Faith alone or not?

[guanophore]

I have justified bolded…There is NOTHING we do to earn our salvation…Being justified by faith is maturing in/with that gift of a new life with Christ…

Yes. The reason James writes that Abraham was justified by works, and not by faith alone, is that the Apostles did not separate the fruits of repentance from the grace that produces the saving faith from which they emanate. And when we engage, by grace,m through faith, in the works that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, we do mature, and our righteousness grows. We begin to become that righteousness of God in Christ that He purchased for us on the cross.

We can enhance our walk yearning to hear a "well done good and faithful servant but the salvic part is Christ's alone...The good works or lack of them has nothing to do with that free gift....Works or lack of them is topping on the dessert provided by the Lord...

While “topping” still falls short of the Apostolic message, at least it does recognize a legitimate place for us to work out our salvation. The Apostles taught that saving faith is NEVER alone, but that it is always accompanied by deeds that befit repentance.

Yes our works are tested and this has nothing to with salvation…This is just for those believing…I imagine is will be a sad disheartening time time for those who never sought to grow and mature in their walk with Christ…To just stand before Christ with a pile of ash…

Yes. Saved. but only as through fire.

I don’t really see this will be an ongoing event (ie varied times in purgatory for some) but a one time event…

True, but since it is outside the space/time continuum, we tend to project the limitations of our experience, which exist within that continuum.

What about living believers at the last trump, they will be lifted to Jesus in the clouds in a twinkling of an eye…Purgatory will have to be a very quick in that scenario.

I think it would be a mistake to think that those who are presently being purified are separated from Him. Although nothing unclean can enter heaven, the final cleansing is only afforded to those who are His. They can’t be MORE separated from His presence than we are now, trapped in our sinful bodies.

H even has a crown waiting for those looking for His return…As always these are non catholic thoughts…Check the scriptures for everything… Grace and peace to you…

You are mistaken, Hiskid. The NT is a Catholic book, and there is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Therefore, since these 'thoughts" are in the NT, they are, by definition, Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

We object when some try to say the works are “needed” to experience salvation…Works appear as we grow in our faith. Works open the door for rewards, but works in and of themselves have no salvic benefits…

Have you read the joint declaration?

I think that when Catholics say that saving faith is faith that works through love (reflects good deeds) we connect works and faith as inseparable parts of salvation by grace. The reason we see that works have salvific benefits is because we don’t truncate the message of salvation as the Reformers have done. The Apostles taught that salvation consisted of justification, sanctification, and glorification. Calvin in particular focused on only the initial justification as containing all of “salvation”. This is how the sanctification part of salvation became separated.

For a person who is in a state of grace, good works help to maintain him in that state. The also serve to benefit the Body of Christ to become that which He has called her to be. Good works contribute to the salvation of others, both inside and outside the Church. Good works (acts of love ) cover a multitude of sins. How can anyone say that covering sins is not salvific?

I think the problem is when people think those works are “of the flesh” rather than occurring “in the spirit”. Those who are in the flesh can do nothing to please God.

 

[twb1621]

In regard to Matthew CH25;

It does not apply to me. These are Gentiles living on the earth (mortals) at the time of Christ’s return to this earth in order to set up His Millennial Kingdom (on earth). I’m part of the church which was taken up to be with the Lord several years prior to this earthly event.

Wow. … where does scripture say only the gentiles will be judged or for that matter where does it say only certain groups will be judged either upon death or at the final judgment? Will you not be of the living or the dead? and how do you know this judgment will not take place during your human lifetime?

1 Corinthians CH4; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. …and you believe it does not apply to you and you are above the apostle Paul as well?
Luke CH22; 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. …and you believe it does not apply to you and you are above the chosen people of God as well?
2 Timothy CH4; 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: 2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. 3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers 4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.
James CH3; 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you realize that we will be judged more strictly… (Looks like even Christ’s servants of the church, His teachers, will be judged. But you believe you are above them also?
James CH2; 8 However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well…” (Matthew CH25 tells us how we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. But you say that doesn’t pertain to you still?)
“…9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. 13 For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. And this doesn’t pertain to you either?
Acts CH10; 42 He commissioned us to preach to the people and testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead. … This doesn’t pertain to you either?

