Faith alone or not?

[yankee_drifter]

Why do folks always want to blame Paul for THEIR interpretation of scripture?

Galations 5:6 “6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

Hmmm…doesn’t look anything like “faith alone” to me.

Neither does:

1 Corinthians 13:2 “2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.”

Paul seems to think what we do matters:

---

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 *“*9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Ephesians 5:5-6 “5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy** person**, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.”

Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I don’t see anything even close to “If you believe in Christ what you do doesn’t matter” in Paul’s writings.

Chuck

I never said what you do doesn’t matter. The bible says you must be born again. This we must do. Otherwise everything else we do is in vain.

 

[clmowry]

I never said what you do doesn’t matter. The bible says you must be born again. This we must do. Otherwise everything else we do is in vain.

Yep. This is fully in line with Catholic teaching and I don’t disagree with this at all.

So why the insistence on calling this “faith alone” when it clearly is not faith independent of what we do?

Chuck

 

[GreggAlvarez]

The apostle Paul is not talking out of both corners of his mouth. He clearly said in Eph. 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace, and not of works. Yes, verse. 10 says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, but we do those works because we are already in Christ Jesus. We have already been declared righteous. We are already saved and have our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life. These good works do not apply to the unsaved. Those who do not know Christ as their personal Savior. Those who are not born again.

Those who believe we are still under the law are cursed according to Paul. Works based religion is a religion that does not believe Christ atoned for all sin. They believe they must help Christ. That His sin ransom was not complete. The bottom line is that they do not trust Christ alone for their eternal salvation. They are trusting in their church and church rituals and other “works.” This is what separates the catholic from the Bible believing Christian.

I really do not get it. Where the Catholic Church is literal, Protestants read non-literal and vice-versa. We only agree in certain things. But the Catholic Church teaches that 1000 years in Revelations is probably not literal (in accord with 1000 years is like a day and a day is like a 1000 years) but Protestants say Rapture and stuff. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is literal with “This is my body… This is my blood…” but Protestants say Jesus did not mean it literally. In Ephesians 2:10, it says we are made through Christ FOR good works and the Catholic Church takes it literally BUT the Protestants say it is not literal. They read into it instead of out of it and make it against Church teaching. Nowhere does it remotely say what you claim it to mean.

And the Catholic Church is NOT a works-based religion. Your rigorous studies of our teachings are not very fruitful. You are VERY mistaken on the Church and its teaching. We lift our hearts to the Lord. You all lift your minds to make insults to the Church. We give Him thanks and praise. You all pray that Catholics can again become Christians. We wrote the Bible and housed it in the Church. You all took the Bible, subtracted from it and used it against the Church. We call ourselves all sinners. You all call yourselves saints. We call Church the pillar and bulwark of the Truth. You all call it the Whore of Babylon. We believe (transcending all knowledge) the Pope is our Holy Father. You call him the Anti-Christ. We say Mary is Mother of God. You all say she is only the Mother of Jesus, the Man. We say He was literal in meaning, “This is my Body.” You all say He meant to add, “Wait! Do not leave! I only meant it symbolically!” We submit to the authority given as a gift from God to the Church. You submit to the authority of your local preacher. We say, “If God can create a universe through a Word, He can certainly do anything.” You all limit His omnipotence to miracles of seeing Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich. We say God gave the Church authority. You all say He cannot do that. We say God can make eternal Jesus’ Death, Resurrection and Ascension in the miracle of the Eucharist at the Mass. You all say He cannot do that. We believe God can use the nature He created as useful to the attainment of holiness within His people. You all say that His nature can do nothing for us. We read out of the Bible. You all read into it. We say God and His Friends (Mary, Queen of Heaven, angels, saints and martyrs) are there for us and with us. You all say God locks up the inhabitants in a vault until the Second Coming. We pray for the salvation of all people, Christians and non-Christians alike. You all pray that all non-Christians (including Catholics) go to hell.

