Exploring Bahaism

[JimmyDFG]

Then from a Baha’i Viewpoint you have successfully debated the necessity of a New Word from God.

Thou shalt not Kill is an Ancient Law and I would ask has this Law been fully manifest by any religion to date.

I can say from the day the Law was penned by Baha’ullah, that a Baha’i willingly chooses to give their all and indeed their lives to make bloodshed, killing and intolerance things of the past.

All around the world people of all religions change, sit side by side and learn war no more. They sit in Jails are denied education, denied the right to jobs are ridiculed in many places, but will give none of this in return. Imagination, indeed no, Reality a big yes.

Regards Tony

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí ( baha u llah ) is only a mere man. But by your comments you make it sound like the bahai religion is better than the rest

 

[JimmyDFG]

I think the Catholic Church says… people should take a look at the 10 commandments…

Thou shalt not Kill

Don’t forget…
Matthew 22:37-39
37 Jesus said to him, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.

39 The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself.

 

[TonyBS]

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí ( baha u llah ) is only a mere man. But by your comments you make it sound like the bahai religion is better than the rest

You word it as you wish, I say the time for beating Swords into Plowshares has come and is being practiced.

History is a great teacher and we have much too look back on and consider if we did it right, or wrong. If then we choose to learn from the mistakes we made, we have but accepted the Gift from God.

If we do not learn History repeats itself.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Don’t forget…
Matthew 22:37-39
37 Jesus said to him, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.

39 The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself.

This is the Foundation of Gods Religions.Though it may be written in different Words in other scriptures, it is written and It is not exclusive to a Christian

Thus join in celebration to all that Love our One and Only God and do unto other as we would have them do unto us.

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

These conversations with the Bahai become tiring to a certain point and what is there left to explore, in regards to the Christian who believes in his or her faith, in the Bahai religion? Our differences are obvious and it seems the only ones who do not want to admit the insurmountable differences that keep us divided are the Bahai.

The Bahai go on about the unity of all religions but in order to arrive at the point wherein all religions are unified they have to ignore what the adherents of those religions have always said. They have to maintain that Christians are mistaken but somehow we still worship the same God, yet by the criteria of the Quran we are committing of the worst sins imaginable, shirk. When Christians say something about their theology none of it actually seems to impact our spiritual lives according to the Bahai. We are still good, we are still worshipping the one true God (despite committing shirk and being the worst of all creatures, surah 98:6) and it just comes off as if Bahai ignore the reality before them.

Why do you insist on unity to the point of absurdity? You believe we are foolish (as Ali Nuri’s son said) for believing in a physical resurrection.

I compare the attitude of the Bahai to the attitude of Jesus and the Christian saints. They called out what was wrong, Jesus whipped people out of the temple for desecrating it. Jesus called out certain Jews as being sons of Satan. Polycarp called Marcion the firstborn of Satan. Saint Basil called Eunomius an idiot. Many of the fathers called the Roman gods false to their face and yet if I were to imagine the Bahai in the position of these Christians, they would not dare offend any one. Would bahai denounce the pagans with the same power and authority when they can’t even denounce Christianity plainly and unequivocally? I don’t think so.

Bahai might deny what the Quran says and challange every point I have made, but they can only prove me wrong by denouncing Christianity and they can only prove me right by affirming what I say in trying to suggest our differences are not as significant as they are (when they clearly are).

 

[TonyBS]

These conversations with the Bahai become tiring to a certain point and what is there left to explore, in regards to the Christian who believes in his or her faith, in the Bahai religion? Our differences are obvious and it seems the only ones who do not want to admit the insurmountable differences that keep us divided are the Bahai.

The Bahai go on about the unity of all religions but in order to arrive at the point wherein all religions are unified they have to ignore what the adherents of those religions have always said. They have to maintain that Christians are mistaken but somehow we still worship the same God, yet by the criteria of the Quran we are committing of the worst sins imaginable, shirk. When Christians say something about their theology none of it actually seems to impact our spiritual lives according to the Bahai. We are still good, we are still worshipping the one true God (despite committing shirk and being the worst of all creatures, surah 98:6) and it just comes off as if Bahai ignore the reality before them.

Why do you insist on unity to the point of absurdity? You believe we are foolish (as Ali Nuri’s son said) for believing in a physical resurrection.

I compare the attitude of the Bahai to the attitude of Jesus and the Christian saints. They called out what was wrong, Jesus whipped people out of the temple for desecrating it. Jesus called out certain Jews as being sons of Satan. Polycarp called Marcion the firstborn of Satan. Saint Basil called Eunomius an idiot. Many of the fathers called the Roman gods false to their face and yet if I were to imagine the Bahai in the position of these Christians, they would not dare offend any one. Would bahai denounce the pagans with the same power and authority when they can’t even denounce Christianity plainly and unequivocally? I don’t think so.