 

[guanophore]

The fact that you added "maturing " shows that works are necessary along with faith. How does one mature if not by odedience which leads to righteousness?

True about obedience, but there are some who die in a state of grace that do not accomplish any good deeds, like those who perish immediately after baptism, the disabled, a person nailed to the cross next to Jesus. These people, if in a state of grace, don’t have the opportunity to mature in their faith

…Why is it necessary to "enchance " our walk if we are saved by faith alone?

Most of our separated brethren look at “justificaiton” as the sum total of salvation, where Catholics recieve the Apostolic Teaching that sanctification is also part of salvation.

Can one have faith, not keep the commandments and have eternal life? Yes or no.

In theory, those who are in a state of grace, but die immediately - a martyr, for example.

It is through our good works, done by God’s grace, that keep us children of God.

We are children of God by adoption. We don’t lose that status because of our works, or lack of them. We may be a rebellious, disobedient, and wayward child of God, but our status does not change.

Suffering in this life is part of our purification.The last Christians will have their purification on earth and will not need time in purgatory which ends at the second coming of Christ.

Amen to that! I think that one of the problems with Reformed theology is that it lacks the richness of meaning we can have in suffering.

There is no such thing as “jewels in the crown” in the sense that you have been taught. There is one reward that the saved will receive and that is eternal life.

I don’t think this perspective with the evidence of scripture. Jesus is quite clear that those who invest their talents will get more, and that we can store up treasures for ourselves in heaven.

“For he will render to every man according to his works…eternal life” Romans 2:6-7.

There will be those who will be "rewarded "with the gift of a fuller beatific vision of God. Those who were martyred for the faith, those who fed the poor and clothed the hungery like a Mother Teresa. Those who faithfully taught the true gospel and were an example of faith, hope and charity.

It would be inconsistent to think that there are not degrees of experience in the heavenly life.

You have probably been told that one cannot lose his salvation he can only lose his “rewards”. This false teaching comes from a mis-interpretation of 1 Cor 3 which is speaking of purgatory where we will “suffer loss” yet be saved “as through fire”

I agree. The other thought I had yesterday about this is that I have been told here by my separated brethren that this refers to “ministry” or works done for God - one who saves many souls as opposed to none. However, that is not consistent with the Apostolic faith, which does not distinguish “religious” from “secular” works. For the Christian, all of life is expressive of our being in a state of grace (or not). Our deeds are not sorted from God’s perspective into "how I served the Church on Sunday or Wed. bible study) and how I served (or failed to serve) the remainder of the week.

 

[guanophore]

You don’t think those who don’t mature much make it to heaven ?What work did the thief accomplish in his last minute conversion experience ?

You know, I was thinking about him too! History names him St. Dismas, or the “good thief”. What work did he do? The first and most important was the one we must all do, which is place faith in Christ. Jesus says this is the work we must be doing in order to be saved. This work is done in us by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves, lest any of us might boast.

However, that is not all. He also testified about Christ, and confronted the other man who was reviling Christ, defending our Lord with his last breath. He took responsibility for his wrongs - “we suffer justly according to our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong”. I also find it interesting that Jesus did not rescue him from this due punishment for his sins. Jesus promised Dismas paradise, but rather than taking him when he breathed his last, he left him there on the cross to suffer the rest of the day, and to have his legs broken. I think this was his purgatory. I am sure it seemed like work to him.

I know someone who just died of cancer and had a conversion experience a week before he died.... What about those who just have ash at their judgment ...Their still saved after the works are burned...Is that when they get sent to purgatory, after the works are tried.....

Good example of the one who gets paid the same denarius at the end of the day.

No, purgatory means “to purify with fire”. The works being burned IS purgatory. During purification with fire, the dross is burned away, and the gold remains. And it is not like they are “sent to purgatory”. It is not so much a place, as it is a state during which the soul is cleansed of anything impure, so that it can enter heaven.

Your saying that happens immediately after we each die and not at the judgment seat of Christ..What scripture tells it is separate from the judgment seat of Christ ?

We understand there is a personal judgement at death, and also the general judgement.

There is more to spiritual maturity than following His commandments...I know quite a few people over the years catholic and non catholics alike who are still not much mature than when they come to Christ....Not everyone is totally obedient to God's will..

I know them too. But can it really be said of them that they are keeping His commandments? How can one obey “love God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength” and not have a passion for God?