It is not fun when I critique an entire population off of what I have observed in my Protestant brethren and what other Catholics claim to have observed or read. I do not think all this is true for most of them. I have just observed it as a former atheist and notice it even more as a Catholic, obviously. The difference between me and you is that I know I am wrong with these statements and you think you are right with yours. We do trust in God alone which is contrary to your cross-analysis of us. We only trust the Church because God in the Flesh gave the authority to the Church. I am a Christian. I know you are too. We believe more than you think and more than you do that Christ’s one-time Redemption of His flock is complete. We use “rituals” (whatever your idea of that may be), sacramentals, etc… to help us in our journey to be with the Source of Life, Truth and Love.

What separates the Catholic from the Bible believing Christian according to Catholic teaching is… drumroll… NOTHING! I am just talking here of simple man with a soul. Obviously, I am not talking doctrine or belief. I am just as much a sinner as the atheist. I can attest to that. And so are you. The only advantage is that we believe we have a gift. Why do you judge us? Why do you assume that what anti-Catholic whoppers say about Catholicism is true? Why do you act against Catholics how atheists do against theists? Why do you think you are better than us? Why have you not read our books, articles, sites, etc…? Why have you not taken the time to check the Faith page of this website to see what we believe and why?

I do expect answers to all of these from anybody but you preferable. I pray that God releases you from the darkness and hatred for Catholics in your soul and make an honest attempt to learn our teachings from us and not from others. If it does not convert you when you learn them, at least you will have an open and welcoming heart for us.

 

[moondweller]

Not at all. How can you say that Cooperating with Grace and following Christ in any way diminished the Cross? Isn’t it actually doing what Jesus called us to do?

No, the message of Christ and His Apostles, from the beginning and to this day, is to believe in Christ for eternal life:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."Belief in Christ is personal belief in what He accomplished on the cross for us, once for all, as revealed and explained in the Epistles, especially Pauline. Notice the criterion in the above verses: “believe.”

Wasn’t Jesus’s sacrifice explicitly to allow us to get the grace that works within us to do good works?

No. His sacrifice was explicitly to “take away the sin of the world” (Jo. 1:29). As Paul explains it:2 Cor 5:21 “He (God) made Him (Jesus - on the cross) who knew no sin {to be} sin (i.e., our sins) on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (that’s in the resurrected Christ).

And if we fail to do good works, how can we say we are living in grace?

Men are saved by grace (“through faith”), and the saved are called to walk by faith in/by the Spirit who now indwells them. The closest the Scriptures even come to your idea of “living in grace” is found in Rom. 5:1-2:"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."It’s not “living in grace” in order to perform works which contribute to one’s future salvation, but the justified by faith now (and forever) stand in grace (Divine favor) before God. But all of this is God’s doing on behalf of the believer for Christ’s sake:1 Cor 1:30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."We boast in Him who did it all. It’s this grace (Divine favor) in which the true believer now forever STANDS.

Sure, God has the power to save men. The Cross is the beginning of our salvation but more is required of us than simple acknowledgement of Christ’s sacrifice and vainly claiming that Jesus will save you because you believe he will. Why can’t you see that?

The true believer doesn’t simply acknowledge the historicity of Christ’s sacrifice, he BELIEVES the testimony of God concerning His expiatory, propitiatory, vicarious, substitutionary, sacrificial work on the cross on his behalf. And through such faith God saved him. Truly SAVED him (a once for all, completed, Divine act) - according to the Scriptures. Why can’t you see that? Because you stumble over the simplicity of it.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

