Extreme Caution to self-learners in Catholic faith (Scott Hahn, Frank Sheed)

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Redeemerslove:
Thirdly, quite often when an Apologist is tailoring his statements to his audience, he uses loose language - but gives the kernel doctrine. We can’t expect ever Apologist to write as if he is addressing and audience of scholars with Ph.Ds - that simply isn’t the audience that buys the bulk of Apologetics material.

Lastly, some people would think that Notre Dame theologians have no place being rated first rate, especially given the hooplah about their liberalism in Hierarchical circles.
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There is nothing more important than your Catholic faith and education, yet people are willing to entrust this to dubious purveyors of Catholic doctrine-- most of them without formal Catholic theological education. Imagine you need brain surgery and therefore your very life requires you to pick a capable surgeon. Would choose someone who has watched Discovery Health Channel and read a few books, or would you at the very minimum require the person have the requisite education and training. Now, imagine your immortal soul requires you to pick a doctor. Would you not go beyond mere competency and try to find the very best in the world?!!! Especially since unlike medical procedures, we can easily choose and use the very, very best from both past and present (e.g., Aquinas and McCabe).
 
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Redeemerslove:
Aspersions are not helpful. Tailoring your statements to an audience has nothing to do with misrepresenting Catholic Theology, but rather with simplifying one’s statements.

I would not teach undergraduates using the same level of terminology, that I would to graduate students. For the undergraduate students must first learn the terminology. This is the same technique Apologists use with those who inquire about the Faith.

We don’t throw around terms like Hypostatic Union, or Transubstantiation, we simply say Jesus is both God and Man and leave it at that. Simply because an Apologist doesn’t give a rigorous explanation of the faith, satisfying to a high-brow Catholic - doesn’t mean it doesn’t satisfies the needs of a person educated to the sixth-grade level.

You ought to engage in Apologetics, and see how many people you bring into the Church. With your standards, only PhD.s would be interested in talking with you.
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First off, I think we as Catholics realize that the greatest and most reliable mind produced by the Church was St. Thomas Aquinas. Now, what might shock people who first approach the very best expositors of Aquinas, such as Fr. Herbert McCabe, OP, Fr. Brian Davies, OP, et al., is that they are infinitely more understandable then the overwhelming and dubious Catholic literature being published. In fact, I’ve found that the lower one goes in terms of the competency of the expositor, the more obfuscations and arcane terminology arise. Reading incompetent theologians and philosophers is like having botched root canal without novocaine, reading the very best theologians and philosophers and you’ll not even be aware you’ve had one.
 
Well, I’m not gonna allow myself to play anyones game…the poster sent me a private message and the author is Scott Hahn and the book is Swear to God… the error is allegedly something to do with sacraments… I like Hahn, but he isnt infallible and I’d like to know what the error is…Scott seems like a genuine person and if he truly is in error, I am sure he would appreciate being contacted, given the proper materials/evidence to correct his position if need be, to correct a mistake if one was made. To act in secrecy is not charitible at all… people are aware of Hahns’ sincerity and I dont think he would have people defend him if he was in error just for the sake of someone’s idea that he has a “fan base” that would get defensive.

And if the theologians at Notre Dame are so special…why is that institution in support of GAYS?
 
G. Frege:
First off, I think we as Catholics realize that the greatest and most reliable mind produced by the Church was St. Thomas Aquinas.
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Possibly. But even he wrote things that would currently be considered to be heretical. If you’re interested, I’ll pull out an example tonight.
 
Hmm, well, I had a nice long vent of a reply about how ridiculous this thread is, but the internet ate it and perhaps that is best so I won’t need to go to Confession over it.

If there is a problem with someone teaching bad theology or heresy, then go to that person first and try and sort it out. I want to say that if I had never ventured to be a “self-learner in the Catholic faith” I probably never would have entered the Church at all. Certainly no one in my circle of family or friends was encouraging me to become Catholic.

The main problem I experienced with being a self-learner was that by the time I was ready to actually set foot in a Catholic church I was not prepared for the disappointment of how few parishioners actually believed all the beautiful doctrine or practiced the heavenly liturgy I had been reading about…from authors such as Scott Hahn.
 
