catholics from marrying their partner now are there?

 

[Tlaloc]

Brad:

If someone is able to withstand alcohol for the remainder of their life, they are cured. If someone is able to not engage in homosexual acts for the remainder of their life, they are cured.

That’s not a cure thats just repressing something. In the case of alcoholism it may be needed to repress the urge to drink to excess and even to drink at all.

It has been shown in secular (homosexual journals, among others) and non-secular publications that homosexuals are up to 7 times more promiscuous than heterosexuals. The damage of this promiscuity is fairly obvious. The spread of AIDS and other STDs and shortened life span are one sufficient example.

As I said I saw data both ways but I’ll take your word for it. Promiscuity however isn’t a crime.

Who are “they”? What I gave is historical fact. What you are referencing is heavily influenced by secular academia which has been shown it is willing to use pragmatism (i.e. create and teach your own worldview) as “truth”.

No what you did was make up a history you wish had happened in place of what the people involved say happened.

 

[Tlaloc]

1) Greater suicide rate than average

Due to all the negative messages from society.

1. Greater promiscuity than average

Promiscuity isn’t a mental illness.

1. Greater depression than average

Due to all the negative messages from society.

1. Parades to promote and flaunt sexuality in public

I’ll just go and look up parades in the DSM. Wait nope not in there. What a shock! And I was about to commit the irish.

This is normal and doesn’t require any help?

Well according to mental health professionals? Yeah the problem is with society and their persecution of gays not with the gays themselves. Doesn’t it just suck when your chosen prejudice is no longer backed up by science?

 

[Lisa_N]

Tlaloc:

No they weren’t you’ve just claimed such with no backing because you don’t like the results. Sorry that science took away your ball.

You need gay twins in order to study the genes of, wait for it…gay twins.
Where would you advertise to find gay twins? Modern Bride?.

No because you should not be advertising for homosexual twins only but should take a large RANDOM sample of the particular group being studied (this case being identical twins) and find the incidence of the particular characteristic within the sample—you do not find a sample of people who declare they already have the characteristic you are looking for and then VOILA claim you have discovered this link. You claim to be a scientist. If that is truly the case then you understand how to take a sample.

Tlaloc:

Your position suggests otherwise. You’re claiming that you managed to debunk in moments studies accepted by the majority of professionals in the field. That should send warning bells ringing in the head of a child of two PhD scientists. Did they tell you about Occam’s Razor?.

I didn’t debunk the studies, other scientists did. However even the report on the original twin study pointed out the corrupt data in that the sample was self selected from the very subgroup they were trying to identify. Somehow I think if I went to a dog show I’d find dogs. This isn’t rocket science.

Tlaloc:

Not true. Some behavior that is not conducive to the individual surviving is still advantageous for the group. Again this is pretty basic biology Lisa.

Sigh
No but some memebers of the group are born gay which means that the breeding adults also have some nonbreeding adults around to help them with survival tasks while they are burdened with child. .

What? You mean the maiden aunt who doesn’t have her own kids but takes care of her nieces and nephews? What does THAT have to do with homosexuality. I assure you not everyone’s maiden aunt was a homosexual. Again you claim ‘born gay’ as if it were true. There is no evidence that anyone is BORN homosexual.

Tlaloc:

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
National Geographic.

Then you should stop pretending to be so incredibly short sighted about biology. If you know the topic why do you keep making such elementary blunders? You’ve gotten almost literally everything wrong.

You know Tlaloc you are getting a bit over the line with your rude comments.

The article said they have observed what APPEARS (their words) to be homosexual behavior among some animals. However even some of the people quoted state that they don’t know the actual reason for this behavior and that it might also be associated with improving chances of procreation. Now having grown up on a farm I am well aware of the behavior of cows when in heat. They will ‘mount’ each other. This is because they are in estrus and they are trying to attract a BULL, not a cow playmate. I’ve also seen homosexual rapes among birds but that is in keeping with a dominance behavior—something also suggested by the writers of the NG article.

Tlaloc you are fighting a losing battle. All of the articles and evidence you post are full of equivocations, and vague references to possible compromises of the information.

Lisa N

 

[Tlaloc]

Brad:

This just further confirms the strong evidence that homosexuality is correlated to environment - typically an overbearing/absent father for boys and an abusive situation for girls. Dr Nicolosi has done extensive research on this.

here’s what the APA says:

What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
****No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual

But what would they know, they’re just doctors.

Homosexual behavior is increasing now that it is taught that it is “normal” so teens use it as a type of drug to get high on the feeling.

That tingly feeling you are getting is a logical thought process trying to work its way out. Has homosexuality increased or are people just being more open about it now that its slightly more accepted? The second choice is the tingly one.

 

[Tlaloc]

Brad:

A domineering mother is usually the result of an absentee father in one way or another.

If you extend out the absentee/overbearing father concept with males, it makes perfect sense.

Dude, seriously don’t look to freud, the guy was a pioneer but way off base on most things.

Of course, God is not allowed in schools - so we just teach homosexuality as normal because it is “easier”.

And accurate. You do care about accuracy right?

Teaching that God loves you and you were made in His image = too controversial and boring.

And violates the first amendment. But whatever.

Putting condoms on cucumbers = less stress, and kinda fun

And helps control both unwanted pregnancy and STDs, but wait, isn’t that a good thing?