No, the message of Christ and His Apostles, from the beginning and to this day, is to believe in Christ for eternal life:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."Belief in Christ is personal belief in what He accomplished on the cross for us, once for all, as revealed and explained in the Epistles, especially Pauline. Notice the criterion in the above verses: "believe."No. His sacrifice was explicitly to “take away the sin of the world” (Jo. 1:29). As Paul explains it:2 Cor 5:21 “He (God) made Him (Jesus - on the cross) who knew no sin {to be} sin (i.e., our sins) on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (that’s in the resurrected Christ).Men are saved by grace (“through faith”), and the saved are called to walk by faith in/by the Spirit who now indwells them. The closest the Scriptures even come to your idea of “living in grace” is found in Rom. 5:1-2:"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."It’s not “living in grace” in order to perform works which contribute to one’s future salvation, but the justified by faith now (and forever) stand in grace (Divine favor) before God. But all of this is God’s doing on behalf of the believer for Christ’s sake:1 Cor 1:30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."We boast in Him who did it all. It’s this grace (Divine favor) in which the true believer now forever STANDS.The true believer doesn’t simply acknowledge the historicity of Christ’s sacrifice, he BELIEVES the testimony of God concerning His expiatory, propitiatory, vicarious, substitutionary, sacrificial work on the cross on his behalf. And through such faith God saved him. Truly SAVED him (a once for all, completed, Divine act) - according to the Scriptures. Why can’t you see that? Because you stumble over the simplicity of it.

Read my last statement. We see throught the simplicity better than you think. There is an infinite difference between temporal and eternal. I will let you ponder the significane of this in accord with Christ’s death. You are trivializing His death. Let me ask you something. I just want a one word answer without elaboration.

Moondweller, do you sin?

 

[paul_c]

The apostle Paul is not talking out of both corners of his mouth. He clearly said in Eph. 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace, and not of works. Yes, verse. 10 says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, but we do those works because we are already in Christ Jesus. We have already been declared righteous. We are already saved and have our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life. These good works do not apply to the unsaved. Those who do not know Christ as their personal Savior. Those who are not born again.

I would agree with you that Paul doesn’t talk ou of both sides of his mouth. He says we are saved by Grace, yes. and faith, yes, but also works:
Romans 2: 5-10 is unmistakeable:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Those who believe we are still under the law are cursed according to Paul.

He’s talking abou he people who didn’t recognize the new covenant. He’s not saying that you shouldn’t follow the moral laws. In fact, in Romans 2, he says that you will be judged based on those laws whether you have been taught the 10 commandments or not because they are written on every man’s heart. (The natural law)

Works based religion is a religion that does not believe Christ atoned for all sin.

Well, this is a straw man if you are referring to Catholicism. first of all, we are Pelagians. We don’t beleive that you can work your way inot heaven on your own. We believe you need God’s grace to do good works and that you get that through baptism. Jesus did atone for all men with his sacrifice.

They believe they must help Christ.

This is laughable. You know so little about Catholic theology. We don’t help Jesus. He is all powerful afterall. We beleive we must cooperate with his grace and follow his example to get to heaven. This is not because he couldn’t take anyone he wished to heaven, its simply because he wants us to chose life.

That His sin ransom was not complete. [/qupte] Sure it was complete. It earned salvation for all those that desire it and follow Christ. But it didn’t ransom those that simply say they believe and don;t live out their faith.
yankee_drifter;7204126:

The bottom line is that they do not trust Christ alone for their eternal salvation.

Sure we trust him. he said in Matthew 19 that if we follow the commandments, we will have eternal life.

They are trusting in their church and church rituals and other “works.”

We do trust in the Church commissioned by Christ and we believe the sacraments provide grace as Jesus told us they would.

This is what separates the catholic from the Bible believing Christian.

Absolutely. you deny the sacraments, you deny the unity of the church.

 

[Calvin_95]

All of those verses say salvation is by faith, but none of those verses say salvation is by faith alone. Big difference. Romans 3 is as close as it gets, but as you can see from Romans 2, Paul asserts:

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:1-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Hence the “works of the law” in the next chapter means what it says… the Old Testament Law, which by itself is unable to save. Otherwise Paul would be contradicting himself. And don’t get me started about James.

False.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

First of all, Paul already said that everyone will be judged according to works (Romans 2), so you’re on thin ice. But let’s look at those verses.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 4:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:1-7[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:11-14[/BIBLEDRB]

Your wager is that the “death” referred to in chapters 6 and 8 refers to temporal death; if it referred to eternal death, then those verses are necessarily part of justification. Well, flip to the end and what do we see…

[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 20:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]

Even those whose names were written in the Lamb’s Book of Life (the “justified” as you would have it) are judged according to their works. Well, so much for this distinction between justification and sanctification. They are the same process.

