Extreme Caution to self-learners in Catholic faith (Scott Hahn, Frank Sheed)

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Mandi:
Books use to post an Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat to state that they were approved by the Church and contained no errors. Does anyone know why this practice was stopped.
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I wasn’t aware this had been stopped. I have just boughten books recently and they had the Nihil Obstat as well as the Imprimatur in them. I will have to try and find out when this happened as I too like these.
 
G. Frege:
This past weekend I had the occasion to buy a new book by a prominent Catholic apologist. His name shall remain anonymous, but sufficed to say he is beloved on this website and within nearly all orthodox Catholic circles. He is a Catholic convert with little formal Catholic theological training. His book is endorsed by guys who, IMO, do know-- or should know-- their theology. Anyway, on a very basic treatment of a fundamental Catholic doctrine this author gave an explanation that was perfectly wrong. I will be kind and chalk this up as a reversion to his Protestant rationalist training. Anyway, while I might be sufficiently educated to pick up on this important, albeit subtle, error, I wonder how many less-informed Catholics might be vitiated for life but such an error. …
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I’ve read the thread–lots of dust and body parts flying through the air, but did we ever find out what the alleged error is?

DaveBj
 
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Strider:
I guess I’m a reactionary (by your definition, anyway) because I wouldn’t put ANY credence in theologians from these three institutions.
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AMEN to that! Fr. Richard McBrien of Notre Dame teaches that Christ founded no visible church, has doubts about the number of sacraments, and advocates the ordination of women (not possible as taught ex cathedra by John Paul II) and homosexual men (which would be a violation of canon law).

An assertion trusting pseudoCatholic and fashionable liberalism of mainstream paraCatholic academia more than the truly conservative theology of persons like Dr. Hahn betrays some hidden agenda. I think we can all safely disregard this shameful act of innuendo (and possible slander of a great man).
 
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Redeemerslove:
Now your statement makes sense. And yes Hahn has more than most, but his presentation, Apologetically, simply doesn’t meet my needs. I think Patrick Madrid, who only has a Masters compared to Hahn’s doctorate, is a much better public speaker, Apologetically.

But these are simply preferences.
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You bring up a good point. It is good to have a variety of people willing to teach us. Everyone is going to learn better from different people. And Patrick Madrid is awesome too.
 
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Thomas2:
Just keep in mind that Peter had no credentials except his skill at catching fish and mending nets.
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Excellent point! May I take your point further to say that Saul was the MOST educated of all Christians of that era. And look what HIS education led him to do! Until, of course, the Lord stepped in to “re-educate” this highly educated man.

I personally think that Paul’s spirit has found a home in Scott Hahn (figuratively speaking, of course). Once an avowed anit-Catholic, this man is now leading the charge into a revival of Catholic apologetics not seen since Archbishop Sheen went off the air!

On a personal note, it is Scott Hahn’s work that kept me from converting to protestantism. I talked to Scott last year (actually, twice last year), and after our conversation, I told him:

"You know, Scott, if I told you what I really think of you …

… you’d have a problem with humility, so let’s just leave it at that!"
 
G. Frege:
This past weekend I had the occasion to buy a new book by a prominent Catholic apologist. His name shall remain anonymous, but sufficed to say he is beloved on this website and within nearly all orthodox Catholic circles. He is a Catholic convert with little formal Catholic theological training. His book is endorsed by guys who, IMO, do know-- or should know-- their theology. Anyway, on a very basic treatment of a fundamental Catholic doctrine this author gave an explanation that was perfectly wrong. I will be kind and chalk this up as a reversion to his Protestant rationalist training. Anyway, while I might be sufficiently educated to pick up on this important, albeit subtle, error, I wonder how many less-informed Catholics might be vitiated for life but such an error. I couldn’t help but think of Aristotle’s insight regarding little errors in the beginning…

I can recall reading in the writings of Sir Anthony Kenny and the late Fr. Herb McCabe a similar criticism of Frank Sheed (they both, independently, pointed out the egregious error Sheed made regarding the doctrine of Creation in his book Theology and Sanity).

The bottomline is this: your Catholic faith and education is too important to leave in the hands of anyone but the very best. The great Dominican scholar Fr. A.D. Sertillanges, OP, wrote that Catholics [and all readers] should only read and study the works of first-rate minds of the past and present. What was true in Sertillanges’ day is triply true today, where we are flooded with third, fourth, even fifth-rate minds and their books. Fortunately, we Catholics have more first-rate minds, past and present, than any one of us will ever need. You’ll never have to worry about Oxford theologians like Aidan Nichols, OP, or Brian Davies, OP, or the late Fr. Herbert McCabe, OP, getting some Catholic doctrine wrong, or misunderstanding a fundamental theological point. They might be a little hard at first, but after a little work their superior mental habits will rub off and the reader will be raised to a higher and more exacting intellectual understanding of the faith.