We walk in the flesh at times, some more so that others…Rewards are the benefit not the door we knock on to enter heaven…Behold I stand at the door and knocks,if anyone opens the door He will come in…Works are the byproduct to a new life in Christ by faith…

But that byproduct also produces more faith, more purity, and more obedience. It is in that sense that we consider them salvific.

.I just surmise we will be able to offer them to Him..Does your church tell you what we will do with them ?

Yes, we will cast them at His feet in adoration.

  I thought we all get all. that God has for us in heaven..

God did make us for heaven, but some will have a deeper experience I think.

I don't believe I know anyone who has walked away from a living faith they once had...I've been around people who have put their faith in Christ  only to put Him on  the back burner and ended up with some much trouble and frustration they put their focus back on the Lord...I know names can be blotted out..I thought about this many times and wonder if all who are born are written in then God brings opportunity's in our lives to accept or reject Him...

You mean, born again? We are all born into the world in a state of separation from Him.
We are not, by default in the Book of Life.

That why the god of this world keeps his hands busy seeking to steal kill and destroy those children…

Or prevent them from being adopted in the first place.

 

[twb1621]

.

*It does not apply to me. They tried to be accepted by their works and Jesus said, “I never knew you.” He’s not just my “Lord” but my Savior. He redeemed (purchased) me with His blood.

Wrong, you misunderstood the verse, read it again: Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven*, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven**… Only those who DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM. ….And you still think this doesn’t apply to you?*

*This one does apply to me. He said to believe in Him for eternal life - I did. I now possess eternal life.

Wrong; The only thing you are right about is it does pertain to you… your response; “He said to believe in Him for eternal life - I did. I now possess eternal life.” is not what this verse says at all… it says nothings at all related to your response. Read it again…
Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”** How do you listen to His Words and “ACT” on them? And you still think this doesn’t apply to you?**

*This does not apply to me. I accepted both Him and His words regarding believing

in Him for eternal life.Wrong; This is truly sad… so you will only go as far as to claim you believe in Him but you refuse to observe His Words and you think that is good enough? Read it again: …And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words (again, all words) has something to judge him the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me." And gow do you observe His Words? …………And you still do not think this applies to you?

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

.

*TWB, do you believe these words of Jesus?
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Yes, I understand they are as relevant as all the other words of Jesus. Do you understand they are all part of the same teaching? and do you understand what He is saying when He says; “hears my Word”…?

MD, do you believe in these additional words of Jesus? You said you do not as they do not apply to you… Try relating your verse to these other words of Jesus and tell me again how you hear His word as it is meant, that is accepting and living it. It is hypocritical to say you here His word but do nothing to live according to it or that living His word has nothing to do with salvation when all of scripture teaches that very law of mercy.

*Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. ……………*And you think this doesn’t apply to you?

*Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.” ………*And you think this doesn’t apply to you?

*John CH12; *47 And if anyone hears my words (means all words) and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words (again, all words) has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me." …………And you do not think this applies to you?

 

[mark_a]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

Good luck with all that. Its only been 493 years and counting.

I think it’s odd that the same God who would comdemn a no-works Catholic would also condemn a works-heavy Protestant.

Personally, I’d rather have a “saved by works” neighbor than a “saved by faith neighbor”.

 

[guanophore]

 Repentance is the key component in choosing to follow Christ and needed to maintain a healthy relationship with Him...

And this is part of how we see salvation, not as a one time for all event, but as an ongoing relationship in which we persevere. If one tastes of the heavenely gift, and is enlighted, but then falls from grace, one is not longer in a positive relationsihp with Christ, which is necessary to be saved.

 So basically in your perspective our works do get us to heaven because anything we

in positive in our walk is a work…Is this a normal catholic belief that repentance is a “good work”. The thief’s good work was “believing” ? Everything that is a tenet of faith is a good work, correct…No wonder you believe “works” save you…

Yes. But you see, it is “work” that is in us because of His grace, that we can only do by faith, not of ourselves, lest anyone can boast. It is a free gift, which we receive, unwrap, and use.

If all the basic tenets we do to chose to follow Christ is a good work then we are working our way to heaven…See where I am going here

No, because it is impossible for human beings to work their way to heaven. We can only come to heaven by grace, thorugh faith. It would be more accurate to say that heaven is working it’s way into us.