 

[goofyjim]

I knew I couldn’t leave yet. Where is there statistical evidence of these two statements?

(i apologize but this is where I have not received the answers.)

Homosexuals are subversive and irrational by nature.

All homosexuals just want Chruch teaching to change.

or a third

Homosexuals lack emotional stability and clarity.

One can be free of all mental disorders and still experience homosexual temptations. This should pu them on an even par with heterosexuals. But therein lies the problem. If it is true that we should refrain from labeling ourselves by our temptations then I am not homosexual. Of course I am not heterosexual either. I am a child of God.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

here’s what the APA says:

What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
****No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual

But what would they know, they’re just doctors.

That tingly feeling you are getting is a logical thought process trying to work its way out. Has homosexuality increased or are people just being more open about it now that its slightly more accepted? The second choice is the tingly one.

"However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality." APA

HUH?

In *Ignoratio elenchi, *so much for the genetic basis of homosexuality - Thanks Tlaloc (pagan Gods were not noted for their intelligence).

 

[Kevin_Walker]

goofyjim:

I knew I couldn’t leave yet. Where is there statistical evidence of these two statements?

(i apologize but this is where I have not received the answers.)

Homosexuals are subversive and irrational by nature.

All homosexuals just want Chruch teaching to change.

or a third

Homosexuals lack emotional stability and clarity.

One can be free of all mental disorders and still experience homosexual temptations. This should pu them on an even par with heterosexuals. But therein lies the problem. If it is true that we should refrain from labeling ourselves by our temptations then I am not homosexual. Of course I am not heterosexual either. I am a child of God.

Hello Goofyjim,

Glad you came back to these forums, shows you have strength and intellectual curiosity, a very good combination; coupled with your Catholicism, you should be able to negotiate any truth, no matter how harsh or ugly!

Guy, you sound very hurtin’, so I am not trying to slam you or anything. But as one Catholic adult to another, as I would say to anyother equal, homosexuality IS a mental health disorder.

Take a look at this list of homosexuals:

wwww.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/extras/removed_list.htm

and #6 down this list was ‘hanging’ around my street gang of teens for about three years!

I looked up Bayside, New York, but found nothing which would clarify your suggestion of why you go there? How is Bayside significant for you?

Take care!

 

[goofyjim]

Kevin,

The link didn’t seem to work. But anyway, Bayside, New York, was the location of a self proclaimed Catholic visionary who couldn’t bring herself to say anything nice except that the whole Church was going to hell for current circumstances. It affected me because even after I confided only in a priest about my struggles, they coincidentally struck my parish with their newsletters promoting AIDS as a punishment. What would you expect this to do to someone who was still a virgin and was afraid to admit some slight difficulty? Fortunately, it did not prevent me from my spiritual journey but this is why I get disturbed by subjective statements rather than just stating the facts. I do agree with much of the theories and have no problem with homosexuality being returned to the list of mental illnesses. But does every illness have to be 100% cured before we can let that person lead a normal life?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

goofyjim:

Kevin,

The link didn’t seem to work. But anyway, Bayside, New York, was the location of a self proclaimed Catholic visionary who couldn’t bring herself to say anything nice except that the whole Church was going to hell for current circumstances. It affected me because even after I confided only in a priest about my struggles, they coincidentally struck my parish with their newsletters promoting AIDS as a punishment. What would you expect this to do to someone who was still a virgin and was afraid to admit some slight difficulty? Fortunately, it did not prevent me from my spiritual journey but this is why I get disturbed by subjective statements rather than just stating the facts. I do agree with much of the theories and have no problem with homosexuality being returned to the list of mental illnesses. But does every illness have to be 100% cured before we can let that person lead a normal life?

A normal life is not what anybody is trying to prevent for a homosexual, but so-called ‘Gay’ marriage (which is incapable of self-reproduction) is not normal in any sense of the word.

Homosexuals should not be allowed in occupations which require sound and strong emotional stability and reasoning, those are two traits which the homosexual condition is really not noted!

The homosexual can do anything he or she wants to do within the realities of that condition. Same with schizophrenia or depressives or the autistic; you wouldn’t want someone with Alzheimers performing surgery on you? Or some neurotic directing a battle? The answer is no.

Homosexual Catholics are fine with me. In my particular Franciscan Church in Boston, I attend Mass with junkies, prostitutes, alcoholics, schizophrenics, drug addicts, depressives, runaways, drifters, bums & winos, and others afflicted with various levels of dementia, but I wouldn’t want anyone of them to be ordained as Priests and left in charge of children or giving advice on serious issues in a subjective manner or advancing their own agendas! I also don’t want homosexuals ordained as Priests for the same reasons.

These ex-Gay groups are intriguing because they are proof that homosexuality can be mitigated, and their methodology should be emulated…

 

[Tlaloc]

“However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.” APA

HUH?

In *Ignoratio elenchi, *so much for the genetic basis of homosexuality - Thanks Tlaloc (pagan Gods were not noted for their intelligence).

Yes that means no one can say it’s 34% genetic and 27% environement and so on. There is no rigorous understanding of the whole but parts of it have been proven and disproven. Unfortunately all you arguments seem to revolve around the parts that are disporven.
(Apparently pagan gods scored well on their reading comprehension)