Here’s a good website to bookmark: christendom-awake.org
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Matthew 18:2-5 DRB
(2) And Jesus, calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them.
(3) And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.
(5) And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.***
 
Although I have never met Scott Hahn and have not read all of his books, I can say with reasonable confidence that Mr. Hahn loves the church and accepts all official catholic teaching. If Mr. Hahn was confronted with something that he opined about in error, I believe he would humbly submit himself to the teaching authority of the church. This is the measure of a true catholic.

I am interested in knowing about the egregious error Frank Sheed made regarding the doctrine of Creation in his book Theology and Sanity. If someone knows what this error is please post an answer.

On Sheed’s behalf, it should be pointed out, that in an apologetics debate he would probably run circles around most of the professors at our “best universities.” Members of the Catholic Evidence Guilds were not to be trifled with.
 
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Shari:
You bring up a good point. It is good to have a variety of people willing to teach us. Everyone is going to learn better from different people. And Patrick Madrid is awesome too.
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Exactly. Being a certified twelve-step counselor, I’m aware of personality differences. And so many people forget these issues. Why the doctrinal content of different Apologists presentations, may be the same - different personalities prefer different styles of presentation.

If Scott Hahn has helped someone, the more power to him, and God Bless him for it. But I don’t let personality differences blind me to the many people who have testified to benefiting from his ministry.
 
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Pax:
Although I have never met Scott Hahn and have not read all of his books, I can say with reasonable confidence that Mr. Hahn loves the church and accepts all official catholic teaching. If Mr. Hahn was confronted with something that he opined about in error, I believe he would humbly submit himself to the teaching authority of the church. This is the measure of a true catholic.
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Of that I have no doubt.
I am interested in knowing about the egregious error Frank Sheed made regarding the doctrine of Creation in his book Theology and Sanity. If someone knows what this error is please post an answer.
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Me as well. I have never heard a Theologian criticize Sheed’s doctrinal statements. I just wonder if this is a personality difference on the part of the objecter?
On Sheed’s behalf, it should be pointed out, that in an apologetics debate he would probably run circles around most of the professors at our “best universities.” Members of the Catholic Evidence Guilds were not to be trifled with.
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I agree. From what I have heard they had three years of formal training in both Apologetics, Debate Tactics and Theology.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider
I guess I’m a reactionary (by your definition, anyway) because I wouldn’t put ANY credence in theologians from these three institutions.

the_geezer said:
AMEN to that! Fr. Richard McBrien of Notre Dame teaches that Christ founded no visible church, has doubts about the number of sacraments, and advocates the ordination of women (not possible as taught ex cathedra by John Paul II) and homosexual men (which would be a violation of canon law).

An assertion trusting pseudoCatholic and fashionable liberalism of mainstream paraCatholic academia more than the truly conservative theology of persons like Dr. Hahn betrays some hidden agenda. I think we can all safely disregard this shameful act of innuendo (and possible slander of a great man).
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I have heard these statements from many Religious and Priests. I can’t help but think they are accurate. I had a relationship with a Friary of Priests, Deacons and Deacon Canididiates, at Catholic University, and they talked about a certain Theologian who was teaching that obedience to the Church was not required. This was at the Washington Theological Union. He was ousted a few years ago.

I hear the same abuses are taking place in Notre Dame, etc. While I have not studied their positions, if this disobedience is going on, then I wouldn’t step foot in the door of these “academies.”
 
I guess I am a self-learner. I graduated from a Presbyterian seminary. Now I am a Catholic priest. I did spend 2.5 years in Catholic seminary though. But even then imagine what some guys are learning in some seminaries. I would trust Scott to be more on target them some of them. I am always learning new things about the faith. If I discover I am in error I correct it immediately. Really though we don’t need to worry to much about the converts like Scott. We have plenty of bigger fish to fry. I just got his new book and after I read it I will say whether I think he was in error.

Rattivore
 
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Rattivore:
I guess I am a self-learner. I graduated from a Presbyterian seminary. Now I am a Catholic priest. I did spend 2.5 years in Catholic seminary though. But even then imagine what some guys are learning in some seminaries. I would trust Scott to be more on target them some of them. I am always learning new things about the faith. If I discover I am in error I correct it immediately. Really though we don’t need to worry to much about the converts like Scott. We have plenty of bigger fish to fry. I just got his new book and after I read it I will say whether I think he was in error.

Rattivore
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To be honest Father, I was guessing that it was Scott Hahn that the thread originator was talking about. I don’t remember him every referring to Scott Hahn at all.
 
Please let us in on the error. I try hard to educate myself and my bookshelves are loaded with Protestant converts’ books because they seem to be the ones that most of us ignoramuses can understand. They are an easy read. I’d like to know if this is an error I’ve absorbed or not as I would probably not pick up on it. If it is really wrong, you shouldn’t feel bad simply correcting the error here for the benefit of all.
 
I probably wouldn’t be a Catholic today if it weren’t for teachers like Hahn, Staples, Currie, etc. Frankly, I think the truth in their books far outweighs any error. Perhaps the error is in actuality bad writing, a failure to adequately communicate the thruth through the writing, and future editions of the book will clarify the issue. (I don’ think Hahn is a very good writer. I think he is a far better speaker than writer.)

