Exploring Bahaism

[JimmyDFG]

Besides does the Apostolic Succession of the Rabbinic Order agree with the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity? And yet Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, right?

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As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New

It was, as the Church calls it, a deposit — “the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude, 2) — for which the Church was to “contend” but to which she could add nothing. Thus, whenever there has been question of defining a doctrine, whether at Nicæa, at Trent, or at the Vatican, the sole point of debate has been as to whether the doctrine is found in Scripture or in Apostolic tradition. The gift of Divine assistance (see I), sometimes confounded with Revelation by the less instructed of anti-Catholic writers, merely preserves the supreme pontiff from error in defining the faith; it does not enable him to add jot or tittle to it. All subsequent revelations conferred by God are known as private revelations, for the reason that they are not directed to the whole Church but are for the good of individual members alone, They may indeed be a legitimate object for our faith; but that will depend on the evidence in each particular case. The Church does not propose them to us as part of her message. It is true that in certain cases she has given her approbation to certain private revelations. This, however, only signifies:

•that there is nothing in them contrary to the Catholic Faith or to the moral law, and,
•that there are sufficient indications of their truth to justify the faithful in attaching credence to them without being guilty of superstition or of imprudence.

 

[Servant19]

As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New

It was, as the Church calls it, a deposit — “the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude, 2) — for which the Church was to “contend” but to which she could add nothing. Thus, whenever there has been question of defining a doctrine, whether at Nicæa, at Trent, or at the Vatican, the sole point of debate has been as to whether the doctrine is found in Scripture or in Apostolic tradition. The gift of Divine assistance (see I), sometimes confounded with Revelation by the less instructed of anti-Catholic writers, merely preserves the supreme pontiff from error in defining the faith; it does not enable him to add jot or tittle to it. All subsequent revelations conferred by God are known as private revelations, for the reason that they are not directed to the whole Church but are for the good of individual members alone, They may indeed be a legitimate object for our faith; but that will depend on the evidence in each particular case. The Church does not propose them to us as part of her message. It is true that in certain cases she has given her approbation to certain private revelations. This, however, only signifies:

•that there is nothing in them contrary to the Catholic Faith or to the moral law, and,
•that there are sufficient indications of their truth to justify the faithful in attaching credence to them without being guilty of superstition or of imprudence.

My friend, that “old saying” still applies today.

The MYSTERY of the Trinity
…among so many other things…

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” - John 16:12

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[Servant19]

So you believe anyone has free rein to make a religion?

No, and not everyone has.

And those who have, and deceived don’t last beyond 200 years, that’s for sure.

False religions have been attempted by thousands of “anyones” since day 1, where are they today?

.

 

[Techno2000]

I guess you have been given good reason now Techno, to study your own religion and only then will you realise that the Baha’i Faith is the fulfillment of Catholicism

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Not even close Servant19

 

[JimmyDFG]

My friend, that “old saying” still applies today.

The MYSTERY of the Trinity
…among so many other things…

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.” - John 16:12

.

In regard to which the Spirit of Truth( Holy Spirit ) shall be their guide., they are parts of the revelation which the minds of the disciples are not yet fitted to receive.

 

[JimmyDFG]

No, and not everyone has.

And those who have, and deceived don’t last beyond 200 years, that’s for sure.

False religions have been attempted by thousands of “anyones” since day 1, where are they today?

.

When Jesus said in Matthew 24:11"Many false prophets will arise; they will deceive many,"
and in…
Matthew 24:24 “for false Christs and false prophets will arise and provide great signs and portents, enough to deceive even the elect, if that were possible”
Wouldn’t that give any indication on how persuasive these Prophets and/or religions would be. Even with their new revelations and Manifestations

 

[Servant19]

In regard to which the Spirit of Truth( Holy Spirit ) shall be their guide., they are parts of the revelation which the minds of the disciples are not yet fitted to receive.

Its been 2000 years Jimmy, and the Trinity is still a mystery and whatever has been taught more recently has been a source of Christian division, not Truth…

As I keep asking, which Spirit of Truth do I listen to about the filioque? The Catholic one or the Orthodox one?

