Exclusive: Carson claimed West Point 'scholarship' but never applied

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Jeanne_S said:
Is it any wonder?Considering early in his first term,in an interview with George Stephanoplous he made a comment about his Muslim faith and George corrected him,saying,you mean your Christian Faith…really!?!:cool: Freaudian slip if ever there was one:eek:
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It’s seven years later now.
 
Good_Tidings said:
It appears he is more of a threat to the Republican establishment. I can’t imagine a debate between him and Hillary if she is nominated.
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On shrillness and bad demeanor,yeah Hillary will win hands down,outside of that…
 
Jeanne_S said:
Why are you perseverating on this issue?You do know,that your man,Obama lied numerous times in both his books.Problem is no one called him out until after the election.even Ploitico has had to walk back their accusations,admitting they were false.Really let it go already!
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Why let this go if it is the topic of the OP? Obama’s lies are irrelevant to whether Carson lied, unless Carson is using Obama as his role model. According to the evidence presented by EmperorNapoleon (an emperor no less, mind you), Carson did lie about his meeting with Westmoreland and his application to West Point. IOW, there was no meeting and no application. How does this speak to the integrity of Ben Carson, leaving Obama aside for the moment? Probably no better than that of Elizabeth Warren, who claimed she is Native American, and which the Republicans did not let go.

Personally, however, I don’t really care whether Carson lied or not about this particular incident. I’m not supporting him because of his socially conservative ideas as well as his lack of virtually any kind of political experience.
 
Peter_Plato said:
That would be just as “convenient” for you, obviously. No, we don’t KNOW that. You claim that, which is about the full extent of your case.
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We do KNOW that. The General was in Washington DC as Army records state not having dinner with Ben Carson in Detroit. The only conclusion to be reached is that Carson is lying. Else there must be some massive unprecedented conspiracy between the conservative media, liberal media, US Army, and West Point to make it appear that way. Carson’s ego fancies the conspiracy theory, but I think the simplest answer is the right one in this case; he lied.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
We do KNOW that. The General was in Washington DC as Army records state not having dinner with Ben Carson in Detroit. The only conclusion to be reached is that Carson is lying. Else there must be some massive unprecedented conspiracy between the conservative media, liberal media, US Army, and West Point to make it appear that way. Carson’s ego fancies the conspiracy theory, but I think the simplest answer is the right one in this case; he lied.
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The impression you are leaving is that you are very selective in terms of the “facts” you choose to allow as part of your determination of a conclusion and how you decide when someone “lied.”
"The West Point spokeswoman said **it is certainly possible Carson talked with Westmoreland, **and perhaps the general even encouraged him to apply to West Point.
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But, according to records of Westmoreland’s schedule that were provided by the US Army, the general did not visit Detroit around Memorial Day in 1969 or have dinner with Carson. In fact, the general’s records suggest he was in Washington that day and played tennis at 6:45 p.m. There are, however, several reports of an event similar to the one Carson described in February of that year. Then, Westmoreland was the featured guest at a 1,500-person banquet to celebrate Medal of Honor winner Dwight Johnson.
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"The event drew prominent guests, including the governor at the time, the mayor of Detroit, the president of Ford Motor Company and nine previous Medal of Honor recipients, according to an Associated Press account of the event. **Carson, a leader of the city’s ROTC program at the time, may have been among the invited guests at the $10-a-plate event. **Carson’s later retelling of the events in this period of his life downplays his meeting with Westmoreland and that event’s link to a West Point acceptance.
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In his January 2015 book ‘You Have a Brain’ – a book geared toward teenagers – Carson again recalls his rapid rise through his high school’s ROTC program to become the top student officer in the city. 'That position allowed me the chance to meet four-star general William Westmoreland, who had commanded all American forces in Vietnam before being promoted to Army Chief of Staff at the Pentagon in Washington, DC,’ he wrote.
rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2015/11/06/they_think_they_ve_got_ben_carson_with_a_very_cleverly_written_politico_story
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Notice all three events that Carson reports happened to him are credible and, in fact, probable given his standing in the ROTC.

The fact that Westmoreland was in Washington on the Memorial Day where Carson was at the head of an ROTC contingent is neither here nor there. Westmoreland was in Detroit in February “of that year.”

Here is the crucial quote from his book…
"'I also represented the Junior ROTC at a dinner for Congressional Medal of Honor winners, marched at the front of Detroit’s Memorial Day parade as head of an ROTC contingent, and was offered a full scholarship to West Point.'
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**Do his words necessarily imply that the dinner, the parade and the scholarship offer all occurred ON THE SAME DAY? **Nope. Merely that all three did happen to him at about the same time – meaning at the time he was making a decision about which college to attend.

An admission you are wrong on this would help your credibility at this time. :sad_yes:
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
We do KNOW that. The General was in Washington DC as Army records state not having dinner with Ben Carson in Detroit. The only conclusion to be reached is that Carson is lying. .
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Or that Carson was mistaken about the date. The dinner that the General attended was in in Feb of that year, not around Memorial Day.
 