You are the one who has made Scripture contradict itself. You try to get away with this by omitting Romans 2, Hebrews 10, and Revelation 20 among others. Sorry, but I wasn’t born again yesterday.

You can preach “justification by works” all day long & it will not change the Word of God. I expect many will and do disagree, but that is the clear teaching of Scripture as I understand the Word of God. You obviously have a different understanding of the Word of God. God will sort it out in the end; I have both trust and confidence in that and am thankful that He is the Master of everyone’s destination.

May God bless you!

 

[Calvin_95]

Calvin 95, Moondweller, and yankee Drifter,
your recent posts all have one thing in common: you seem to believe that Jesus’s only purpose was to die on the cross for our salvation. That is not true. He also taught what is required for entering heaven. And while he certainly taught that Grace is required and he certainly taught that Faith was required, he ALSO taught that we need to live moral lives, avoid sin, love God and Love our neighbor as ourselves.

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were troubled that they were sinful men and that the Catholic Church taught that you needed to be in the state of Grace to enter heaven. Rather than work toward the required sanctification, they developed a NEW theology that said taht sancification was seperate from justification and that Justification was by Faith alone. Voila, Now it was no longer important to avoid sin as long as you beleived that Jesus would save you in his mercy.

The problem with his theology is that Just because you wish that sin doesn’t effect your salvation, doesn’t mean its true. Calvin took it another step further and denied that anything man did at all was irrelevant to salvation, because it was predestined anyway. This eliminated all personal responsibility for anything - a very nifty philosophy sure to be embraced by underacheivers. but again. Just wishing you aren’t responsible, doesn’t make it true.

You know its easy to take seleced words and phrases out of the bible and make them say anything you want. Luther and Calvin were quite adept at this. Luther went so far as actually altering the bible to support hi theology, taking out 7 books of the old testament and adding “Faith alone” to one of Paul’s epistles. But a simple check on theology is that it must comprehend all scripture and Calvinism and lutheranism sure fail in this regard

God is the one who sovereignly gives/grants the gifts of faith, repentance, assurance, graces, perseverance, salvation et al; it is 100% GOD and 0% man. The primary reason Jesus went to the cross was for God, not for man.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You can preach “justification by works” all day long & it will not change the Word of God.

Works alone don’t justify.

[BIBLEDRB]John 15:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Neither does faith alone.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

Grace justifies, but it requires a response: faith and works.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]

God bless you as well :tiphat:

 

[moondweller]

Read my last statement. We see through the simplicity better than you think. There is an infinite difference between temporal and eternal.

There’s nothing temporal about the results of the cross. What He accomplished there, once for all, have eternal effects.

You are trivializing His death.

How so? Don’t accuse me of such a thing unless you can prove your point.

Let me ask you something. I just want a one word answer without elaboration.

Moondweller, do you sin?

Yes, and every one infinitely “forgiven” (see Acts 10:43; 13:38; 26:18; Col. 1:14). In respect to the flesh I am certainly a sinner. But in respect to the spirit I am righteous. In fact my righteousness is far more plentiful than my sin, because upon belief in Christ “the righteousness of God” was imputed to me; and positionally I am now in the resurrected Christ, made righteous “in Him;” identified by God not as a sinner but a “saint” (see Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2; Jude 1:3).