Most evangelical Christians will never touch a book by a Catholic saint, with the possible exceptions of St. Augustine (only to study the origins of Calvinism) and maybe Mother Teresa. They would feel that it was a waste of their time and possibly even an excursion into non-Scriptural cultism. Also, they wouldn’t have access to such books, because Protestant books stores don’t carry those titles. They wouldn’t even know to ask for them. And they have never heard of any Catholic saints other than Francis, Christopher (whom we all thought was de-sainted), and Augustine. Names like Thomas Aquinas and Teresa of Avila are totally foreign to most Protestants.

At least Hahn, Staples, Jones, Cumbie, and Currie come from churches that Protestant Christians known and trust. Their names are no more familiar to evangelicals than Aquinas and St. John of the Cross. BUT if a Protestant does come across these modern teachers, he/she is more likely to listen to them than to Catholic saints that he/she probably thinks aren’t even real Christians.

Sorry, that’s the way evangelicals are. Not all, but many.

My one complaint with the modern popular apologists like Hahn, etc., is that I wish they could speak to Protestant audiences. When I’ve heard them speak, I get the feeling that they are preaching to the choir.

But I can understand why my complaint is ridiculous; other than to ridicule them, I can’t imagine why any Protestant group would invite them to speak. I know that Tim Staples has debated James White, and James White chortles over Staples’ ignorance and boasts about how easily the Catholic apologist can be defeated. So I can’t say I blame these men for not wanting to be around such arrogant people. It would be tiring and fruitless to have all your words twisted.

But I wish that they could somehow “break through” with a book that Protestants would actually find in Protestant Christian bookstores, or perhaps get some speaking engagements on Protestant college campuses. I would like to suggest Calvin College as a good place to start. My daughter is a student there, and the college is known (and utterly blasted by many other Protestants) as a very open-minded college. One of the professors is father to a member of Indigo Girls, and this group has performed at Calvin. Other speakers include liberals like Garrison Keillor. At the moment, there is a “Homosexuality and Faith” study going on.

And I know that in the student newspaper, several articles have dealt in depth with Catholicism as an option for Christians.

The college just finished a production of “Edith Stein,” which was very well received. (My “Protestant” daughter now makes regular visits to the Carmelite Convent outside of the town to enjoy the quiet and contemplative atmosphere, and try to figure out God.)

Anyway, wouldn’t it be cool if Protestant converts to Catholicism like Hahn, etc. could speak at Calvin College to Protestants, instead of to Catholics who already agree with them? I wish the organization that sends them out would look into this.
 
Rattivore - Thank you for your gift of the priesthood to us and to God. May Jesus Christ be praised!

I’m kinda inclined to think that we will never be given this “error” nor the author of said “error’s” name nor work. I’m also inclined to think it doesn’t exist and is rather a figment of an imagination discolored by the green-eyed monster of jealousy that has moved on from just being jealous but is now mired in dis-crediting those whose contributions to the Church have out-numbered and out-shined the victim of said jealousy. But hey, that’s just my opinion. Perhaps if this victim gets themselves to make a good Confession, they might find their reading glasses a little clearer!

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

P.S. I’m predicting that this post will get one of two reactions based upon acceptance, either gritted teeth through which will be said “who do YOU think you are…” or …
 
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Cat:
reduced by potterygirl…
Most evangelical Christians will never touch a book by a Catholic saint, with the possible exceptions of St. Augustine (only to study the origins of Calvinism) and maybe Mother Teresa. They would feel that it was a waste of their time and possibly even an excursion into non-Scriptural cultism.
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My husband (a protestant) was talking about this today as I was sporting my new St. Christopher scapular/medal (not sure which it is really! LOL as I am still learning). He said his best friend’s mother (a very Southern Baptist woman) growing up saw his St. Christopher medal and grilled him over it. My husband said she went on and on about it being a “graven image”! My hubby said he couldn’t wear it around his friends house at all! Poor thing as it was a gift from his mom!
 
G. Frege said:
Well, neither Hahn nor Aquinas are infallible as far as that goes. Aquinas’s teachings in the Summa regarding the Immaculate Conception are incorrect. But, since he does not teach infallibly, I have no problem with that. I have no idea what supposed error in Hahn’s book you refer to, but his book does have both Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur so I do not have reservations about reading his book.
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Thanks, penitentman22 and sandyeggo, for your kind words to my post. We still wait with “baited breath” for G. Frege to post the supposed error. My guess is we will never see it; why? Because G. Frege knows he’s going to get blasted for HIS error and that Hahn was right all along. But, of course, that’s just my opinion: a self-learner! 😃

I’ve really enjoyed everyone’s responses - they’ve been thoughtful and well-reasoned. I wish this thread would get more “stars” - not for the original post, but for all the wonderful response posts! I’m going to vote right now for more stars! 👍

-JohnDeP.
 
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