Faith alone or not?

[Tomster]

Actually, I am starting to believe that the OSAS “just believe” crowd are all just an outflow of a brilliant Jesuit “fight fire with fire” plot. That must be it. How brilliant to turn Protestantism against itself by no longer warning them that they are bringing destruction down on themselves for self interpreting scripture. Why bother burning millions at the stake anymore? Those Jesuit’s knew that nature would solve this problem. It was inevitable that a new spoiler sect would spring forth from the loins of Protestantism that would then seek to devour its mother. OSAS taken together with sola sciptura is exactly the frictional sticks needed to spark & utterly burn out the wild tare of Protestantism forever.

Just as soon as this wild OSAS mutant seed works its way into all the old school Protestant denominations like Episcopals, Anglican, Lutherans etc. they are suddenly going to make the connection that Church going and preaching are utterly obsolete. It will be:

*“Why go to church and listen to a preacher tell us the same old stuff when we are all saved already? Why pay tithes? Why buy all the rapture CDs and books? Why pray? Why marry? Why even resist sins of the flesh since its all Jesus’ responsibility to get us to heaven and I can’t fall from grace no more?” *

The harder Protestantism works to avoid the appearances of works - the quicker it falls victim to its own success. It just cant’ scale.

So, I really do think that Protestantism is in its last death throws. It has reached the pinnacle of irrational-ism and must soon start laughing at itself just to keep its sanity. There’ s no one at the tiller. Gads! Their ship has no tiller! It’s every man pulling with an oar - strongest pull in the direction they want to go. How novel - harnessing a phalanx of rowers and using the borg collective to steer by majority rule! We must pray that some won’t go the next step and cave all the way into despair and go over the falls. Pray that some instead will come to their senses, unshackle themselves from the slavery of irrationality and jump ship to swim back to the Catholic Church - the Rock of Faith and refuge that God has given humanity.

I am starting to see how America as a nation was being self deceived by Protestant illusions from the very beginning of its formation. Protestants have imagined that they are the new “rock” and the new church - going so far as to color our secular public school history books with PR spin to steal/hijack their own original Catholic identity and imagery. Protestants seem to like the Catholic idea of: "A chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God". But their closest idea of a priesthood is to equip everyone with a bible and make everyone their own pope. Rite and liturgy have been replaced with the motions of secular-patriotism (no church - just meet at the ballgame stadium, team caps off, hand over heart to sing and pledge patriotism “one pluralistic potpourri under God” - give us Spartacus and may the best team win!). They tried to reform The Church along patriotic/nationalistic lines but they bumped up against competing ideals about freedom from the neo-pagans/hedonists and the secularists - “give us license without moral restraint”. Then the spoilers and opportunists came. Men like Joseph Smith saw the absurdity of a pluralistic religion and tried to re aggregate. His was a vision for power and a new national religion of “one new Israel” (Catholicism revisited but with Smith as a secular pope with all new privately revealed dogmas - Mohammad had a few good pattern that Smith could borrow from).

So here we all huddle under a tattered “big tent”, flea-market sort of Christianity. Each person can shop around for whatever suits self. Rather than a nation built on the single rock of faith we plant our feet in a gravel pit of chips taken off the old block (of Peter) in a smorgasbord of denominations. But irrespective of an illusion of democracy with no real free choices anarchy/mob-rule without a guiding moral principal just never scales well. Eventually it must turn on itself or create a privileged class (“the gullible surfs” and “the secular ruling elite”?) or suffer being over run by foreigners. It’s up to us Catholics to wake people up and start building the church back up from the largest fallen chips salvaged from the rubble and re-mortared into the church walls.

It comes down to this for America - everyone getting a small piece of Plymouth Rock through the self-wrecking ball of Protestantism or standing clear and getting the whole mountain of faith from The Church Christ establised on the Rock of Peter.

MD has loaded his slingshot with a convenient pebble taken from the dry brook of personal ideas and now seeks to slay giants. Personally I think he’s spinning out of control and is about to brain himself…

BF

Yowser, yowser, yowser. Great analysis. Can I e-mail this Glen Beck? (just kidding)

 

[Tomster]

It does not apply to me. These are Gentiles living on the earth (mortals) at the time of Christ’s return to this earth in order to set up His Millennial Kingdom (on earth). I’m part of the church which was taken up to be with the Lord several years prior to this earthly event.