Bahai might deny what the Quran says and challange every point I have made, but they can only prove me wrong by denouncing Christianity and they can only prove me right by affirming what I say in trying to suggest our differences are not as significant as they are (when they clearly are).

Yes the Differences are what You make them. We just tell you there is a way to reconcile what is True in all of Gods Revealed Words in His Messengers and then differences fade into what they really are.

Nothing but what man has made.

Regards Tony

 

[worldcitizen]

You nailed it, what is this earth shattering Revelation that is going to bring about world Peace and Unity ?

In the first glimmerings of dawn a man may say “What is this resplendent blinding orb you speak of, I see nothing but the light of an oil lamp”??

In the early days of the dawn of Christ’s Revelation it was not seen how bright the light of His Sun shone but now, when kings and queens and billions bow the knee His Light is evident everywhere.

Who but the early disciples knew of His true brilliance at that time?? We have yet to see the brilliance of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation for it is only 200 years old whilst Christianity is 2,000 years old.

We can only talk now like the early disciples spoke and be scoffed at now because there are no kings or queens or Baha’i countries YET but in time every knee will bow. Just like the early disciples had faith so we have faith and time will reveal the truth of all that we speak just like time did validate what the disciples taught.

It’s only a matter of time and faith nothing else. The problem is though how to believe and accept just having faith? The disciples had faith and though they were persecuted stood firm until their very enemies became conquered and Rome the oppressors became the Seat of Christianity. But if anyone told you that in the early days they would have been laughed at.

Just like Baha’is and their religion and Baha’u’llah is laughed at now. But when the victory arrives every man will profess himself a believer.

“When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth” Baha’u’llah

 

[arthra]

eddie too wrote:

why should anyone believe in bahaullah and his teachings? Jesus already established unity among His followers. this unity is open to every human being.

*Eddie:

Baha’is don’t deny that Jesus brought a degree of unity among His followers… Prophet Muhammad also united the tribes of Arabia and also with non-Arabs… Baha’u’llah has called upon us to unite with the whole of humanity and establish the foundations of a world civilization.
*

Eddie wrote:

maybe in an imaginary world sinful men will, without the assistance of Jesus Christ and His graces, lay down their weapons and forget their differences because Bahaullah said it is an idea that came to him from God.

*I think we would welcome Christians and pray that Jesus teachings will also aid in ending war…
*

Eddie wrote:

in the real world, why would anyone believe Baha’u’llah has hitherto unknown insights in to the nature of reality that will make men stop fighting amongst each other? i am not saying it is a bad idea. i am saying it is the stuff of imagination, not reality.

*Well Baha’u’llah wrote the rulers of His time around 1868 or so while He was in exile and imprisoned… Why would anyone listen to a Persian prisoner in a Turkish penal colony? There’s a book entitled “Summons of the Lord of Hosts” in which you can read the letters Baha’u’llah sent the rulers of His time … regarding reducing armaments…establishing a world court… ending slavery.
*

Eddie wrote:

i have never heard anything from a bahai that explains to me or persuades me that there is some teaching unique in bahaullah’s life or writings that will mystically change human nature.

I think Eddie you may be looking for a “mystical change” when all along there have been profound changes to our society in the last two hundred years that call for improved international relations, equality between men and women, better educational opportunities and a means of world communication that were not there before… The Baha’i principles address these issues.

 

[worldcitizen]

This is just a taste of what is in store for Baha’is.

"How great, how very great is the Cause! How very fierce the onslaught of all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause. Then shall the knights of the Lord, assisted by His grace from on high, strengthened by faith, aided by the power of understanding, and reinforced by the legions of the Covenant, arise and make manifest the truth of the verse: ‘Behold the confusion that hath befallen the tribes of the defeated!’”(Abdul-Baha)

The entire world is expected to arise against the Bahai Faith gradually. We can see small signs of it now.

And this describes it in more detail…

Stupendous as is the struggle which His words foreshadow, they also testify to the complete victory which the upholders of the Greatest Name are destined eventually to achieve.

Peoples, nations, adherents of divers faiths, will jointly and successively arise to shatter its unity, to sap its force, and to degrade its holy name. They will assail not only the spirit which it inculcates, but the administration which is the channel, the instrument, the embodiment of that spirit. For as the authority with which Bahá’u’lláh has invested the future Bahá’í Commonwealth becomes more and more apparent, the fiercer shall be the challenge which from every quarter will be thrown at the verities it enshrines. (Shoghi Effendi)

Of course this most likely includes the Catholic Church. The claim of Baha’u’llah as the return of Christ, as the Father, as it becomes more and more accepted will alarm everyone and force everyone to be either for or against.