..Say we are going through a dark time in our soul...The heavens feel like brass...Were in a rut , not praying....We die that evening we're in danger of hell because we are not responding positive to His grace at any moment in time.

I think it would be a mistake to assume that people in a dark night don’t pray, or are not in a state of grace. Sometimes the dark night of the soul IS the result of responding to His grace. It is part of the necessary transformative purification for our soul.

What about Eph 2:8-9

1. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
   9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What works are they boasting about, their repentance?

The ones in v. 10. Keep reading one more! If I boast, I will boast in the Lord.

 I know a few people right now who are struggling with their faith one is a Catholic...Their doing all they can just to maintain their faith let alone caring /doing for others...

I think this could be an outgrowth of living in the flesh, not in the Spirit. I think a lot of Catholics have a deficient notion of grace.

I don't think anything I do earns me a spot in heaven...My faith in Christ puts me there....Now receiving rewards or lack of them at the judgment seat of Christ, now that's a different story...

It is very Catholic of you to day this.

 

[twb1621]

It does not apply to me.

**“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Gospel (Lk 18:9-14)

do you understand the difference between self-righteousness and humility…?
**Oh that’s right, you don’t believe in works of Charity and love as following the teachings of Christ… **

 

[Philthy]

Define “stumble.” Jesus said “If your right eye MAKES YOU STUMBLE, tear it out and throw it from you…” He said the same about the right hand, “makes you stumble.” According to Him the eyes and hands can make someone stumble, so they were to rid themselves of those “stumble” causing body parts.
So, do you do ALL that Jesus said to do?

Both your logic and your hypocrisy fail you on this one, friend.

• The fact that Christ says “If” does not actually mean that it is the eye which makes you stumble. That is your logical error.
• Where I see hypocrisy is that you reject the very same language from Matt 6:14: " If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you." Forgiving others is a clear condition set forth by Christ using the same “If” language as used above (that you claim indicates that the eye can cause sin). Yet you reject the notion that forgiveness is - or even can be - conditioned upon forgiving sin, despite the fact that Christ uses exactly the same language: If you forgive others you will be forgiven. It is logically inconsistent and hypocritical. From experience I expect you will undoubtedly return to your mantra that salvation (which, of course requires the forgiveness of sins) is by faith alone and therefore cannot require as a condition a volitional act such as forgiving another, otherwise it wouldnt be by faith alone. That point, however, rather than justifying your position, simply the begs the questions - Is salvation by faith alone? And if so, what is meant by faith? Christs clear words regarding forgiving others must be reconciled with the rest of the Gospel, not ignored as being irrelevant - which is the practical effect of your position. The logical, critical, biblical and historical result is to conclude that salvation is not by faith alone, or that forgiving others is, in fact, part of what it means to have faith. Either way your position becomes untenable unless, of course, you start eliminating parts of the Gospel as not applying to you. That position is, of course, unbiblical and impossibly subjective.

Blessings!

 

[moondweller]

The fact that Christ says “If” does not actually mean that it is the eye which makes you stumble.

This is totally nonsensical. If He didn’t mean the eye then why did He say pluck it out?

Paul says “If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart…”, but that does not mean that one will do those things or that because it is possible it is simultaneously necessary that it happen. That is your logical error.

I don’t understand your position:Rom 10:8-10 "But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.The one who believes with his heart confesses with his mouth. It’s all faith alone, Phil.

Where I see hypocrisy is that you reject the very same language from Matt 6:14: If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you." Forgiving others is a clear condition set forth by Christ using the same “If” language as used above (that you claim indicates that the eye can cause sin). Yet you reject the notion that forgiveness is - or even can be - conditioned upon forgiving sin, despite the fact that Christ uses exactly the same language: If you forgive others you will be forgiven.

This is not the gospel. The Apostles who were entrusted with the gospel of God’s grace through faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ preached the following in respect to sins:Peter:

Acts 10:43 "“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Paul:

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 “in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

John:

1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."The Apostles did not attach an “if you” condition to their doctrine of forgiveness of sins. Theirs was a proclamation of forgiveness through faith in Christ who bore them ALL on the cross and died TO them, once for all.

