Faith alone or not?

[paul_c]

paul c;7205216:

This is laughable. You know so little about Catholic theology. We don’t help Jesus. He is all powerful afterall. We beleive we must cooperate with his grace and follow his example to get to heaven. This is not because he couldn’t take anyone he wished to heaven, its simply because he wants us to chose life.

You do believe that you must help Jesus by claiming his sacrifice and atonement was not complete or sufficient, thereby you are still trying to gain entrance to heaven through your church and church works.

Yankee, I just told you what we believe and you counter by saying that’s not what we beleive. Frankly, how would you know what Catholics believe? And How can we ever have a productive discussion if you are arguing against self defined strawmen? If you want to win any souls to your perspective, you need to at least recognize what we are saying, otherwise your credibility is gone.

What did Jesus say was required for heaven? What is the work of God that we must do? Jesus said: This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29)

You act like this was all he said. He preached for 3 years on Earth. He also said you need to follow the commandments (Matthew 19), eat his body and drink his blood (John 6: 54) , do the will of the Father (Matthew 7), do works of mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46), and be born again in water and spirit (i.e, be baptized) (John 3). Why do you ignore all these other requirements and focus only on the one that doesn’t really require you to do anything other than mouth the words, I beleive"

The people who were asking Jesus what shall they do that they may do the work of God, were looking for something “to do”. Some way to please God through works.

What do you think is wrong with trying to please God in whatever way we can?

 

[moondweller]

Besides, our righteous ACTS are His WORKS too.

And you’re taught that those meritorious “righteous acts” contribute to your future salvation. But contrast that teaching with:Rom 5:18-19 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."And the testimony of the Apostle Paul:Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"So, my friend, according to the Scriptures, God’s written Word (and God cannot lie), there is no salvation or justification based on any man’s so-called many “acts of righteousness,” but only the ONE act of righteousness: That of the Man Christ Jesus. AMEN

By the way, there is HUGE difference between the WORKS of the LAW and the WORKS of GRACE. Read.

Not FOR salvation or justification - according to the Scriptures:Rom 4:5-6 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works - ANY works) is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works."AMEN

Are we to believe God or men? Salvation depends on it.

 

[paul_c]

And you’re taught that those meritorious “righteous acts” contribute to your future salvation.

How can you fault us for following what Jesus taught in Matthew 7: 21-23 on this point?

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

But contrast that teaching with:Rom 5:18-19 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

How is this inconsistent with Catholic teaching? Adam is the first man, and his sin led to death. Christ is the second man and his sacrifice resulted in life. When we are baptized, all our previous sins are forgiven. That’s what this is refering to.

"And the testimony of the Apostle Paul:Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

,
Again, he is saying that we didn’t have to do any good works to deserve the grace we get in baptism. There are no qualification requirements other than the desire to be baptized (which is faith).

"So, my friend, according to the Scriptures, God’s written Word (and God cannot lie), there is no salvation or justification based on any man’s so-called many “acts of righteousness,” but only the ONE act of righteousness: That of the Man Christ Jesus.

It doesn’t say that. It says all you need to do to be baptized is to have Faith and the desire to be baptized and you will get sufficient grace to be saved. It does NOT say that you can’t lose that Grace by subsequent sin…

AMENNot FOR salvation or justification - according to the Scriptures:Rom 4:5-6 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works - ANY works) is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works."AMEN

Sure, you don’t have to do any work to get Grace. But you need to do work to stay in the state of Grace. Paul said that in Romans2: 5-10 (you might have skipped that part):

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek

Are we to believe God or men? Salvation depends on it.

This is SO true. But you need to beleive all of what God says, not only the parts that appeal to you.

 

[Cat_Herder]

What works do you believe God requires of you? Where in the bible is the list of requirements?

Where do we see penance?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 13:3[/BIBLEDRB]

Man as Mediator?

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 2:10[/BIBLEDRB]

Resurrecting the priesthood? Etc Etc.

Look back a page or at my profile.

These are works of men. God never asked any of it. He asks only that we accept His Son. Believe on His Son, Confess with our mouths that the Son Is Lord, admit we are sinners and** take up our cross and follow Him.**

It is that last part that just isn’t clear to you. Carrying the cross is a work. As far as your claim that there is no list of specifics, that is false.

Jn 14:15, Mt 19:16-17, 1Tim 5:8, Mt 7:21, Mt 19:16-17, Jn 14:21, Rom 2:2-8, Gal 5:4-6 , Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12-13, Rom 2:2-8, 2Cor 5:10, 2Cor 11:15, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12-13, Col 3:24-25

Read those. Then read this:
[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-24[/BIBLEDRB]

I don’t think you’ll actually read the above list, though I would love to be contradicted in that regard. So ponder this:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

If you say salvation is by believing alone, what does it mean to be worse than an unbeliever?

