EXSURGE DOMINE - Condemning The Errors Of Martin Luther

[reen12]

Poor Martin. As Tezel’s agents sang the ditty:

As soon as the coin in the coffer rings
A soul from purgatory springs…

Martin’s piety was injured. How could these men “sell” indulgences?
Not that this was ever the official teaching of the Church.

Consulting the current catechism of the CC, on the Vatican’s website:
In terms of indulgences, one finds:

#1441
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all
of the temporal punishment due to sin.”
“The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.”

Apply them? This is fascinating terminology.

Apply them?

It ‘rings’ strangely, in the ear. Sounds more like the bus ‘transfer,’ of times past.
“This transfer entitles you to…”
Or collecting stamps, in a supermarket - in order to purchase your
very own set of dishes, at reduced cost.

“Here. Take my stamp - That’ll give you a full book.” :juggle:

---

“Gee. I’ve almost got enough days of indulgence, to spring my great great granny out of purgatory.”

“Here. Take the indulgence I earned. Then you’ll have a bigger number of days”

“I wonder if you’re allowed to ‘apply’ your earned indulgence to my great great granny?”

Thus are theological screeds generated, to address such weighty matters.

Summa ridiculosis. Part II section 11, paragraph 3:

“In the matter of rescuing one’s great, great, granny from purgatory,
please refer to the CCC, #1441, for details. And no, anticipating your next
question: An indulgence has no expiration date.
And please stop asking stupid questions.” :tsktsk:

Three souls - awaiting the reception of the ‘all clear’ paperwork,
from the Indulgence Bureau. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Martin, call your office…

reen12

 

[Jimmy_B]

Poor Martin. As Tezel’s agents sang the ditty:

As soon as the coin in the coffer rings
A soul from purgatory springs…

Martin’s piety was injured. How could these men “sell” indulgences?
Not that this was ever the official teaching of the Church.

Consulting the current catechism of the CC, on the Vatican’s website:
In terms of indulgences, one finds:

#1441
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all
of the temporal punishment due to sin.”
“The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.”

Apply them? This is fascinating terminology.

Apply them?

It ‘rings’ strangely, in the ear. Sounds more like the bus ‘transfer,’ of times past.
“This transfer entitles you to…”
Or collecting stamps, in a supermarket - in order to purchase your
very own set of dishes, at reduced cost.

“Here. Take my stamp - That’ll give you a full book.” :juggle:

---

“Gee. I’ve almost got enough days of indulgence, to spring my great great granny out of purgatory.”

“Here. Take the indulgence I earned. Then you’ll have a bigger number of days”

“I wonder if you’re allowed to ‘apply’ your earned indulgence to my great great granny?”

Thus are theological screeds generated, to address such weighty matters.

Summa ridiculosis. Part II section 11, paragraph 3:

“In the matter of rescuing one’s great, great, granny from purgatory,
please refer to the CCC, #1441, for details. And no, anticipating your next
question: An indulgence has no expiration date.
And please stop asking stupid questions.” :tsktsk:

Three souls - awaiting the reception of the ‘all clear’ paperwork,
from the Indulgence Bureau. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/FlamesforOTstory2-1.jpg

Martin, call your office…

reen12

Lol, you’re funny and I mean that in a nice way but that doesn’t answer the question posed here, now does it?

Please try again, thank you.

Peace

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lol, you’re funny and I mean that in a nice way but that doesn’t answer the question posed here, now does it?

Please try again, thank you.

Peace

From a completely historical point of view, putting one’s Catholicism aside, Luther’s protestant reformation is a key domino in the progression from the renaissance with its vistages of the Middle Ages to the modern ideas of democracy and personal freedom. Whether we Catholics like to admit it or not, Luther started a new revolution of thinking. The individual has the right to interpret scriptures for himself. Whether we like this or not, it began a mode of thinking that changed the political landscape of Europe.

Luther’s reformation challenged the political power of the popes for the first time and led European countries to form out of the chaos of medievel Europe. Kings rose up against the pope and the Church, writings that had previously been heretical and forbidden could be published, sciences that previously would have been considered ungodly were explored, poetry of a secular/non-religious nature came about, a new world of democracy began to flourish, and Europe entered the modern age. The old Europe where kings dominated fiefdoms and wealthy landowners bought bishoprics with annates and the pope interfered in the politics of royal houses, used Peter’s Pence to fund wars, and the general Church-dominated autocratic culture of Europe was toppled.