It is logically inconsistent and hypocritical. From experience I expect you will undoubtedly return to your mantra that salvation (which, of course requires the forgiveness of sins) is by faith alone and therefore cannot require as a condition a volitional act such as forgiving another, otherwise it wouldnt be by faith alone.

Actually, otherwise it wouldn’t be Apostolic. The Apostles emphatically taught that the believer’s sins, through faith in Christ, “have been forgiven.” They didn’t teach the church what we call “The Lord’s Prayer.” That prayer is not addressed to Christ’s church, which He is presently building (during this church age) through the Holy Spirit, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles through faith in Him.

That point, however, rather than justifying your position, simply begs the questions - Is salvation by faith alone? And if so, what is meant by faith?

No, the question should be “why faith alone?” It’s a far better question with a far more insightful, Christ glorifying, answer.

Christs clear words regarding forgiving others must be reconciled with the rest of the Gospel,

It cannot be reconciled with the gospel (good news) Christ entrusted to His Apostles. Their “gospel” message had to do with what Christ accomplished, once for all, on the cross. The condition expressed in that prayer regarding forgiveness of sins does not apply to the believer “under grace” and who, being now in Christ, “has redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Jesus didn’t preach the gospel of grace. It was not preached until AFTER His substitutionary, sacrificial death on the cross, when all our sins were imputed to Him - and He died TO them, once for all. Men are now asked to believe it. And upon belief they’re “gifted” salvation (Eph. 2:8-9); justification (Rom. 3:24); and eternal life (Rom. 6:23) - by His GRACE through faith alone - according to the Scriptures…

 

[bona_fides_1]

Rom 10:8-10 "But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.The one who believes with his heart confesses with his mouth. It’s all faith alone, Phil.

You can’t slice and dice scripture like you do MD. The entire book must be read as if a single spoken full text. What you are doing is like interrupting the speaker (God) in mid sentence and hearing only what you want to hear.

When you say “by faith alone” you are really telling people “have faith in my interpretation of scripture that it tells you ‘by faith alone’ THEN have faith in Christ.” You are simply trying to replace the apostolic teaching tradition and the church with yourself. That’s faith in yourself – which we all know is fallable and according to reformer theology you are totally depraved too. How does anyone know you have escaped your own depravity in your read of scripture? Do you think salvation is a matter of salesmanship?

BTW - how does a person who can’t speak due to a verbal defect (stroke, birth defect etc.) confess Jesus is Lord gain salvation? Kiss the Lord to acknowledge His Lordship? Are these that can’t speak predestined to hell?

Are you going to remain chauvinistically committed to your literal read or are you at some point going to start being reasonable?

Ironic that Judas betrayed the Lord with a kiss…

BF

 

[guanophore]

**Oh that’s right, you don’t believe in works of Charity and love as following the teachings of Christ… **

I don’t think this is fair to Moondweller. He clearly is very sincere about this faith, and has been consistently advocating works of charity and love as following the teachings of Christ. He just does not think they have anything to do with his salvation.

This is the position of all faithful followers of Calvin. They believe that they produce good fruit because of who they are in Christ, and that their faith is a living and active expression of the gospel message.

 

[Philthy]

The one who believes with his heart confesses with his mouth. It’s all faith alone, Phil.

I dont disagree. Believing is faith, acting on that belief and confessing with ones mouth is also faith. It’s you who starts drawing lines on what is and what is not faith.

This is not the gospel.

Uhhh, yes it is - its called the Gospel of Matthew.

The Apostles who were entrusted with the gospel of God’s grace through faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ preached the following in respect to sins:Peter: Acts 10:43 "“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Believes in Him? What does that mean, exactly? Does it mean to believe he existed, he was a prophet, he was God, believe all that he taught? If the latter is included in “believes in Him”, then his teaching in Matt 6 is included.

Paul: Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."John: John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”

All forgiveness of sin is through Him - including that forgiveness that follows forgiving others. Did you think the forgiveness we receive in forgiving others was a debt God owed us or something?

The Apostles did not attach an “if you” condition to their doctrine of forgiveness of sins.

John did: 1John1:9 If you confess your sins He is faithful and just and will forgive your sins…"

Theirs was a proclamation of forgiveness through faith in Christ who bore them ALL on the cross and died TO them, once for all.Actually, otherwise it wouldn’t be Apostolic. The Apostles emphatically taught that the believer’s sins, through faith in Christ, “have been forgiven.”