Not rules, rites, rituals, a list of do’s and don’ts. That’s what the priests and pharisees failed to understand. The Pharisees loved the law.

The Law comes from GOD. The Pharisees were right to love it, Jesus acknowledged their authority (while condemning their conduct). But they were wrong to believe themselves justified by it. Paul admonished us to love the Law as well, with the understanding that our salvation comes from grace. It is precisely because of grace that we keep the Law as the Holy Spirit conforms us to the image of Christ.

The ones who say the law was abolished are not Christians. They are Muslims.

Nowhere do we read in Scriptures that faith is a WORK.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:29[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[moondweller]

How can you fault us for following what Jesus taught in Matthew 7: 21-23 on this point?

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Do you not comprehend what Jesus said? The one who enters the kingdom of heaven (which, in context, is the earthly, Millennial Kingdom to come - it’s not addressed to His church He is presently building) is the one who does the will of His Father in heaven. He says that on that day many will try to enter it based on their works. Above they appeal to Christ to allow them in because of the “mighty deeds” they claim they did in His name. But what is His response to them? “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.” Why? Because what is required for entrance is not works but the possession of Divine righteousness: Rom 3:22 “even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

Jesus said: "John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

How is this inconsistent with Catholic teaching? Adam is the first man, and his sin led to death. Christ is the second man and his sacrifice resulted in life. When we are baptized, all our previous sins are forgiven. That’s what this is refering to.

It states nothing about water baptism. It says: “…even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” The ONE is Jesus Christ and the obedience is His death on the cross where our sins (all of them) were imputed to Him and He died TO them, once for all. And in exchange the “righteousness of God” is imputed to the one who believed (2 Cor. 5:21)

Again, he is saying that we didn’t have to do any good works to deserve the grace we get in baptism.

It stated nothing about grace nor water baptism. The CONTEXT is righteousness. A “credited” righteousness based not on works but FAITH alone:Rom 4:5-6 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”

Sure, you don’t have to do any work to get Grace. But you need to do work to stay in the state of Grace.

Can you show me where the phrase “state of grace” is in the Scriptures? Where Christ or any of the Apostles used that phrase? Actually, that’s a phrase taken from your own tradition where it is connected to the teaching that at the time of water baptism “sanctified grace” is infused into the soul of the water baptized and it is required of the Catholic to maintain it (i.e., avoiding any unrepentant “mortal” sin) until the moment of his death.

Paul said that in Romans2: 5-10 (you might have skipped that part):

Paul states nothing about a “state of grace” in those verses. You read that doctrine into it.

This is SO true. But you need to beleive all of what God says, not only the parts that appeal to you.

That’s not the gospel message (Acts 16:30-31). Nor the words of Christ Himself (Jn. 3:14-18). The object of saving faith, according to the Scriptures, is the Person and, once for all, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. A faith that lifts us outside of ourselves and looks to and trusts completely in the “finished” work of Another - to the glory of God.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

And you’re taught that those meritorious “righteous acts” contribute to your future salvation.

Are we to believe God or men? Salvation depends on it.

I believe God. You are right. Why do people assume I trust the Church without trusting God. I trust the Church BECAUSE I trust God. Jesus IS the Truth. When you claim that His Mystical Body (Catholic Church) is wrong, you are claiming Jesus is wrong. You should look into the beauty of our doctrine, belief and rituals instead of thinking you are right. I know a few Protestants (very few but still exist) whom, although they may not agree with teaching, absolutely love the Church Tradition and traditions. They love reading about saints and Mary and rituals (whatever that means) and the Mass.

Anyway, this is exactly what I would love to see stop happening. Nowhere did any of us say that, mean that, imply that, think that, type that, etc… I guess I would not expect anything else other than for you all to twist our words around.

We do not think they contribute in the strict sence you are meaning it. We all are judged according to our deeds when we pass, which is exactly the point my Catholic brothers have been trying to tell you. And way to only get the three or so sentences that you thought were wrong or at least twistable and skip over the ones that were true.

Anyway, yes there is a difference in Scripture between works of law and works of grace. I will let you find them (even though my Catholic brothers have showed you many times) but I will explain them. A works of law is doing a work according to the letter (for example, almsgiving) and sometimes doing for so people can see. A work of grace is one you do and only because you love God, yourself or others because this is the law of love. Jesus said the two greatest commandments (which your friend forgot even existed in his case against us) was to love God and treat others AS YOU WOULD TREAT YOURSELF. One can also had to honor thy father and mother but that is not relevant to our discussion. This is all in the Bible. We did not make any of this stuff up.