“I am part of the church which WAS [Emph. Mine] taken up to be with the Lord several years prior to this earthly event.” - Moondweller

Are you kidding us or what? Since you have taken the name “Moondweller” are all of the rest of you in some kind of “holding pen” on the moon until further notice?

You need help and I mean big time.

 

[Tomster]

MD, I want to give you some quotes from the Early Church Fathers that contradict your personal theology. Ignatius was a bishop born around 50 AD. We believe him to be a disciple of the apostle John. He advises Catholics not to have anything to do with heretics but to pray for their repentance since it will be very hard for them to convert to the truth. He clearly warns that those who do not believe in the Eucharist and prayer (men like you) are in grave danger of incurring death through the factions and confusion they sow.

MD, you need to start reading scripture from a context of apostolic history and understand what real early Christians believed and did. Everyone in the early church except pockets of heretics believed in the sacredness of the Eucharist and in the authority of the Catholic bishops. We have their writings - these are first generational disciples after the apostles. How can you dare hold your own teachings over the ECF teachings from a calendar distance of 2,000 years??? You have absolutely no historical context or legacy to draw on. The apostles and the ECF were all Catholics and friends of ours - our family. They taught us a handed down teaching. Who taught you and why did you listen to them over the true disciples of Christ - the apostolic successors of the apostles - the Catholic Church?

BF

Been there, done that! His only reply was silence.

 

[catholictiger]

anyone read the general audicne i posted from the pope about st pauls view on the justification of works to faith.

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love

First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Hmm, MD seems to have gone missing…

Moondweller where did you go bro? We are waiting for some answers…

Moon? Yoohoo…

Hmm, I only hear crickets in here now. Maybe Moonie went back home…

Moon with cricket noises…

BF

 

[paul_c]

Hmm, MD seems to have gone missing…

Moondweller where did you go bro? We are waiting for some answers…

Moon? Yoohoo…

Hmm, I only hear crickets in here now. Maybe Moonie went back home…

Moon with cricket noises…

BF

Patience. it was labor day weekend in the states. Perhaps he went on vacation… And if he did, he certainly had a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Philthy]

I think this malady is getting more and more common. I wonder what the preacher talks about on Sundays? Do you think it is the same salvation message he parrots here? Is there any point to learning to live the Christian life? I have to admit, I am mystified how one learns about sanctification when the Teachings of Jesus “do not apply”.

Unfortunately I am very familiar with what the preachers of OSAS mostly talk about on Sundays…I attend a non-denom church every other week. It is extraordinarily repetitive and the focus is on conversion. There is very little depth to the discussion (although that probably has more to do with the particular pastor) and the entirety of the Gospels and epistles are not even remotely covered. There is no rhythm to the year and we just bounce from one 'inspiration" to another…

 

[clmowry]

Unfortunately I am very familiar with what the preachers of OSAS mostly talk about on Sundays…I attend a non-denom church every other week. It is extraordinarily repetitive and the focus is on conversion. There is very little depth to the discussion (although that probably has more to do with the particular pastor) and the entirety of the Gospels and epistles are not even remotely covered. There is no rhythm to the year and we just bounce from one 'inspiration" to another…

This was my wife’s view of the local Baptist church she was baptized in in KY.

Every week was an appeal to be “saved.” Problem was once she answered the call and was baptized, the message next week was a an appeal to be “saved”.

She kept waiting for the “what next” and there was no “next”.

The job was complete and in short order she drifted back into religious indifference.

Chuck

 

[placido]

Hmm, MD seems to have gone missing…

Moondweller where did you go bro? We are waiting for some answers…

Moon? Yoohoo…

Whenever there is a question Moondweller can’t answer he simply disappears for a while hoping that when he reappears a few days later the question would be forgotten and he can simply continue from there. That has always been his modus operandi.

placido

 

[twb1621]

Where does Jesus say “obey ALL that I have SAID and you will have eternal life?” And where did I say that I believe that belief in Christ is divorced from loving Christ?

However, can an unbeliever (unsaved) truly love Christ? How can loving Christ be a “necessity” for salvation? Loving Him is a fruit of salvation (especially regeneration), not a cause of it. You’ve sort of got the cart before the horse there, buddy.

Matthew CH28; 16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Anyone who teaches you that you do not have to observe all His teachings is teaching you falsely according to Christ’s command.

Philippians CH3; 17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us. (note: Who is “us”? the apostles and subsequently their successors who possess the lineage in teachings).