To those saying Baha’u’llah is just an ordinary man. If you hang around for another 100 years you may retract that very quickly as it becomes evident that He was the Father to Christians everywhere.

It won’t be so easy to write Baha’u’llah off as victories come. Christ conquered humanity despite opposition and persecution. Baha’u’llah is doing the same now. We are only 200 years old.

 

[TonyBS]

Baha’i might … challenge every point I have made, but they can only prove me wrong by denouncing Christianity

Tell me do you denounce the Jewish Faith and the Custodians of the Old Testament.

Or would you Guide them to a better understanding of the Scriptures they are custodians of in light of the New Testament.?

What Unity do you have or would you have with a Jew?

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes the Differences are what You make them. We just tell you there is a way to reconcile what is True in all of Gods Revealed Words in His Messengers and then differences fade into what they really are.

Nothing but what man has made.

Regards Tony

Ignoring the differences does not mean reconciling them and that is all Bahai propose. That and at certain times you decide to critique views you disagree with. It’s an inconsistent tone that Bahai demonstrate when it comes to this issue and I think it represents a conflict within Bahai theology. You want to believe we are all united, but clearly we are not and you are faced with an irreconcilable contradiction between your faith and reality.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Tell me do you denounce the Jewish Faith and the Custodians of the Old Testament.

Or would you Guide them to a better understanding of the Scriptures they are custodians of in light of the New Testament.?

What Unity do you have or would you have with a Jew?

Regards Tony

In some respects, yes I would criticise Judaism and I have done so in the past. I am not so bold as to suggest Christians are ultimately united with the Jewish people and their religion, except for those Jews who have converted to Christianity. A clear distinction is to be made between Christianity and Judaism, although there is a lot to say on that subject, in particular how Judaism developed post Christianity.

Bahai on the other hand pretend we are unified and then go on to say “by the way, everything you say about God, Jesus and the world is wrong.” I admit real and plain differences which keep us separated, differences which can only be reconciled by one side saying they are wrong and the other right or both are wrong. Both cannot be right.

 

[TonyBS]

Ignoring the differences does not mean reconciling them and that is all Bahai propose. That and at certain times you decide to critique views you disagree with. It’s an inconsistent tone that Bahai demonstrate when it comes to this issue and I think it represents a conflict within Bahai theology. You want to believe we are all united, but clearly we are not and you are faced with an irreconcilable contradiction between your faith and reality.

Daniel Had the Vision

20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

on to

Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

on to

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Yes who are we to say “What doest thou?”.

Daniel seals up an closes the book but also provides the keys to Open the Books in the Last Days.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

In some respects, yes I would criticise Judaism and I have done so in the past. I am not so bold as to suggest Christians are ultimately united with the Jewish people and their religion, except for those Jews who have converted to Christianity. A clear distinction is to be made between Christianity and Judaism, although there is a lot to say on that subject, in particular how Judaism developed post Christianity.

Bahai on the other hand pretend we are unified and then go on to say “by the way, everything you say about God, Jesus and the world is wrong.” I admit real and plain differences which keep us separated, differences which can only be reconciled by one side saying they are wrong and the other right or both are wrong. Both cannot be right.

Yes there is a lot to say on the subject, but consider when we explore the many other aspects of Gods Word and reason seems to prevail, it does not take long before the posters that are one minded on what they see Wrong, convert the subject back to the core subjects of what is safe for them.

There is no pretending in what we say, this indeed is what we see, a True Unity in the Oneness of God.

Regards Tony

 

[worldcitizen]

Ignoring the differences does not mean reconciling them and that is all Bahai propose. That and at certain times you decide to critique views you disagree with. It’s an inconsistent tone that Bahai demonstrate when it comes to this issue and I think it represents a conflict within Bahai theology. You want to believe we are all united, but clearly we are not and you are faced with an irreconcilable contradiction between your faith and reality.

This is how we will all be united…

Say, all are created by God." This lofty utterance is like unto water for quenching the fire of hate and hostility which is hidden and stored in men’s hearts and minds. This single utterance will cause the various sects and creeds to attain the light of true unity. Verily He speaketh truth and guideth to the right path; and He is the mighty, the glorious, the omnipotent. Baha’u’llah

 

[eddie_too]

it is a fantastical belief the idea that if everyone just stopped believing what they believe, or maybe some would put it as, if everyone ignored the differences in what they and others believe, and believe what the bahai believe then the world would be united. of course it is logically true, if everyone gave up their own beliefs or ignored the differences and instead believed the bahai, there would be unity. why anyone would think such a thing is going to or even should occur is another entire question.

christians know that Jesus gave Himself for their unity. christians also know that the only real unity that human beings can experience comes through the gift of the Holy Spirit given to us through Jesus, the Incarnate Word.

since christians already know that the unity of mankind was preached nearly two thousand years ago by Jesus; and that Jesus in fact explained what this unity is and how it is achieved in the Holy Spirit; for christians, bab and bahaullah and their teachings are superfluous. christians have had for 1,800 years what, supposedly the bab and bahaullah thought in the nineteenth century were new revelations from God.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Something here for everyone not to like:

Our Church has said that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Pope St. John Paul II has even gone so far as to say that Islam is a religion. But the Church has not of yet acknowledged either Mohammed or Baha’u’llah as prophets. If a Christian would want to make this acknowledgment, how could he do so without the necessity of converting to either Islam or the Baha’i Faith?