This is your technique of taking your erroneous theology as the standard through which Scripture and reality must pass; examining what conforms; discarding that which doesnt conform, and expecting the rest of us to accept it. Your definition of faith remains deficient and the fact that you have to discard portions of the NT as irrelevant or as not applying to you, confirms this.

They didn’t teach the church what we call “The Lord’s Prayer.” That prayer is not addressed to Christ’s church, which He is presently building (during this church age) through the Holy Spirit, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles through faith in Him.

MD - how can you say such silly things? Christ himself taught that prayer to his apostles who taught it to the church through their inspired NT Scripture. It matters not how Christ is building his church, when he is building it and from whom it is being called. Christ taught it to the first members of the church and they taught it to all subsequent members and it continues today and until the end of time.

The condition expressed in that prayer regarding forgiveness of sins does not apply to the believer “under grace” and who, being now in Christ, “has redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

Well that is your opinion - again based on your process of cramming everything through an erroneous theology and fabricating excuses as to why things “do and do not apply to believers”, but nowhere does Christ ever make such a claim, nowhere do his Apostles make such a claim, no where does the early Church make such a claim, and quite frankly most Sola Scriptura adherents would disagree you. I stand with them in disagreeing with you.

Jesus didn’t preach the gospel of grace.

Does that mean he preached things contrary to it?? Or merely that he left out details? And in claiming that he didnt preach the gospel of grace, did he not preach Truth nonetheless? Your point is a non-point which you use as to justify ignoring very clear statements from Christ which rock your theological boat.

It was not preached until AFTER His substitutionary, sacrificial death on the cross, when all our sins were imputed to Him - and He died TO them, once for all. Men are now asked to believe it. And upon belief they’re “gifted” salvation (Eph. 2:8-9); justification (Rom. 3:24); and eternal life (Rom. 6:23) - by His GRACE through faith alone - according to the Scriptures…

I actually dont disagree with what youve said. We part ways when you start assuming that those gifts mean one has an irrevocable inheritance in the kingdom of God, which is Heaven. Its awesome to be saved, but thats no comparison to being saved AND going to Heaven. The NT record is abundantly clear on that distinction, as has been pointed out, in Eph 5:5, Gal 5:20, 1Cor 6:9 and plenty of other places. The funny thing is that when I draw this distinction between being “saved” and “inheriting the kingdom of God” guess where you run to justify your position? To Jesus - the same one who you claimed doesnt preach the gospel of grace - in the gospel of John. That, Im afraid, is just plain silly. It leaves us in the impossibly complicated position of “rightly dividing” when Jesus’ words apply to us and when they do not without an infallible Scriptural mandate or authority for doing so.

Blessings!

 

[twb1621]

I don’t think this is fair to Moondweller. He clearly is very sincere about this faith, and has been consistently advocating works of charity and love as following the teachings of Christ. He just does not think they have anything to do with his salvation.

This is the position of all faithful followers of Calvin. They believe that they produce good fruit because of who they are in Christ, and that their faith is a living and active expression of the gospel message.

Previously I responded to MD in regard to his accusation that we as Catholics believe “works” are necessary for our salvation, which I am sure you know where that comes from. I provided him an explanation and defined the differences in “works” and there purpose in previous posts that he rejects or ignores along with many verses proving his beliefs in opposition to scripture. If what you say is true of MD, he certainly has not acknowledged his works are no different than ours in relation to each other regardless of our personal determination of self righteousness or humility, which was the purpose of my comment.

I respect your gift in your manner of communicating and your knowledge with which you relate. Mine is not without purpose but not of the same form as yours. I understand and appreciate what you are saying, but as long as he denies (even to himself) all that is presented to him, he will never get beyond his wall if it is a possibility at all. So far, based on his belief of what does not apply to him, he disregards the majority of scripture as irrelevant. That is beyond sad for what he is missing in knowing our Savior. I wonder how many other forms of education he may have taken part in where the teacher instructed the class they are free to determine what of the subject matter is relevant to comprehend personally and what they may choose to disregard. In reality I am sure he is educated beyond believing such is the case, yet in the case of the teachings of Christ, to those of these beliefs, they rationalize it to themselves.

Jesus is after all, the Rabbi, the Prophet the Teacher.