All of this because of the cross of Christ. Hardly trivial, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[Calvin_95]

This is quite a statement, Paul. You circumvent the cross as the Divine means for one “entering heaven.” This is, of course, quintessential Catholic, works oriented soteriology. Demonstrated by your statement:"And while he certainly taught that Grace is required and he certainly taught that Faith was required, he ALSO taught that we need to live moral lives, avoid sin, love God and Love our neighbor as ourselves."Rendering “faith” and “grace” meaningless. IOW, God saves those who meritoriously save themselves.Divine mercy is God holding back all that we deserve. Divine grace is freely giving us all that we don’t deserve.“Mercy” is God sending His Son into this world as the unblemished “Lamb of God” to take away the sin of the world. “Grace” is He saving all who would believe in Him: “For BY GRACE (not mercy) you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…”

It was based on what God had revealed in the Scriptures that these men saw justification and experiential sanctification as separate. The words have totally different meanings. Experiential sanctification is the process by which the faithful strive to live holy lives on this earth (to the glory of Christ) while still in these yet fallen, unredeemed bodies.Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

Gal 5:25 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."But this instruction to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh is for the SAVED whose sins are now ALL forgiven, who are now redeemed, who are now justified, who are now sanctified (eternally set apart) in the risen Christ, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It’s not instruction on how to be (become) saved.

Justification, however, according to the Scriptures is having been reckoned (credited) by God a whole new standing before him (righteous) at the time of personal FAITH in Jesus Christ.Rom 3:27-30 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”

Rom 4:1-6 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (his belief in God’s Word) was credited to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"This is neither the imaginations of men nor the word of men, but the Word of God itself. And it’s faith in His Word by which He justifies the ungodly - according to the Scriptures. Faith has an object. That object is the Word of God; both the living (Christ) and the written Word (the Scriptures).

Well put; you truly have a love for God’s word and I look forward to fellowship with you once we are absent from our bodies and present with the Lord. Do you believe in the “catching away of the church” as I do and I believe we are near the very end of the end times; which means I believe if we live another 20 years we may not even see physical death. I also, believe that there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which is putting this into the minds of God’s children because every Christian I know has the same feeling and some pastors i have heard have felt the same. I’m talking about pastors who do not say things like that in an “of-the-wall” manner.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Well put; you truly have a love for God’s word and I look forward to fellowship with you once we are absent from our bodies and present with the Lord. Do you believe in the “catching away of the church” as I do and I believe we are near the very end of the end times;

That will occur after the Tribulation. There was a Rapture thread a while back so if you’d like to discuss that there, that would be the place.

 

[Calvin_95]

And IF one does NOT walk by the Spirit and not the flesh do they go to heaven when they die anyway?

Chuck

Very simple according the the Holy Spirit working the the pen of the Apostle Paul.

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” - Romans 11:6

The full context would be Romans 11:1-32.

Hope that answers your question.

God bless.

 

[Calvin_95]

Look at the text. Does it SAY anywhere there that they won’t?

You ask because you approach it from a strictly works mentality. You have no concept of “SAVED” (a past, completed action by God) or the power of God to do so “by grace,” “through faith,” based exclusively on the work of Another.

In Romans 4:5 does God justify (reckon righteous) the godly or the ungodly through faith?

Again, Chuck, why is it you appeal to me and avoid what is written (or not). However, did I not say in my post that that instruction was addressed to the SAVED? And that it was not instruction on how to be saved?

But again, a works mentality has no concept of what it means for one to “have been saved” (Eph. 2:8) Since from a works perspective God has no power to save anyone strictly through the cross of Christ and one’s faith in Him, but is rather in the process of saving those who are saving themselves via meritorious good works - according to the tradition of men.

According to the Scriptures the “saved” have there citizenship in heaven “from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:20-21).

Now you’ll ask, “Can they lose there citizenship in heaven?” And I’ll reply, “Does the text say they can?” You’ll ask because you have no concept of what it means to “have been saved.” A gracious work of God for the sake of Christ who bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24; Is. 53:4, 11; 1 Cor. 15:3).Heb 9:28 “…so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”

Heb 10:9-10 “…then He said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:12-14 “…but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time (not just sins prior to one’s baptism - an unbiblical concept), sat down at the right hand of God…For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (i.e., set apart in the risen Christ).

Are you just practicing and keeping the knowledge of the truth in the forefront of your mind? You obviously have been walking with Christ for a while or you are new 93-5 years) and have been set on fire and continue to hunger & thirst for Him and His revealed word. God bless you & keep you brother or sister. Are you a brother or a sister?