G. Ferge, this has to be the most intellectually dishonest thread in the forum.

If you have a criticism to make of Scott Hahn or Frank Sheed just lay it out here with the titles and page numbers and we will discuss it. We’re here to know more about the Catholic faith and to become better apologists for the Faith and identifying errors or ambiguity or unclear writing can help us.

If you are here to make condescending insulting remarks about Catholic authors without evidence of their error, you ought to expect reception you have so far eceived.
 
All this talk about reading only the best intellectuals for our Catholic studies is making my stomach turn. This advice is not the advice of Holy Mother Church. First and foremost we should be reading and very familiar with the writings of the Saints and Doctors of the Church. I am a convert from the Protestant Church. I don’t look to converts for Catholic teachings. Their writings are very helpful at times, but I read what the 2000 year old Church has set up to be the standard. That is the various Catechisms, Encyclicals, Council documents and the writings of the Saints and Doctors of the Church. I don’t know about all these giant intellectuals this poster speaks of, but I would rather read St Catherine of Sienna, St John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Faustina, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Frances DeSales etc…. St. Catherine’s “The Dialogue” could last you a lifetime by itself. Any of us that make ourselves into little children for the sake of the Kingdom do just fine on the precious milk that our Mother has given us and do not see a need to be taught only by intellectuals. St. Therese of Lisieux is a perfect example of this. She is a stumbling block to many “intellectuals” and her life demonstrates how God uses the weak and foolish things to confound and humble the wise.

Ric
 
I don’t know much about the teachings of the catholic church. I know Im trying to learn as much as I can. Dr Hahn may not be an absolute authority (how many are?) but I believe that he is trying to instruct others to the best of his capability. I do know that most of us can find errors in what we do. The one thing I know is that his tapes and cd’s (and talks on EWTN) were one of the main reasons I came home. I believe that any work that is done that leads people back to the true church is worthy of thanks. Thanks, Dr Hahn.
maggiec
 
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Mandi:
Books use to post an Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat to state that they were approved by the Church and contained no errors. Does anyone know why this practice was stopped.
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You can still seek those before publishing. Many people do not, depending on circumstances. First, there is an issue of time involved, as the process can be slow going. Second, there is a misunderstanding among many as to what they actually mean. Simply having either mark does not guarentee that the work is benificial for the readers. Imprimatur means a Bishop approved of the publishing of the work and the nihil obstat that it contained nothing contrary to the faith. Personally, I wish all “Catholic” books had to have at least one, if not both, before it could say “Catholic” on it.
 
Faithful 2 Rome:
Well, I’m not gonna allow myself to play anyones game…the poster sent me a private message and the author is Scott Hahn and the book is Swear to God… the error is allegedly something to do with sacraments… I like Hahn, but he isnt infallible and I’d like to know what the error is…Scott seems like a genuine person and if he truly is in error, I am sure he would appreciate being contacted, given the proper materials/evidence to correct his position if need be, to correct a mistake if one was made. To act in secrecy is not charitible at all… people are aware of Hahns’ sincerity and I dont think he would have people defend him if he was in error just for the sake of someone’s idea that he has a “fan base” that would get defensive.

And if the theologians at Notre Dame are so special…why is that institution in support of GAYS?
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*"…the error is allegedly something to do with sacraments…" *

I’m glad I took the courtesy and time to write you, so you could read it, obviously not understand it, and despite my wishes, post it.

The error was fundamentally about a misunderstanding of sign (re: the sacraments). But please, don’t take my word for it, pick up the Summa Theol. (vol. 56 of the Blackfriars edition) and read Aquinas on the sacraments (obviously this notion of sign was important to Aquinas, his explication of the sacraments starts with this and he devotes a considerable amount of discussion to it). And as for your attacks on Chesterton’s favorite university, well, try to get a grip on your hate.
 
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maggiec:
I don’t know much about the teachings of the catholic church. I know Im trying to learn as much as I can. Dr Hahn may not be an absolute authority (how many are?) but I believe that he is trying to instruct others to the best of his capability. I do know that most of us can find errors in what we do. The one thing I know is that his tapes and cd’s (and talks on EWTN) were one of the main reasons I came home. I believe that any work that is done that leads people back to the true church is worthy of thanks. Thanks, Dr Hahn.
maggiec
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Lest you or others forget, I never mentioned the name of the author on this thread. But I think you are on to something. In the spirit of charity, perhaps I should correct my earlier position and say that I think apologists and Biblicists should stick to Bible studies and not venture into dogmatic theology (where their lack of training will get them into trouble). Up until recently, this was done by Catholic theologians.
 