Peter_Plato said:
**Do his words necessarily imply that the dinner, the parade and the scholarship all occurred ON THE SAME DAY? ** Nope. Merely that all three did happen to him at about the same time – meaning at the time he was making a decision about which college to attend.
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He says they happened on the same day in his book, “Gifted Hands”:

“At the end of my twelfth grade I marched at the head of the Memorial Day parade. I felt so proud, my chest bursting with ribbons and braids of every kind. To make it more wonderful, We had important visitors that day. Two soldiers who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Viet Nam were present. More exciting to me, General William Westmoreland (very prominent in the Viet Nam war) attended with an impressive entourage. Afterward, Sgt. Hunt introduced me to General Westmoreland, and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners.”

General Westmoreland was not there according to Army records.
Brendan said:
Or that Carson was mistaken about the date. The dinner that the General attended was in in Feb of that year, not around Memorial Day.
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Carson was “mistaken” about a lot of things. I think he would have emerged from this relatively unscathed if he had acknowledged that his auto-biography and other books are packed to the rafters with gratuitous embellishment and events that never happened. At least then he might have been able to get away with blaming these things on his ghost writer. Then again, the fact that he has repeated these things himself over the years may have worked against him even in that scenario.
 
Good_Tidings said:
The people leading the charge appear to be conservatives:

In an interview with NBC News’ Chris Jansing on Meet The Press Sunday, Carson blamed the “secular progressive movement” for many of the stories reporting on claims made in Gifted Hands. However, the most prominent articles calling his stories into question have come from Politico and the Wall Street Journal, both of which are owned by conservatives: Robert Allbritton and Rupert Murdoch.
Carson said the news stories are coming out now because he is considered a threat to “the progressive, the secular progressive movement in this country.”
“I’m a very big threat because you know they can look at the polling data, they can tell that I’m the candidate who’s most likely to beat Hillary Clinton,” Carson told Jansing.

thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/11/08/3720350/carson-blames-secular-progressive-movement/

Edit. Even O’Reilly weighs in;
mediamatters.org/video/2015/11/06/oreilly-slams-ben-carsons-dumb-statements/206694
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I can’t decide if Carson is completely clueless about how the primary process works or if he’s just playing the victim-of-the-liberal media card to appeal to his base. Either way, it’s fascinating to watch.

I said earlier in the thread that I thought the GOP establishment and/or Trump was behind this. Now I’m hearing rumblings that it is the former plus Rubio’s superpac who is pushing this. That actually makes more sense than Trump as Rubio has the most to gain now from a Carson implosion. Plus, did you notice Rubio slipped in a document dump this weekend while everyone was talking about Carson? Hmmmm…
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
He says they happened on the same day in his book, “Gifted Hands”:

“At the end of my twelfth grade I marched at the head of the Memorial Day parade. I felt so proud, my chest bursting with ribbons and braids of every kind. To make it more wonderful, We had important visitors that day. Two soldiers who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Viet Nam were present. More exciting to me, General William Westmoreland (very prominent in the Viet Nam war) attended with an impressive entourage. Afterward, Sgt. Hunt introduced me to General Westmoreland, and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners.”

General Westmoreland was not there according to Army records.
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So you are characterizing as “a lie” the words of Carson stating that the three events happened “that day?” Not an oversight? Not an error?

A LIE?

Despite the fact that he very likely did march in the parade, very likely did meet Westmoreland and very likely was offered a fully-paid nomination to West Point?

What sticks in your craw and causes Carson’s claim to become an odious LIE is that these events didn’t happen on the same day?

Yes, this kind of heinous and extravagant misspeaking (“that day”) surely does pack his autobiography with “gratuitous embellishment.”

Just out of interest…

…have you actually read his autobiography?

Do you have other examples of the “gratuitous embellishments” in his writing, or are you content to merely leave the impression that those are liberally distributed throughout his autobiography?
 
Peter_Plato said:
So you are characterizing as “a lie” the words of Carson stating that the three events happened “that day?” Not an oversight? Not an error?

A LIE?

Despite the fact that he very likely did march in the parade, very likely did meet Westmoreland and very likely was offered a fully-paid nomination to West Point.
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We know a number of things about his account:
  1. He could not have turned down an offer of a scholarship because no such offer was extended to him by the only institution that could do so; West Point. He may or may not have been offered an appointment to discuss the application process, but that changes the story, it is a considerable departure from the claim that he declined an actual offer of a scholarship, and there is no record of it.
  2. He did not meet Westmoreland on Memorial Day of that year and there is no record of Carson ever meeting him on any other day. He may or may not have seen or met him somewhere else, but that changes the story and there’s still no record of it.
  3. Westmoreland was not eligible to nominate applicants to West Point as he was not a Congressman, Senator, Vice President, or Secretary of the Army. No record of a nomination for Carson exists.
  4. The story continues to change as Carson apologists and Carson himself attempts to reconcile his statements with the facts that contradict them.
“That day” isn’t the only problem with his story; which is in direct conflict with the facts.
Peter_Plato said:
Yes, this kind of heinous and extravagant misspeaking (“that day”) surely does pack his autobiography with “gratuitous embellishment.”
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The West Point lie isn’t the only one to appear in his books and spoken word.
 