 

[Philthy]

This is totally nonsensical. If He didn’t mean the eye then why did He say pluck it out?

Im sorry I forgot to address this - I thought I already had, but I see you are adamant in ignoring what appears obvious to me…I’ll try to be more thorough.
He was using hyperbole to get their attention and to convey just how important sin is. In their world a sound body was a blessing and an infirmity such as blindness was a curse or punishment for sin - either of their own sin or that of a relative (cf John 9:1-3). Here Christ simultaneously grabs their attention and tells them that sin is so disastrous that it is better to be maimed (considered a curse) than to commit sin. The fact remains, however, that eyes dont cause sin - the heart does. He went on to explain this as well in the context of the question of the ritual of washing one’s hands before eating…I suggest you listen carefully: The Gospel of Matthew starting at 15:18 “But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man;…”

Notice carefully that adultery, which Christ himself revealed as one who “even looks at a woman with lust” is guilty of committing, comes from the heart - not the eye that we look with. Your position is a bust, MD. Sin comes from the heart, not the eye or the hand or anywhere else.

Blessings!

 

[guanophore]

 If what you say is true of MD, he certainly has not acknowledged his works are no different than ours in relation to each other regardless of our personal determination of self righteousness or humility, which was the purpose of my comment.

I agree, he does not see that his works are no different than ours. He does not see that we, too, have died, and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. Therefore, the life we live is no longer our own, but that He is at work in us.

   I understand and appreciate what you are saying, but as long as he denies (even to himself) all that is presented to him, he will never get beyond his wall if it is a possibility at all. So far, based on his belief of what does not apply to him, he disregards the majority of scripture as irrelevant. That is beyond sad for what he is missing in knowing our Savior. I wonder how many other forms of education he may have taken part in where the teacher instructed the class they are free to determine what of the subject matter is relevant to comprehend personally and what they may choose to disregard. In reality I am sure he is educated beyond believing such is the case, yet in the case of the teachings of Christ, to those of these beliefs, they rationalize it to themselves.

You are right, of course. But, you have to realize that it is very difficult to change when you see yourself as already perfect.

Last year I truly began to wonder if he was suffering from some sort of megalomania or something. We were involved in a purgatory discussion, and he posted that he is fully identified with the risen Christ.

Since his perception of himself is identical with his “position” in the risen Christ, it is really not necessary for him to learn or change anything. He has already arrived.

 

[guanophore]

Im sorry I forgot to address this - I thought I already had, but I see you are adamant in ignoring what appears obvious to me…I’ll try to be more thorough.
He was using hyperbole to get their attention and to convey just how important sin is. In their world a sound body was a blessing and an infirmity such as blindness was a curse or punishment for sin - either of their own sin or that of a relative (cf John 9:1-3). Here Christ simultaneously grabs their attention and tells them that sin is so disastrous that it is better to be maimed (considered a curse) than to commit sin. The fact remains, however, that eyes dont cause sin - the heart does. He went on to explain this as well in the context of the question of the ritual of washing one’s hands before eating…I suggest you listen carefully: The Gospel of Matthew starting at 15:18 “But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man;…”

Notice carefully that adultery, which Christ himself revealed as one who “even looks at a woman with lust” is guilty of committing, comes from the heart - not the eye that we look with. Your position is a bust, MD. Sin comes from the heart, not the eye or the hand or anywhere else.

Blessings!

Well done! :clapping:

Unfortunately, Moon will find all this irrelevant, just as all the other moral teachings of Jesus. They are irrelevant because of of the P in the TULIP he has espoused (also not found in Scripture) and no matter how evil his heart may be, or whatever sins he may commit, he is saved eternally.

 

[paul_c]

Well done! :clapping:

Unfortunately, Moon will find all this irrelevant, just as all the other moral teachings of Jesus. They are irrelevant because of of the P in the TULIP he has espoused (also not found in Scripture) and no matter how evil his heart may be, or whatever sins he may commit, he is saved eternally.

You know, one of the great unanswered questions that perhpas our firend Moondweller could answer is why he spends so much time on CAF.

After all, in his theology, all you need is belief to be saved once and forever and that’s by grace. So nothing he will do will help in either his salvation or in someone elses. So what is the point of all this evangelizing. And the Catholics he speaks to here are all believers, so they are already saved, right?