Wow. Have you checked Dr. Hahn’s credentials? I would say he more than most!
 
G. Frege:
post reduced by potterygirl… Catholics who chose to get their education in the faith from websites and converts with no formal Catholic theological training receive, at best, shared ignorance.
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Um most converts will get their knowledge of Catholicism (if they do convert) officially through their RCIA classes, where they are taught the church doctrine and belief, traditions, etc.

I am a convert (not yet confirmed) but I have been reading the Gospels from a Catholic Bible, reading The Rock magazine, Catholic Faith & Family Magazine, watching EWTN, listening to EWTN on Sirius, reading numerous books by various known authors who were formally trained and ordained, AND listening to those who have converted to get that same warm and fuzzy feeling all over again that I received when I saw and felt the light of our God.

I hold numerous degrees from universities in many varying fields and I am not ignorant to believe anything from one source (other than the Bible 😃 )!!!

And do you honestly think that private PMs or threads is going to keep folks from finding out to whom you are speaking of as far as the author in question? Gee, it sounds a little childish to be hiding behind PMs for such an intelligent forum as this.
 
G. Frege:
This past weekend I had the occasion to buy a new book by a prominent Catholic apologist. His name shall remain anonymous, but sufficed to say he is beloved on this website and within nearly all orthodox Catholic circles. He is a Catholic convert with little formal Catholic theological training. His book is endorsed by guys who, IMO, do know-- or should know-- their theology. Anyway, on a very basic treatment of a fundamental Catholic doctrine this author gave an explanation that was perfectly wrong.

Here’s a good website to bookmark: christendom-awake.org
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I find it sort of funny that the site recommended prominently links the offending author. 🙂
 
Personally, I think Scott Hahn is great. He explains complex things in such a simple matter without loosing any of the substance. Through his books, especially “*The Lamb’s Supper” *and “*Hail Holy Queen,” *he has really opened up the scriptures for me. He also takes much care to always bring scripture together with Sacred Tradition and Magisterial teaching. I think he does so well a job in breaking down complex topics for everybody to understand that many “learned” scholars don’t know how to take him. I have loaned out his books to friends of mine and they are extremely inspired by them. They are inspired to open their Bibles again with confidence! They have a deeper understanding of how the Mass and Scripture are inseperable. On one of Dr.Hahn’s tapes he says himself that if anything he teaches goes against what the Church teaches he will gladly be the first one to toss the tapes in the fire!

The majority of good, hard working Catholics aren’t going to read thick, deep, theological books, and many other authors just don’t get the point across as Hahn does. I think he is truly a gift to the Church.
 
I think G. Frege is misrepresenting apologetics; he (or she?, sorry) likens it to a pyramid, with the best on top. Therefore, why not just learn from the top?

I disagree; I see it more like a circle or a pie chart. Each piece has its own speciality. One poster, vangrosh, doesn’t need Hahn because he’s already a convert, but others who are Protestants would find him very useful.

Aquinas may be good to G. Frege, but may be too deep for others; that doesn’t mean they should be abandoned as hopeless. A kindergartner can’t read the great books of Western civilization, but that doesn’t mean you take away their primer because it’s “insufficient”. If there are errors in the primer, then point them out, explicitly.