Jeanne_S said:
Why are you perseverating on this issue?You do know,that your man,Obama lied numerous times in both his books.Problem is no one called him out until after the election.even Ploitico has had to walk back their accusations,admitting they were false.Really let it go already!
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👍 I agree. let it go!
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
The West Point lie isn’t the only one to appear in his books and spoken word.
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You haven’t established that even this one was a lie. What you have established is that the known facts are somewhat difficult to reconcile with Carson’s version of the events. That is far from establishing a “lie.”

The fact that you are all too ready to try, convict and hang Carson demonstrates that you do not have the requisite impartiality to make a fair determination about the other purported untruths he might be guilty of.

Sorry, not convinced.

And I don’t have any skin in this game. I am not a Carson supporter, nor am I even part of the American electorate. My sole interest is the truth of a claim and I haven’t seen that established by anything you have written.

Please refrain from rehashing the same points. Repeating them won’t make any of them more convincing or interesting.
 
Peter_Plato said:
You haven’t established that even this one was a lie. What you have established is that the known facts are somewhat difficult to reconcile with Carson’s version of the events. That is far from establishing a “lie.”
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When the facts don’t reconcile then it isn’t true. When you repeat untruth numerous times in print and verbally over a period of years, its lying.
Peter_Plato said:
The fact that you are all too ready to try, convict and hang Carson demonstrates that you do not have the requisite impartiality to make a fair determination about the other purported untruths he might be guilty of.
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All anyone needs to make a fair determination about his other untruths is some grey matter and a browser. One of the funniest and easiest to prove is his lie about Mannatech.

Carson claim: " I didn’t have an involvement with them. That is total propaganda, and this is what happens in our society. Total propaganda."

The truth: Carson made several unpaid promotional videos for Mannatech one of which was with the co-chief executive and chief science officer, was prominently featured on their website, gave a number of paid speeches in one of which he claimed that they donated part of an endowment in his name to Johns Hopkins (which Mannatech says is not a true statement on his part) and three which Mannatech made payment to his Scholars Fund, etc. etc.

Yet another example of the truth being…difficult to reconcile with a Carson whopper. You may not think the West Point lie to be worthy of attention, but a doctor selling out the principles of the profession to become a snake-oil salesman and then lying about it speaks volumes about his character too.
 
meltzerboy said:
Why let this go if it is the topic of the OP? Obama’s lies are irrelevant to whether Carson lied, unless Carson is using Obama as his role model. According to the evidence presented by EmperorNapoleon (an emperor no less, mind you), Carson did lie about his meeting with Westmoreland and his application to West Point. IOW, there was no meeting and no application. How does this speak to the integrity of Ben Carson, leaving Obama aside for the moment? Probably no better than that of Elizabeth Warren, who claimed she is Native American, and which the Republicans did not let go.

Personally, however, I don’t really care whether Carson lied or not about this particular incident. I’m not supporting him because of his socially conservative ideas as well as his lack of virtually any kind of political experience.
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Obama’s lies are not irrelevant. It only shows the double standard that it is okay for Obama to lie time after time and an article is written about Ben Carson-the headline fabricated-and the democrats here are making a mountain out of a molehill. very disappointing!
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
When the facts don’t reconcile then it isn’t true. When you repeat untruth numerous times in print and verbally over a period of years, its lying.

All anyone needs to make a fair determination about his other untruths is some grey matter and a browser. One of the funniest and easiest to prove is his lie about Mannatech.

Carson claim: " I didn’t have an involvement with them. That is total propaganda, and this is what happens in our society. Total propaganda."

The truth: Carson made several unpaid promotional videos for Mannatech one of which was with the co-chief executive and chief science officer, was prominently featured on their website, gave a number of paid speeches in one of which he claimed that they donated part of an endowment in his name to Johns Hopkins (which Mannatech says is not a true statement on his part) and three which Mannatech made payment to his Scholars Fund, etc. etc.

Yet another example of the truth being…difficult to reconcile with a Carson whopper. You may not think the West Point lie to be worthy of attention, but a doctor selling out the principles of the profession to become a snake-oil salesman and then lying about it speaks volumes about his character too.
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So what…

To quote a famous politician: 'What difference does it make?"

Dr Ben Carson will be a great President. He is a non political Conservative. Just what this country needs to whip it back into shape.
:extrahappy:
 
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