Catholicism admits to not having ALL TRUTH, so may be a rethink is needed as to who the Spirit of Truth is?

(and I will give you a hint, it’s not Jesus or Baha’u’llah or Muhammad, its ALL of them)

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[arthra]

Servant19;13659886:

A better question would be “Do you support the idea of Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament?” But wait, the Baha’i Faith has already hedged on that question and refused to support such disarmament.

Actually Jeffrey the guidance on that issue has been provided for some time… by Baha’u’llah:

He wrote to all the kings and rulers encouraging, advising and admonishing them in regard to the establishment of peace; making it evident by conclusive proofs that the happiness and glory of humanity can only be assured through disarmament and arbitration. This was nearly fifty years ago. Because he promulgated the message of Universal Peace and international agreement, the kings of the Orient arose against him for they did not find their personal and national benefits advanced by his admonition and teaching.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 25)

*As to the question of disarmament, all nations must disarm at the same time. It will not do at all, and it is not proposed, that some nations shall lay down their arms while others, their neighbours, remain armed. The peace of the world must be brought about by international agreement. All nations must agree to disarm simultaneously…

No nation can follow a peace policy while its neighbour remains warlike. There is no justice in that. Nobody would dream of suggesting that the peace of the world could be brought about by any such line of action. It is to be brought about by a general and comprehensive international agreement, and in no other way…

Simultaneous action, he went on, is necessary in any scheme of disarmament. All the governments of the world must transform their battleships and warcraft into merchant vessels. But no one nation can by itself start in upon such a policy and it would be folly should one power attempt to do so … it would simply invite destruction…
*
'Abdu’l-Bahá in Canada" (Thornhill: Bahá’í Canada Publications, 1987), pp. 34-35

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 171)



(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 171

 

[worldcitizen]

Not even close Servant19

What about Brothers in Arms in the fight against materialism then??

 

[Techno2000]

What about Brothers in Arms in the fight against materialism then??

I can go with that

 

[Servant19]

What about Brothers in Arms in the fight against materialism then??

I can go with that

So whats the plan friends?

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[Iron_Donkey]

The point is dear friend, that if you love a murderer, then it is because of Christ that you love him/her. If Christ is seen in a murderer, then surely He exists in all things, albeit in varying degrees

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Yes, Christ is in all people, and all created things flow from Christ and so reflect His goodness to some extent.

But this does not mean that all things are Christ, or that Christ is the only thing and that our individual identities as beings separate from Christ are bad. When we see Christ in another person, we see God’s love for that person, working with and within that person, and one created in the image of God. But we still see that person himself, the person that God loves and created. God loves each of us because of who we are - not because we’re some sort of piece of Him that he will reabsorb at some point in the future.

But again - whether you agree with me or not, it is simple fact that Christ taught that we are actual individuals who will persist as individuals, and that that is good, and that Buddha taught that that was false. So they can’t both be right.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, Christ is in all people, and all created things flow from Christ and so reflect His goodness to some extent.

But this does not mean that all things are Christ, or that Christ is the only thing and that our individual identities as beings separate from Christ are bad. When we see Christ in another person, we see God’s love for that person, working with and within that person, and one created in the image of God. But we still see that person himself, the person that God loves and created. God loves each of us because of who we are - not because we’re some sort of piece of Him that he will reabsorb at some point in the future.

But again - whether you agree with me or not, it is simple fact that Christ taught that we are actual individuals who will persist as individuals, and that that is good, and that Buddha taught that that was false. So they can’t both be right.

Thank you Iron Donkey

Indeed we do have Christ in all of us, an unborn, uncreated Person, and it is our sinful self that diminishes the light of Christ to shine through all of us in all its glory and splendour.

Please consider the perspective that the Buddha taught.

“There is the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, and therefore there is an escape from the born, created, formed, originated. If it were not for the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, there would be no escape from the born, created, formed, originated, but because there is the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, there is an escape, there is liberation from the born, created, formed, originated” (Udana VIII.3).