Also, your quote: “You can be sure that anyone whose reaches the level of faculty at places like: Angelicum (Rome), Gregorianum, Georgetown Univ., Catholic Univ. of America, Notre Dame, Blackfriars Hall, Oxford Univ, et al., will not make egregious errors in fundamental theology and doctrine” doesn’t help your credentials any. Lets pick Georgetown University just for starters, you think that Donna Brazile (from the GU website: Adjunct Assistant Professor for Women’s Studies at GU. Donna Brazile, is Chair of the Democratic National Committee’s Voting Rights Institute. Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and former Campaign Manager for Gore-Lieberman 2000, has served as Chief of Staff and Press Secretary for Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, and worked on the campaigns of Carter-Mondale and Rev. Jesse Jackson among others) won’t make any egregious errors? How about Pamela Fox, Women’s Studies Program Director at GU? Let’s review her credentials (also from the GU website): Pamela Fox, is a feminist scholar of literary and cultural studies whose research and teaching focuses on gender and class. Past and present GU courses include “Class Fictions in Contemporary America,” “Feminist Cultural Theory,” “Introduction to Cultural Studies,” “The Victorian Social Novel,” “Cultural Representations of Women,” and the “Women’s Studies Capstone.” Research specialties include working-class literature and culture, American popular culture, feminist materialist theory, literature by women (both British and American)… Yeah, I really want to learn more about the Catholic faith from them !! 😃

-JohnDeP.
 
Hello Mr. Frege!

Just keep in mind that Peter had no credentials except his skill at catching fish and mending nets. Matthew may have been educated as he was a tax collector, well, at least enough to keep the books balanced. In fact, I’d venture to say that not one of the Apostles has any letters at all after their names. The education they got was hands on and not until they had been given the Holy Spirit were they fully qualified to teach in God’s name.

An education doesn’t prevent error nor do credentials provide for proper teaching - a good look inside many Catholic Colleges these days is proof enough - plenty of Phds but not much authentic Catholicism taught. In fact, there is plenty of error being taught and not just by mistake!

What do you consider a “qualified” teacher of the faith? Am I as a parent qualified to teach my daughter about the faith?

Personally I find your comments and critique of another’s work uncalled for and your reasoning rather un-Christian. While I’ve not read all of Theology and Sanity, it seemed to me to be a rather well written book. Perhaps you’ve provided incentive to look it up again. Since you refuse to provide the details of your findings, I can only surmise that this is pure conjecture on your part, and mere gossip.

Do you always have such nice things to say for your brothers and sisters in Christ or do you have a personal problem with Mr. Sheed? I’m just curious.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
G. Frege:
There is nothing more important than your Catholic faith and education, yet people are willing to entrust this to dubious purveyors of Catholic doctrine-- most of them without formal Catholic theological education. Imagine you need brain surgery and therefore your very life requires you to pick a capable surgeon. Would choose someone who has watched Discovery Health Channel and read a few books, or would you at the very minimum require the person have the requisite education and training. Now, imagine your immortal soul requires you to pick a doctor. Would you not go beyond mere competency and try to find the very best in the world?!!! Especially since unlike medical procedures, we can easily choose and use the very, very best from both past and present (e.g., Aquinas and McCabe).
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Finding the very best in the world, may be a good thing to do, if you can find the very best in the world. According to reading books, who is the very best in the world has yet to be determined. Who says they are the very best? And by what criteria do you determine them to be the very best?

Just because you say they are the very best, or even a theologian with great credentials, does not make them the very best. There are great expositors of Theology, and great Inquirers into Theology, very rarely is a person great at booth.

There are great communicators, and great researches - very rarely is a person great at both. So while a Theologian may have an indepth knowledge of Theology, if he can’t communicate that knowledge - he is not as valuable as he would be if he could communicate his knowledge.

I find people some call very knowledgeable in Theology, to be boring. A systematic presentation of the subject matter to an audience of Theologians is one thing, putting that information into a presentable format that Billybob, down on the farm can understand, is another thing all together.

Talking to Billybob is the Apologists job, making an incisive analysis of Theology, is the Researchers job: and I have yet to see a presenter who is great at both. This is why I wonder at the critics of Frank Sheed, and whether they really knew what they were talking about. Maybe Sheed over-simplified, maybe not, but simplification is the Apologists job - if he wants to have a job at all. I think these theologians statements about Sheeds definitions may be found in the root fact that, Sheed was supposed to simplify. His definition may not have met the criteria of intellectual rigor in Academia, but if Billybob got a piece of the truth in Sheed’s presentation - he is better off, than listing to some Theologian who would bore Billybob to tears…:whistle:
 
Scott Hahn surely knows how to reach those of us in need of Catholic Teachings. Regardless of what background he came from, he is NO idiot to theology. The man truly has a gift for teaching the Catholic Faith.

It’s sad but I am now beginning to see(understand) what someone had said here before that “converts make the best Catholics…”
 
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