Hebrews CH5; 9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, 10 declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Luke CH11; 28 He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

1Peter CH4; 17 For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, how will it end for those who fail to obey the gospel of God?

Hebrews CH13; 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have; God is pleased by sacrifices of that kind. 17 Obey your leaders and defer to them (unless they are teaching you distortions to Christ’s true Gospel), for they keep watch over you (note: this doesn’t work well with at all with what you follow or have been led to believe) and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Acts CH5; 32 We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him."

Philippians CH2; 12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Acts CH6; 7 The word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly; even a large group of priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

1 Peter CH1; 2 …in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance. …22 Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart.

Romans CH6; 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I could go on but it seems enough to show all His teachings pertain to everyone and no one is exempt from being obedient to any.

You have to ask yourself what is it you must observe, obey, become obedient to, if all you are obligated to do for salvation is have faith… Claiming faith does not fulfill obedience as one can not just obediently claim to have faith and have it by the claim. So it is not faith that is spoken of but all the teachings of Christ as we are instructed to live in humility and charity as Matthew CH28 v20 declares. You can not say certain parts of the Gospel do not pertain to you as they refer to the gentiles because the apostles speak to the faithful in the body of Christ which consists of Jew and Gentile all once baptized are children of God as you are.

Therefore the teachings are for all those who accept Christ, there is no distinction and that is also in scripture. Obviously what the apostles taught and that which has been handed down through the Church Jesus founded is not what you have been taught or what you have adopted. Unless you can prove otherwise. Read the apostolic Fathers who were direct successors and students of the apostles. One thing they attest to are the teachings of Christ in Scripture.

 

[Philthy]

This was my wife’s view of the local Baptist church she was baptized in in KY.

Every week was an appeal to be “saved.” Problem was once she answered the call and was baptized, the message next week was a an appeal to be “saved”.

She kept waiting for the “what next” and there was no “next”.

The job was complete and in short order she drifted back into religious indifference.

Chuck

Theres a convert to the faith called the “donut man” (he has some great dvd’s for kids).
I talked to him about his journey from Protestantism…he described his experience of several of the worship forms he was exposed to as “a mile wide and an inch deep”. I think that echos your wife’s experience…“there was no next”.

It seems this party is over…

 

[placido]

Matthew CH28; 16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

When Moondweller reads Matthew 28:19-20 he sees something like, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you ** but please note that this has nothing to do with their salvation”. **

placido

 

[Pitcharan]

…You have to ask yourself what is it you must observe, obey, become obedient to, if all you are obligated to do for salvation is have faith… Claiming faith does not fulfill obedience as one can not just obediently claim to have faith and have it by the claim. So it is not faith that is spoken of but all the teachings of Christ as we are instructed to live in humility and charity as Matthew CH28 v20 declares. …

Therefore the teachings are for all those who accept Christ, there is no distinction and that is also in scripture. …

REPEATING MY POST #172
This thread will go in circles and even digress into Protestant Vs Catholic debate without clearing our confusion. It can be cleared ONLY by defining FAITH. Consider this definition and tell me if: (i) you agree with this definition, and (ii) it clears our confusion?

Faith* is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; this vision is a reward of good works done out of love (including obedience, compassion, gratitude, humility, generosity, …)

****When Faith involves a long wait, it is called Hope ***

 

[twb1621]

When Moondweller reads Matthew 28:19-20 he sees something like, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you **but please note that this has nothing to do with their salvation”. **

placido

That is perhaps what he would like it to say but if he is going to contend Jesus meant for us literally to pluck out an eye if it “makes” us sin, he would be intentionally hypocritical to suggest anything but the Word as it reads means anything else or to add his own unspoken spin to it. He hasn’t been responding to the majority of scripture making it obvious he disregards most scripture as irrelevant to him. He has been sadly misdirected and assumes Jesus went through the torture and death He went through for so little in return… Claim faith, be saved.

 

[twb1621]

REPEATING MY POST #172

This thread will go in circles and even digress into Protestant Vs Catholic debate without clearing our confusion. It can be cleared ONLY by defining FAITH. Consider this definition and tell me if: (i) you agree with this definition, and (ii) it clears our confusion?