 

[Calvin_95]

To the contrary, what you do is explain away the efficacy of the cross of Christ, the means by which God has the power to save (forever), by grace, all who believe in Him.1 Cor 1:17-18 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

1 Cor 1:22-24 “For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Gal 5:11 “But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision (the principle of works for salvation), why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.”

Gal 6:14 “But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.”

Eph 2:13-16 “*But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off * (i.e., Gentiles) have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both (Jew and Gentile) one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,…”

Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."This is what Paul meant when he said that we preach Christ crucified. It’s the power of God to save men “by grace through faith” - according to the Scriptures.

:clapping: :tiphat: :knight2:

 

[Calvin_95]

Not at all. How can you say that Cooperating with Grace and following Christ in any way diminished the Cross? Isn’t it actually doing what Jesus called us to do? Wasn’t Jesus’s sacrifice explicitly to allow us to get the grace that works within us to do good works? Adn if we fail to do good works, how can we say we are living in grace? Lets look at your quotes for the real interpretations…

This was part of a disussion about healing the factions in Corinth, where the Corinthians were describing themselves as disciples of various Apostles. He is simply saying that they should all be disciples of Christ and that it was not the work of the various Apostles that should be the source of their faith but Jesus’ sacrifice.

This is a continuation of the discussion above, saying that unbelieving Jews and Gentiles could not comprehend the meaning of the Crucifixion. Please note, that neither of these quote deny that we are called to holiness. They merely point out the importance of Christ’s sacrifice

He was saying in Galatians that the Old Covenant no longer applied. Baptism replaces Circumcision. It has nothing to do with works salvation.

This doesn’t mean that the only thing necessary was to recognize that Jesus was crucified. This is absolutely a case of taking a quote out of context because this is what preceeds it and makes exactly the opposite point you are trying to make:
7 Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows,
8 because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.
9 Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do notgive up.
10 So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of the faith

He’s saying that the Gentiles and Jews are united by Christ as members of one church…

Notice that he is talking about Baptism this is line 12, which preceeds your quote:
12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Sure, God has the power to save men. The Cross is the beginning of our salvation but more is required of us than simple acknowledgement of Christ’s sacrifice and vainly claiming that Jesus will save you because you believe he will. Why can’t you see that?

He does understand the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of men of whom God has chosen and the means by which He chose, which is grace alone, by faith alone in Jesus alone for God’s glory. If one adds .00000000000000000001% to grace; grace is no longer grace and it is by grace that God grants faith in Jesus. **I do not know Moondweller, but I know enough from what i have seen in his/her posts to know that God has radically transformed his/her life supernaturally. ** If he/she became a Christian in the middle of his/her life, like mine, then I already know his/her testimony from a person who thought they were decent compared to others and probably believed in God and probably thought they would be in heaven until God moved and then he/she realized what a wretched and despicable person they really were before a holy and just God and when he/she looks back on their life; it looks like a nightmare compared to the life they now have in Christ.

 

[Calvin_95]

Read my last statement. We see throught the simplicity better than you think. There is an infinite difference between temporal and eternal. I will let you ponder the significane of this in accord with Christ’s death. You are trivializing His death. Let me ask you something. I just want a one word answer without elaboration.

Moondweller, do you sin?

He is exulting the Lord’s death, burial and resurrection & the power of God unto salvation; not trivializing it; why can you not see it? Of course He sins; but sin is put away as far as the east is to the west; do you know how far that is? We confess our sins before God alone because we have reverence, we are commanded and it acknowledges our rebellion and allows Him to receive glory in chastening us or showing mercy on us and He will do either for our own good because He loves us more than we can begin to imagine. I mean He crushed His son; I couldn’t do that. He crushed His son; this should cause us to pause and get on our knees and cry; He crushed His only begotten son.

 

[guanophore]

Romans 11:6: But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Romans 4:6: " Just as David also speaks of the blessing upon man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works."