Our Creator established His Covenant with Abraham. His son Ishmael was circumcised at the age of 13 and so became part of that covenant. Ishmael became the father of the great nation: the Ishmaelites. Abraham’s other son Issac became the father of YHWH’s Chosen People. Moses blessed them with YHWH’s Law in about 1300 B.C.E.

About 1300 years later the Chosen People received an even greater gift: the Messiah, who gave them the true interpretation of YHWH’s Law and demonstrated how to follow it. That Great Rabbi authorized His disciples to further interpret Mosaic Law according to their Church’s needs. At this time the nation founded by Ishmael had not received either Law or Messiah.

By 600 C.E. both Judaism and Christianity had made inroads into the Arabian peninsula.
It is my belief that YHWH commissioned Mohammed to take his available pieces of Judaism and Christianity and meld these into a monotheistic religion for the sons of Ishmael.
I note the Gospel story of the Canaanite woman as being relevant here.

----He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.”
But the woman had come up and was kneeling at His feet. “Lord,” she said, “help me.”
He replied, “It is fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the house dogs.”
She retorted, “Ah yes, sir; but even house dogs can eat the scraps that fall from their master’s table.”
Then Jesus answered her, “Woman, you have great faith. Let your wish be granted.”—

In other words, Mohammed did not receive a new Law. YHWH authorized him to take the “scraps from the master’s table” and compose these into a monotheistic religion suitable for the Ishmaelites. The power and truth of our Creator’s Laws and Teachings are such that even their “scraps” put together form a valid religion. (It should be noted that at least one of these scraps was not valid, and that was the heretical Christian teaching that Jesus himself was not the one who was crucified, but that someone took his place. And this error may be noted in the Koran.)

While not saying that Mohammed was anywhere near as great as Moses, certain parallels may be noted. Both were military commanders. Both brought monotheism and the Law to their respective peoples. And both Judaism and Islam gave rise to their respective Messiahs after over a thousand years had passed.

And that brings us to Mirzah Husayn Ali, the Messiah of Shi’ite Islam, who corrected the excesses of Islam as well as adding new traditions. And just as the Teachings and Interpretations of Rabbi Yeshu transcended Judaism thereby infecting the whole world, so the Teachings of Baha’u’llah transcend Islam and are a lesson for all of us.

[Interesting though that the Baha’i Faith (in parallel with Islam) errors in its understanding of the Resurrection by denying that Jesus’s body disappeared from His tomb and from the inside of His burial linen. But I feel that its spiritual take on the Resurrection is an improvement over the Koran.]

The nations will eventually have a world government. We should do that the easy way by realizing that there is only room in this world for one nuclear armed superpower. But I’ve already talked about that.

 

[Techno2000]

In other words, Mohammed did not receive a new Law. YHWH authorized him to take the “scraps from the master’s table” and compose these into a monotheistic religion suitable for the Ishmaelites. The power and truth of our Creator’s Laws and Teachings are such that even their “scraps” put together form a valid religion. (It should be noted that at least one of these scraps was not valid, and that was the heretical Christian teaching that Jesus himself was not the one who was crucified, but that someone took his place. And this error may be noted in the Koran.)

**For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:33**

 

[JimmyDFG]

You word it as you wish, I say the time for beating Swords into Plowshares has come and is being practiced.

History is a great teacher and we have much too look back on and consider if we did it right, or wrong. If then we choose to learn from the mistakes we made, we have but accepted the Gift from God.

If we do not learn History repeats itself.

Regards Tony

So its bahai belief that other religions are a “mistake”?
Tony, The mistake would be denying Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection

 

[TonyBS]

So its bahai belief that other religions are a “mistake”?
Tony, The mistake would be denying Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection

Again JimmyDFG that is twisting what is said to suit an agenda.

Tell me, as the Old Testament is the recorded Word of God. Why have the Jews not accepted Jesus as the Christ? Is the Word wrong or did the Jewish Religion miss something?

You are well aware the Baha’i hold to all Truth in all the Revealed Words of God as explained by Baha’u’llah.

Likewise the Sacrafice of Christ and the Resurection of Christ is 100% believed using the keys of meaning given by Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tonyb