You have nothing to say when we bring up verses like when Paul says he is working out his salvation with fear and trembling. Or James says that faith without works is dead. Or when Jesus says whatever we do to others, we are doing to Him. Or when Jesus says that whoever does the will of God are His brothers and sisters. Or Jesus’ parable of the rebellious child who said he did not want to work did it work anyway and the other one said he would but did not do anything. Or the parable where Jesus talks about the talents. Or when Jesus says to do penance (Luke 15:7); some Bibles say repentance instead but one cannot be repentant (inward/soul) without doing penance (outward/body) and vice-versa. You should skip over these when Catholics mention them. There are many more that I cannot name.

Rom 5:18-19: Your idea of this is overly complex. He was talking about Jesus act as opposed to Adam, hence our idea of the New Adam. We were condemned because of Adam but through Christ we may obtain righteousness. This is why he says for the many and not for all, that is, because not all will accept it extrinsically and/or intrinsically.

Titus 3:5: You should have underlined BASIS for this passage. We believe it is based on God’s mercy as it says. We do not indicate otherwise anywhere. This is pure Catholic and thanks for calling me friend. I was worrying for a second.

Your conclusion has no premise. Keep in mind I am not attacking your belief. I am only saying it has no premise. You are trivializing the One act of rightousness because we have to accept Him, believe IN Him and believe Him. Trust me on this one. Please. God does not lie. You are right. He did not lie when He gave the Church authority to bind and to loose and to forgive and to not forgive.

Rom 4:5-6: I am not sure that you realize we are on the same page in believing the Scriptures. In any case, this is irrelevant to my point of works of law and works of grace.

As a side note, evil deeds can certainly “contribute” (terrible word but for lack of better word) to our perdition. Why would God not take account for works in our salvation? Keep in mind all works and not just works of the law. It is pretty explicit in the Bible. We look at the whole and you look at verses that help your cause.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Do you not comprehend what Jesus said? The one who enters the kingdom of heaven (which, in context, is the earthly, Millennial Kingdom to come - it’s not addressed to His church He is presently building) is the one who does the will of His Father in heaven. He says that on that day many will try to enter it based on their works. Above they appeal to Christ to allow them in because of the “mighty deeds” they claim they did in His name. But what is His response to them? “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.” Why? Because what is required for entrance is not works but the possession of Divine righteousness: Rom 3:22 “even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

Perhaps, you misunderstand us. None of the saints ever claimed to have done “mighty deeds”. Mighty deeds make sure that everyone sees that they did these works. the word “mighty” should raise your eyebrows. The Church never says Faith and Mighty Deeds. That would be ridiculous and I am laughing at it because it is so ridiculous. They do not even say to make it public. They (that is those with the “mighty deeds”) were showing off instead of doing works of charity for God and for God only. They did it for the public instead of looking at the big picture. A Catholic who is claiming to have done mighty deeds is not following Christ.

That should clear things up the misunderstanding

 

[GreggAlvarez]

That’s not the gospel message (Acts 16:30-31). Nor the words of Christ Himself (Jn. 3:14-18). The object of saving faith, according to the Scriptures, is the Person and, once for all, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. A faith that lifts us outside of ourselves and looks to and trusts completely in the “finished” work of Another - to the glory of God.

This has been our point all along. Paul C said that you have to believe all of what God says and you retorted with this. This is saying that you do not believe all of the Bible and that Jesus does not say you have to believe the Bible which is ridiculous because Jesus IS the Word of God along with the Bible. Then you say “according to Scriptures”. Are you implying that this is according to a Scripture that you believe as opposed to one you do not believe? I really hope you just made a mental mistake in that because the hole is getting very deep. I am trying to help you out here.

We also believe the object of faith is Christ and his once-for-all sacrifice for the redemption of man. But a point of mine has been that Christ is more than just a Man in a Book. This is where Tradition is. If God can protect the written word from error, certainly He can protect the spoken word (from which the written word came anyway) from error. All Bible verses aside, do you agree with that? Yes or no. No elaboration please. I would you rather not fall into a trap again. Just a simple yes or no.

Ditto on the last sentence. Finally, we fully agree on something!

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
How can you fault us for following what Jesus taught in Matthew 7: 21-23 on this point?