The ideas of the reformation about the freedom of the Christian man’s conscience, personal interpretation and individualistic relationships with Christ, the idea of a secular society apart from a religious one all created the ideas of the United States and the French Revolution. Without Luther we wouldn’t have had Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was a Unitarian and highly individualistic. So were most of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. The constitution, the Bill of Rights, the framework of our nation is imbedded in protestant individualism and personal religious thought.

Catholicism would never have permitted the society we have as it favored the medievel one. The Pope is not only a religious leader, he is a political one. Popes in the middle ages were highly corrupt at times, highly sinful, and yes, indulgences were indeed sold in Germany. I have seen indulgence certificates and they were extraordinarly disgusting. They were sold with a price by men like Tetzel.

Protestantism, for good or ill, created what we have as a country today. Men like Jefferson HATED clericalism and wrote laws banning it in Virginia.

It’s ironic that the protestant reformation led to the freedom to debate that we have in these Catholic forums. Were Catholicism firmly in charge with the level of power they maintained in the Middle Ages, anyone in this forum with dissenting opinions about Catholic doctrine would be torched or hanged!

We need intellectual honesty. In the heat of passion, love for Catholicism, etc. we sometimes neglect history and completely forget the benefits of things like the reformation.

 

[po18guy]

Jimmy, if only these wise words had been heeded by the tempestuous hearts of the rebels. If only patience had been first applied instead of its opposite. If only…

We see exactly the same attitudes, exactly the same errors, exactly the same arrogance, the same spirit of antichrist leading those in error today.

That, as much as anything else proves the source of the defiance in the evil one who seeks to destroy the Body of Christ, since his foul offers could not tempt the perfect savior.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Jimmy_B]

…in the Middle Ages, anyone in this forum with dissenting opinions about Catholic doctrine would be torched or hanged! …

Hello gurneyhalleck,

Well, at least I don’t have to worry about being torched or hanged, because I’m not a Catholic dessenter.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I love God with all of my mind, heart, soul and strength.

I fully and completely surrender to Jesus Christ and to His Roman Catholic Church.

I fully submit to the magisterium and recognize the Supremacy of Roman Pope.

I love honor and venerat the Holy Mother of God and my mother too.

I pray and completly accept all that which is in the Bible and the Creed.

I embrace my Christian history and Christian traditions.

I know with every ounce of my being that the Roman Catholic Church is God’s, one true Church. I Thank God that my mother had me babtized, when I was a few days old, into the Church that I truly love, appreciciate and completely agree with.

People here defend aspects of there faith but do they completly surreder to their Faith?

God Bless you!

 

[Jimmy_B]

*I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,and His kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. *
Amen.
+++
*Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. *
*Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. *
*Amen. *
+++
*O’ my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from *
*the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially *
*those in most need of thine mercy. *
Amen
+++
*Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. *
*Amen. *
*+++ *
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; *
*blessed art thou among women, *
*and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. *
*Holy Mary, Mother of God, *
*pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. *
Amen
+++
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God
Amen
+++
*Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory. Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us; you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer. For you alone are the Holy One, You alone are the Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. *
Amen…

 

[po18guy]

We need intellectual honesty. In the heat of passion, love for Catholicism, etc. we sometimes neglect history and completely forget the benefits of things like the reformation.

Flip side is that this “freedom” also paved the way for the greatest atrocities in history. Europe in the 20th century made the Crusades look like a bar fight. Societies quickly moved from “freedom” to license. Theocracies were roundly thrown out and replaced with the evil opposites. Godless megalomaniacs who possessed the mechanical armies that could eliminate millions. And did. But, look at the bright side: at least a pope was not in charge of it!.

Let’s compare, shall we? Corrupt popes , political power and the selling of indulgences. The stifling of “freedom”.

vs.

Total license to kill tens of millions. Combatants? No. grandma, grandpa and their grandchildren. Now, that’s progress.

Methinks you have fallen into the cauldron of relativism.

 

[po18guy]

If you knew anything about the history of the man, you would know that he did not seek out a leadership role of the church.


Spreading lies about people is a sin, you know. Even when you believe you are serving a good cause by it.

Yes, your Honor.

 

[po18guy]

Yet a married clergy will become the norm.

And women priests, women Bishops and women Cardinals! Married lesbian Bishops! Total freedom! Imagine! Oh, wait, the Anglican church is self-immolating based on those same concepts. Oops. Let’s rethink this a little.