Romans 3:28: "For we mention that a man is justified by grace apart from works of the law."

Titus 3:5: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy by the washing of the regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit.”

Gal 2:21: “For if righteousness comes through obedience of the law, then Christ died in vain.”

James 2:10 condemns every form of self perfection. He who stumbles on one point of the law is guilty of breaking the entire law.

What are these passages saying? Its all about grace. Not about us.

What these passages are saying are Catholic Teaching, written by, for, and about Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

What does this have to do with salvation? If you break one law, you’re guilty of breaking all of them. Without God’s grace we cannot make it to heaven. Remission of sins can only come about through the shedding of blood…the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

It has everything to do with salvation. God does not save those who do not wish to be saved. He shed His blood for all, but not all will benefit from it, because their faith will not mix with His grace producing salvation.

The Catholic Church teaches that, without faith, it is impossible to please Him, and that our faith is kindled by His grace. The Catholic Church teaches that our salvation was purchased for us on Calvary by the sacrifice of the Lamb, as propitiation for our sins.

 

[guanophore]

in Christ Jesus" born in Adam) are those who by grace (not so-called dispensed “graces”) “have been saved through faith; and that not of themselves; the gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9).

I am curious MD, is do you understand there to be a difference between something being “given” and something being “dispensed”?

moondweller:

IOW, those prepared beforehand good works are for those who ARE ("*have been*") saved, not for the hope of being saved.

Both things are true. We are able to do these works because we are “in Christ”. The ergos hagios are produced in, with, and through His grace. Therefore, if we are able to do them, our hope is increased, for we know that we are walking in the path He has designed for us.

The people who have to worry or have no hope of being saved are the ones that are not able to walk in these works.

You see, the core problem with Catholicism is it has no concept of "*saved*."

Oh, I needed a good chortle!

MD, you seem to have forgotten that the NT is a Catholic collection of Catholic books/letters, that was written by, for, and about Catholics! All you know about salvation has come from the Catholic Church.

Now, all that inaccurate stuff you have about salvation has come from another source.

Why? Because it adds works to its doctrine of salvation.

No, MD, the work of God was added by God.

Anyway, try to be consistent with your calumny. First you say the CC has no concept of being saved, now you admit that the CC has a “doctrine of salvation”. So, which is it?

And for this reason salvation for Catholics is a future event (or not) based on one’s present performance.

In part, yes. The Aposltes taught that there are some aspects of our salvation that are past, some present, and some that are not completed in this life.

But in truth no Catholic can, nor is allowed to, believe he/she is SAVED (a present, eternal reality based on an historical event: the cross of Christ).

Well, of course we do! The refers to the part of salvation that is already completed. Baptism, which joins us to HIm in His death, is also a past historical even with eternal reality.

Working out our salvation is present.

Glorification does not occur in this life.

Because of the addition of works to salvation a Catholic cannot accept the words of Paul

If this were true, MD, then the Catholic author of those words would not have taught them to Catholics, nor would they have been preserved, protected, promulgated and canonized by the CC.

On the contrary, we only reject your misunderstanding of those words.

 For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from **faith to faith**; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

"[/indent]The “righteous” {man} in this context is the one who does not work, but “believes in Him who justifies the ungodly.”

We believe that the righteous one (justified) walks in the ergos hagios by grace, through faith. The grace that produces saving faith is the same grace that produces the works of righteousness in which we are to walk.

And in the congruity with Paul’s teachings throughout his Epistles he states in Phil. 3:9hil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., works - now catch the contrast): but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"According to the Scriptures, the righteousness which comes from God is on the basis of FAITH alone.

Indeed, and that saving faith is the same faith that allows us to access the grace by which we can walk in righteousness. Catholics do not separate these from each other.

For it’s “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and preserved in Holy Writ for all subsequent generations.

What you do not realize, dear brother in Christ, is that your spiritual ancestors departed from that One Faith about 500 years ago, and what you now espouse constitutes what they called “a different gospel” than the one we received from them.