Sure, I do. He said that faith alone was insufficient to enter the kingdom of heaven and that you need to do his Father’s works. And he told the evil doers to depart from him, even if they felt justified to have done mighty deeds in his name.

The one who enters the kingdom of heaven (which, in context, is the earthly, Millennial Kingdom to come - it’s not addressed to His church He is presently building) is the one who does the will of His Father in heaven.

Aren’t you directly changing what Jesus said here. He said heaven, you say millennial kingdom. Who should I believe?

He says that on that day many will try to enter it based on their works. Above they appeal to Christ to allow them in because of the “mighty deeds” they claim they did in His name. But what is His response to them? “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.” Why? Because what is required for entrance is not works but the possession of Divine righteousness: Rom 3:22 “even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

Again you are directly changing what Jesus said. Those people beleived in Jesus, they did works in his name afterall. The problem wasn’t lack of Faith. They were condemned because they were EVIL DOERS.

Jesus said: "
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

How selective you are to pull that line out of the bread of life passage while you do not even acknowledge the real presence in the eucharist. He also said in the same seqence (John 6):
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever

yet you only believe what you want to believe. Are you not like those described in the verse 60: Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Quote:
How is this inconsistent with Catholic teaching? Adam is the first man, and his sin led to death. Christ is the second man and his sacrifice resulted in life. When we are baptized, all our previous sins are forgiven. That’s what this is refering to.

No, this verse says sins are forgiven but it doesn’t go into the methodology. I’m explaining the methodology to you from other scripture verses (including Mark 16: 16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It says: “…even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” The ONE is Jesus Christ and the obedience is His death on the cross where our sins (all of them) were imputed to Him and He died TO them, once for all. And in exchange the “righteousness of God” is imputed to the one who believed (2 Cor. 5:21)

Sure, your sins are forgiven when you are baptized. But you extend it beyond that, which has no scriptural basis except when forgiven by the Apostles or their successors.

Quote:
Again, he is saying that we didn’t have to do any good works to deserve the grace we get in baptism

you need to look at the bible as a whole and not just selected passages to understand what it means.

Quote:
Sure, you don’t have to do any work to get Grace. But you need to do work to stay in the state of Grace.

Can you show me where the phrase “state of grace” is in the Scriptures? Where Christ or any of the Apostles used that phrase? Actually, that’s a phrase taken from your own tradition where it is connected to the teaching that at the time of water baptism “sanctified grace” is infused into the soul of the water baptized and it is required of the Catholic to maintain it (i.e., avoiding any unrepentant “mortal” sin) until the moment of his death.
Good, so you ARE paying attention.

 

[moondweller]

Good, so you ARE paying attention.

Paying attention? I’ve studied your religion. Probably more than you have.

 

[paul_c]

Paying attention? I’ve studied your religion. Probably more than you have.

Thats a bold statement from someone who regularly misrepresents what we believe. If you really understood what Catholicism teaches, you would desist with the constant refrain of “works based religion”

Do you really understand that Love is what drives Catholics? Love of God, Love of Jesus, Love of the Church, Love of neighbor? Do you have any concept of how beautiful that love can be to the devout Catholic? And how we build each other up in the faith? You know sometimes I watch the people at mass and am absolutely amazed at the love there between parent and child, spouses, and particularly between some our older couples.

Do you understand that the Church is a service organization, providing advice, counsel, and most importantly, administering the sacraments to the faithful, all the while protecting the truths entrusted to it by Christ?

Do you have any idea of the depths of devotion that are available to Catholics, honed through 2000 years of religious life. Have you ever been to a mass and felt the holiness in the church? Or participated in the rosary, the stations of the cross or most importantly, eucharistic adoration? Have you watch EWTN? Have you read the Catechism?

Have you ever read the lives of the saints and seen what levels of holiness can be acheived on earth. Do you recognize the sacrifices and dedication of our priests and religious who give up money, freedom, and families for the service of the people and the glory of God?

These are of course rhetorical questions. Don’t feel compelled to answer, I just want to make that point that your thousands of post on this website do not convey that you understand the essence of Catholicism and I am pretty sure that most of the other Catholics here would agree.