Why is a married priesthood the new desire? Until the vocation crisis hurts, young men will not step up. Applying the band-aid of marriage dilutes the vocation, both of marriage and of the priesthood. No, thank you.

 

[po18guy]

Protestantism, for good or ill, created what we have as a country today.

The shattering of the Body of Christ into tiny, impotent shards, the ascent of the evil one, thousands of “legally” murdered babies daily, the death penalty handed out like M&Ms, rampant immorality, marriage in steep decline (and suffering redefinition into ‘any two or more consenting life forms’), the family dissolving, the fabric of society rent asunder. A purely post-Christian age. Yes! What benefits they are. Something to be proud of, huh?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Scripture interpretation: Do Not Try This At Home!
Please leave it to the professionals.

po18guy, nice signiture (above). Thank you for your outsanding posts here and for defending the Catholic Church in 3,489 other posts!

Peace

 

[po18guy]

po18guy, nice signiture (above). Thank you for your outsanding posts here and for defending the Catholic Church in 3,489 other posts!

Peace

Jimmy, Protestants fear the sound of your name! But really, there is much valid thought that the rebellious attitude that germinated within Luther and his followers has spread throughout western civilization and further. It was the 1960s 350 years early. The attitudes it fostered, in some cases, directly caused evil, and certainly paved the way for the fall of the Tsar in Russia, the debauchery of the Weimar Republik in Gernany, the rise of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco et al. His anti-Semitism certainly fed the Nazi movement.

It affected the earth, not just the church, and its effects are seen still. The proliferation of “denominations” in Chrisitanity go directly against Christ’s prayer to the Father that Christians “be one as we are one” (John 17:22). The current corruption within the Anglican church, with wholesale defections planned to the Catholic church is but one (blessed) remnant of the “freedom” that some seem to prize so highly. Remember that freedom (actually “license”) lead to Eve picking the fruit and eating. It is not always a good thing! Ah, but misuse of freedom leads to slavery, as it did in the garden of Eden. Mankind is now a slave to sin as a result of the misuse of freedom. True freedom existed long as God’s simple rules were followed. But, No!

The church Christ founded is hated, ridiculed, despised, denounced, discredited, disdained. And, at what price in human souls? Jimmy, it is ever more important that we press for Christian unity at this point in history. Something much worse is coming, something of apocalyptic proportions, and Christ admonished us to remain awake. His coming will not be like so many imagine! The end times will be so horrendous that Richard Dawkins will be praying and begging to be taken to mass!

This is serious business and we must individually prove our allegiance to and faith in Christ. If this sounds dire, It is.

But, peace remains in Christ, and I wish it to all who visit and ponder these things.

 

[reen12]

The condemnation of Luther. What, Why, How. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

This work ought to be on the bookshelf of every apologist.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The Apologist’s Friend. Stultifying Press

There’s not a dull page in this handy handbook, folks.
We cover it all:

-Indulgences forever, and how to defend the practice.

-‘Treasury of Grace.’ Grace as commodity, and why.
cf: Casuistry and you. Rev. Bede Naive, True Church Publications.

-Learn why Rome did not return the indulgence monies collected -
[Win-Win - and why that’s OK.]
cf. Rev. Bede’s Accounting Principles: A Metaphysics

-Why the money raised, by Tetzel’s emmissaries, was never returned
to the people who had ‘purchased’ indulgences, via Tetzel’s agents.

-Why indulgences do not constitute a ‘works’ theology. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

-Indulgences and Infallibilty: Let’s sort this out.

Available on CD. Apoplectic Press :harp:

reen12

 

[reteeks21]

EXSURGE DOMINE
Condemning The Errors Of Martin Luther
Pope Leo X

---

here

---

Your Thoughts?

Jimmy, you say that you love your fellow Christians that don’t follow your ways, yet the overwhelming majority of your posts are spent bad-mouthing their beliefs. Regardless of whether you agree with us or not, why say you love us and then say nothing but bad things? That seems slightly hypocritical.

 

[Jimmy_B]

reteeks21, (in post No.34) wrote -

"Jimmy, you say that you love your fellow Christians that don’t follow your ways, yet the overwhelming majority of your posts are spent bad-mouthing their beliefs… "

Hello reteeks21,

My posting a quote here (in post # 1), then asking for “your thoughts” amounts to “bad-mouthing”?