Doesn’t the “unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated” sound like Christ to you?

This passage from Buddhist scripture is of course considered to be the condition of Nirvana, but please consider that Buddhism teaches the elimination of all things that relates to self, (or the sinful self to Christians) until there is nothing left but “the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated” and we can finally allow this “Christ-like” reality (which is admittedly in all of us) to shine through us without the self, the carnal self clouding its glory and splendour.

This is how Buddhism and Christianity are connected.

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[JimmyDFG]

Its been 2000 years Jimmy, and the Trinity is still a mystery and whatever has been taught more recently has been a source of Christian division, not Truth…

As I keep asking, which Spirit of Truth do I listen to about the filioque? The Catholic one or the Orthodox one?

Catholicism admits to not having ALL TRUTH, so may be a rethink is needed as to who the Spirit of Truth is?

(and I will give you a hint, it’s not Jesus or Baha’u’llah or Muhammad, its ALL of them)

.

Why is the Holy Trinity a mystery for you Servant? Maybe because you don’t believe? From my understanding the concept of the Holy Trinity is inconsistent and repugnant to the baha’i theology. They attribute the Christian belief in this doctrine to misinterpretation of the Bible.
Servant do you believe that Christ’s promise of another Comforter refers not to the coming of the Holy Spirit, but to the coming of mírzá husayn-`alí núrí?

You believe baptism is not done by water …but by Spirit alone. But you don’t believe in the Holy Spirit?

How can it be Jesus , mírzá husayn-`alí núrí , muhammad …and all the others when they contradict each other? Believing in all of them further adds to the confusion.

Jesus said in John 14:6-7
6" I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

7" If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him"

Where is the equivalent to this in bahaism?

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

jeffrey erwin;13659969:

Actually Jeffrey the guidance on that issue has been provided for some time… by Baha’u’llah:

He wrote to all the kings and rulers encouraging, advising and admonishing them in regard to the establishment of peace; making it evident by conclusive proofs that the happiness and glory of humanity can only be assured through disarmament and arbitration

. This was nearly fifty years ago. Because he promulgated the message of Universal Peace and international agreement, the kings of the Orient arose against him for they did not find their personal and national benefits advanced by his admonition and teaching.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 25)

*As to the question of disarmament, all nations must disarm at the same time. It will not do at all, and it is not proposed, that some nations shall lay down their arms while others, their neighbours, remain armed. The peace of the world must be brought about by international agreement. All nations must agree to disarm simultaneously…

No nation can follow a peace policy while its neighbour remains warlike. There is no justice in that. Nobody would dream of suggesting that the peace of the world could be brought about by any such line of action. It is to be brought about by a general and comprehensive international agreement, and in no other way…

Simultaneous action, he went on, is necessary in any scheme of disarmament. All the governments of the world must transform their battleships and warcraft into merchant vessels. But no one nation can by itself start in upon such a policy and it would be folly should one power attempt to do so … it would simply invite destruction…
*

I am aware of all of these lines. They were made before the advent of nuclear weapons. Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament means that one of the world’s superpowers stands down and destroys all of its nuclear weapons without requiring the other nuclear superpower to do the same. By accomplishing that brave act, the nuclear disarming state saves humanity from the disaster of a global nuclear war.

What “invites destruction” now is to allow the ICBM/SSBN stand-off between Russia and the USA to continue unabated. Russia is replacing all of its Soviet era ICBMs with the new “flat-trajectory” model which is impossible to intercept. The USA will spend one trillion dollars just on nuclear warheads, and that does not include the upgrade of the B-61 nuclear bomb to the “smart” B61-12.

Baha’i prophecies are quite clear as to the advent of nuclear disaster, and so are those of both the Old and New Testaments. I would have hoped that the UHJ and the NSA/USA would have the courage to call for UND-USA. The only reason that I can suppose that they refuse to do is that they are pandering to public opinion. UND seems to be a very unpopular idea both in Catholic Answers forums and the USA in general.

 

[eddie_too]

why should anyone believe in bahaullah and his teachings?