Faith******* is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; this vision is a reward of good works done out of love (including obedience, compassion, gratitude, humility, generosity, …)

****When Faith involves a long wait, it is called Hope ***

boy needs serious guidence… he’s got the ball but running to the wrong end of the field… uch:

 

[Pitcharan]

boy needs serious guidence… he’s got the ball but running to the wrong end of the field… uch:

If you are going to be figurative, then I am going to be silent

 

[bona_fides_1]

REPEATING MY POST #172
This thread will go in circles and even digress into Protestant Vs Catholic debate without clearing our confusion. It can be cleared ONLY by defining FAITH. Consider this definition and tell me if: (i) you agree with this definition, and (ii) it clears our confusion?

Faith* is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; this vision is a reward of good works done out of love (including obedience, compassion, gratitude, humility, generosity, …)

****When Faith involves a long wait, it is called Hope ***

MD is much too clever to permit himself to be locked down to word meanings. That would violate a core element of his sola scriptura religious belief and corral his free license to interpret as he sees fit and discard scripture that “is not applicable” to him. I can guarantee you he would say something like “but you Catholics just try to make faith a work”. And then we go circular again since we say “but isn’t that exactly what God said it was” as we point him to John 6:29.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Then MD says “but I do believe so my work is done” then he keeps spamming his circular theology ad infinitum here at CAF to try to evangelize people into his private heresy.

In the old days it was easier. At this point St. Paul would just curse the heretics (per Gal 1.9) or banish them from the community (1 Cor 5). Who came up with the bright idea of trying to strike a spark of reason in an empty space deprived of any oxygen or fuel to set it all alight? OSAS once inhaled is like a person in a burning room taking-in an addictive form of halon. Push the big red button to be saved from fire and instantly the halon gas is released to displace oxygen and the deadly flames subside. To anyone so foolish to stand there to make sure it works there is an induced feeling of salvific euphoria as the respiratory rate races to compensate for lack of room oxygen. You see, its not idiot proof as there’s no way to affix a warning label to vapor when the lights go off. The assumption is that common sense directs one being saved to leave danger to seek fresh-air before one passes out from asphyxiation and goes completely brain dead; before all the lights go out as both flame and would-be-saved die of asphyxiation.

To the google search cloud this discussion probably looks like a fire-fly fest in a dark cave - sparks of insight but no enough dry kindling to ignite anything substantial.

Many conservative Protestants are fed up with the OSAS crowd too. Listen to Paul Washer flame fellow Protestant Joel Olsteen and the conservative-evangelical/baptist preachings, His assertion is:

False Teachers are God’s Judgement on those who don’t really want God but in the name of religion want all they can get in the here and now.

He sounds sincere in his scathing critique of the popular neo-Christian attitude of what I call the “Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die but we are saved” mentality. Of course Washer teaches his own particular (“Gospel” based) variation of Assurance of Salvation and exempts himself from being an instrument of God’s judgement. He does get it right that salvation is a supernatural work of God and not simply an altar call or profession of faith but of course is still blind to the fact that outside of the Catholic Church there is a substantial risk of falling away and losing one’s salvation.

Joel Osteen, it’s just the Truth - Paul Washer

BF

 

[clmowry]

Pretty much the problem on all threads:

One guys says “Faith” and means “to believe something to be true.”

Another says “Faith” and means “Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God.”

Chuck

REPEATING MY POST #172

This thread will go in circles and even digress into Protestant Vs Catholic debate without clearing our confusion. It can be cleared ONLY by defining FAITH. Consider this definition and tell me if: (i) you agree with this definition, and (ii) it clears our confusion?

Faith******* is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; this vision is a reward of good works done out of love (including obedience, compassion, gratitude, humility, generosity, …)

****When Faith involves a long wait, it is called Hope ***

 

[twb1621]

If you are going to be figurative, then I am going to be silent

then perhaps this would be more direct for MD…

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Then again…

 

[SacredHeart1987]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

Sixth Session of the Council of Trent: Justification

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathama

So right off the bat the lie made by protestants that Catholics are saved by works is condemned by the Council of Trent. God looks at our faith through his eyes of grace and this is exactly how God looks at our works. Through his eyes of grace. What we don’t know is if we will remain faithful to God or commit sin that God detests. Also, as far as James 2 goes, works do not automatically flow when we have the faith as some protestants would have you believe. It takes our effort. I don’t even bother discussing Catholic theology anymore with protestants because its pointless. All they do is repeat the same anti-Catholic garbage over and over again even when they’ve been refuted. Its like talking to the wall.