I don’t get it. If I spent my time, personally addressing and singling-out Protestants here the way, in which I am personally attacked and single-out, I wouldn’t have time for anything else.

We are all God’s children and we are all sinners, including me. Jesus tells us to love or neighbors and our enemies. I don’t have any “enemies” here but I do have neighbors here and some of them disagree with Catholicism, so naturally, as a Roman Catholic, on a discussion forum, I defend my Catholic faith. Is there anything wrong with that?

I know that there are probably Christians here who are “nicer” than I am, because I’m a cranky old man but that does mean that I cannot question bad or flawed doctrine.

I am sure that you are familiar with the phrase, “Hate the sin but love the sinner”, well that isn’t always the case here but hopefully you understand what I am saying. I do not have the most eloquent writing style and I am a little rough around the edges but I do try to defend the truth and I usually back it up using the Bible.

Just because someone may disagree with you, doesn’t mean that they don’t like you. This is a forum where people discuss their difference, is it not? We are just talking here, right?

If you go back to the first post here, you will see that I’m am simply asking a question. I’m asking this question for two reasons, one, I’m curious to know what the Protestant response is and two; I am attempting to spark a discussion.

You know I still love you guys. :console: I just disagree with you.

If you people here were more active on some of the “nicer” threads that I have started, then we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. If you like “nice”, lighthearted threads, I have started plenty -

Here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here …and so on.

Now, do you have a response to my question here?

Peace

 

[reteeks21]

Hello reteeks21,

My posting a quote here (in post # 1), then asking for “your thoughts” amounts to “bad-mouthing”?

I don’t get it. If I spent my time, personally addressing and singling-out Protestants here the way, in which I am personally attacked and single-out, I wouldn’t have time for anything else.

We are all God’s children and we are all sinners, including me. Jesus tells us to love or neighbors and our enemies. I don’t have any “enemies” here but I do have neighbors here and some of them disagree with Catholicism, so naturally, as a Roman Catholic, on a discussion forum, I defend my Catholic faith. Is there anything wrong with that?

I know that there are probably Christians here who are “nicer” than I am, because I’m a cranky old man but that does mean that I cannot question bad or flawed doctrine.

I am sure that you are familiar with the phrase, “Hate the sin but love the sinner”, well that isn’t always the case here but hopefully you understand what I am saying. I do not have the most eloquent writing style and I am a little rough around the edges but I do try to defend the truth and I usually back it up using the Bible.

Just because someone may disagree with you, doesn’t mean that they don’t like you. This is a forum where people discuss their difference, is it not? We are just talking here, right?

If you go back to the first post here, you will see that I’m am simply asking a question. I’m asking this question for two reasons, one, I’m curious to know what the Protestant response is and two; I am attempting to spark a discussion.

You know I still love you guys. :console: I just disagree with you.

If you people here were more active on some of the “nicer” threads that I have started, then we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. If you like “nice”, lighthearted threads, I have started plenty -

Here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here …and so on.

Now, do you have a response to my question here?

Peace

If I started my discussions with assertions about how faulty your understanding of your faith was, wouldn’t you feel like I wasn’t doing things in love?

 

[Jimmy_B]

If I started my discussions with assertions about how faulty your understanding of your faith was, wouldn’t you feel like I wasn’t doing things in love?

Hello again reteeks21,

Now I think you’re just causing trouble. I do not make assertions regarding anyone’s “understanding” of their faith, I address theological differences and I am a straight talker. Some people here, rather than defending their position or responding to the questions posed here, make personal attacks. If you do like the questions that I post, then start you own threads.

I’m sorry but I’m done responding to you here, off-topic. If you want to continue to address me personally, than please do it in PM, thanks.

Take care and God bless you…

 

[historyb]

I know with every ounce of my being that the Roman Catholic Church is God’s, one true Church.

But how if you don’t know? What if your not sure, because even though I’m back I am and I’m trying to believe that and even saying it, I’m still not sure

 

[Jimmy_B]

But how if you don’t know? What if your not sure, because even though I’m back I am and I’m trying to believe that and even saying it, I’m still not sure

Hello historyb and welcome back.

To answer your question… I know!

The Rosary, the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (Confession) and the Holy Eucharist are powerful tools against doubt.

Jesus loves you
Jesus loves you
Jesus loves you

 

[historyb]

But how do you know you know, you know? I can tell you there is a huge pull for me to go back to my former self.