Jesus already established unity among His followers. this unity is open to every human being.

maybe in an imaginary world sinful men will, without the assistance of Jesus Christ and His graces, lay down their weapons and forget their differences because bahaullah said it is an idea that came to him from god.

in the real world, why would anyone believe bahaullah has hitherto unknown insights in to the
nature of reality that will make men stop fighting amongst each other?

i am not saying it is a bad idea. i am saying it is the stuff of imagination, not reality.

i have never heard anything from a bahai that explains to me or persuades me that there is some teaching unique in bahaullah’s life or writings that will mystically change human nature.

 

[Techno2000]

why should anyone believe in bahaullah and his teachings?

Jesus already established unity among His followers. this unity is open to every human being.

maybe in an imaginary world sinful men will, without the assistance of Jesus Christ and His graces, lay down their weapons and forget their differences because bahaullah said it is an idea that came to him from god.

in the real world, why would anyone believe bahaullah has hitherto unknown insights in to the
nature of reality that will make men stop fighting amongst each other?

i am not saying it is a bad idea. i am saying it is the stuff of imagination, not reality.

i have never heard anything from a bahai that explains to me or persuades me that there is some teaching unique in bahaullah’s life or writings that will mystically change human nature.

You nailed it, what is this earth shattering Revelation that is going to bring about world Peace and Unity ?

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

“We see some people who desired freedom boasting of it. … The consequences of freedom end in sedition, the fire of which is unquenchable.”
“The freedom which benefits you is servitude to God, the True one, and whoever has found this sweetness of freedom will not exchange it for the kingdom of sovereignty of the heavens and the earth.”

“It is not for him who loves his country to be proud, but [rather] for him who loves the whole world.”

“. . .if the Friends of God be slain it is better in the eyes of this Oppressed One than that they should injure anyone.”

I do not feel that the Baha’i Faith has nothing new to offer. The Idea of a World Government was not useful back in the 1st century. It is now.

It also appears from reading these posts that no Baha’i would voluntarily serve in a military unit that was armed with nuclear weapons. Although they haven’t said so, I don’t think that Baha’is would be involved in the design or manufacture of those evil devices either. So if everyone in the world was a Baha’i, we would have a World Government and no nuclear weapons. That would be a big difference.

I have suggested that our Holy Catholic Church should impose the same protocols against nuclear weapons as are imposed against abortion. All Catholics should be prohibited from serving in military units that are armed with nuclear weapons and should not be allowed to design or build these devices either. But I get absolutely no support for this idea.

 

[Techno2000]

I do not feel that the Baha’i Faith has nothing new to offer. The Idea of a World Government was not useful back in the 1st century. It is now.

It also appears from reading these posts that no Baha’i would voluntarily serve in a military unit that was armed with nuclear weapons. Although they haven’t said so, I don’t think that Baha’is would be involved in the design or manufacture of those evil devices either. So if everyone in the world was a Baha’i, we would have a World Government and no nuclear weapons. That would be a big difference.

I have suggested that our Holy Catholic Church should impose the same protocols against nuclear weapons as are imposed against abortion. All Catholics should be prohibited from serving in military units that are armed with nuclear weapons and should not be allowed to design or build these devices either. But I get absolutely no support for this idea.

I think the Catholic Church says… people should take a look at the 10 commandments…

Thou shalt not Kill

 

[TonyBS]

I think the Catholic Church says… people should take a look at the 10 commandments…

Thou shalt not Kill

Then from a Baha’i Viewpoint you have successfully debated the necessity of a New Word from God.

Thou shalt not Kill is an Ancient Law and I would ask has this Law been fully manifest by any religion to date.

I can say from the day the Law was penned by Baha’ullah, that a Baha’i willingly chooses to give their all and indeed their lives to make bloodshed, killing and intolerance things of the past.

All around the world people of all religions change, sit side by side and learn war no more. They sit in Jails are denied education, denied the right to jobs are ridiculed in many places, but will give none of this in return. Imagination, indeed no, Reality a big yes.

Regards Tony