 

[Cat_Herder]

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?pictureid=7718&albumid=1125&dl=1288324193&thumb=1

Do you not comprehend what Jesus said? The one who enters the kingdom of heaven (which, in context, is the earthly, Millennial Kingdom to come - it’s not addressed to His church He is presently building)

[BIBLEDRB]John 18:36[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 3:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 11:16-20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 9:32-33[/BIBLEDRB]

is the one who does the will of His Father in heaven. He says that on that day many will try to enter it based on their works. Above they appeal to Christ to allow them in because of the “mighty deeds” they claim they did in His name. But what is His response to them? “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.” Why? Because what is required for entrance is not works but the possession of Divine righteousness: Rom 3:22 “even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 25:32-44[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus said: "John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."It states nothing about water baptism. It says: “…even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” The ONE is Jesus Christ and the obedience is His death on the cross where our sins (all of them) were imputed to Him and He died TO them, once for all. And in exchange the “righteousness of God” is imputed to the one who believed (2 Cor. 5:21)It stated nothing about grace nor water baptism.

[BIBLEDRB]Eph. 2:8[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]James 2:18[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

The CONTEXT is righteousness. A “credited” righteousness based not on works but FAITH alone:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 7:9-13[/BIBLEDRB]

Rom 4:5-6 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:12-16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:16-24[/BIBLEDRB]

Can you show me where the phrase “state of grace” is in the Scriptures? Where Christ or any of the Apostles used that phrase?

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:4[/BIBLEDRB]

Actually, that’s a phrase taken from your own tradition where it is connected to the teaching that at the time of water baptism “sanctified grace” is infused into the soul of the water baptized

[BIBLEDRB]Titus 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:36[/BIBLEDRB]

and it is required of the Catholic to maintain it (i.e., avoiding any unrepentant “mortal” sin) until the moment of his death.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

You read that doctrine into it.That’s not the gospel message (Acts 16:30-31).

[BIBLEDRB]ACTS 2:38[/BIBLEDRB]

Nor the words of Christ Himself (Jn. 3:14-18).

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 16:16[/BIBLEDRB]

The object of saving faith, according to the Scriptures, is the Person and, once for all, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. A faith that lifts us outside of ourselves and looks to and trusts completely in the “finished” work of Another - to the glory of God.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 6:46[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Calvin_95]

Jesus through His human form told us to confess to His priests. These are not priests of the Law, but rather priests of the New Testament, that is Love. We did not establish a priesthood or a new priesthood as you might think. CHRIST DID! .

You make a great claim here; now you must show it from Scripture the establishment of the Catholic priesthood.

**For the priesthood established in Scripture is as follows; ironically from the pen of Peter through the Vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit:

** 1 Peter 2:4-12 “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God in Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders rejecteth, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But** ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood**, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

Incorporate the versus in Hebrews previously laid out for you and you cannot establish the Catholic priesthood from the use of God’s word; it is impossible. With out a priesthood established by God, then how does this effect everything? In every way in my understanding of the biblical priesthood that exists under the New Covenant and God did not make this obscure did He? Why does the Bible say there is only one intercessor; divine intercessor, between man and God the MAN Christ Jesus? Is He not interceeding because of the ACCUSER? Yes.

Why does Jesus say this in John 14:6? Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. What doe sVicar mean? Substitute. Does Creator use a creature as a substitue? May it never be! The purpose and ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict men of sin and point them to who? Christ. Add Colossians 2:4-12 to the mix as well and much more can be added.

I for you trust and put my faith fully & completely in the work of Christ and I am part of His only established priesthood and He is my High Priest who makes intercession on my behald and praise God it is not up to a man or group of men to whom I dare to put my trust; to each their own; for each will give an account and I will stand on the rockbed foundation of Jesus Christ; not on the precepts of men. Praise God for the clarity of His word and by His gift of faith in Christ by His gift of grace. I know most will disagree; to each their own understanding; i have laid mine out based on His Word alone.

 

[paul_c]

You make a great claim here; now you must show it from Scripture the establishment of the Catholic priesthood.

**For the priesthood established in Scripture is as follows; ironically from the pen of Peter through the Vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit:

** 1 Peter 2:4-12 “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God in Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders rejecteth, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But** ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood**, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

Incorporate the versus in Hebrews previously laid out for you and you cannot establish the Catholic priesthood from the use of God’s word; it is impossible. With out a priesthood established by God, then how does this effect everything? In every way in my understanding of the biblical priesthood that exists under the New Covenant and God did not make this obscure did He? Why does the Bible say there is only one intercessor; divine intercessor, between man and God the MAN Christ Jesus? Is He not interceeding because of the ACCUSER? Yes.

Why does Jesus say this in John 14:6? Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. What doe sVicar mean? Substitute. Does Creator use a creature as a substitue? May it never be! The purpose and ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict men of sin and point them to who? Christ. Add Colossians 2:4-12 to the mix as well and much more can be added.

I for you trust and put my faith fully & completely in the work of Christ and I am part of His only established priesthood and He is my High Priest who makes intercession on my behald and praise God it is not up to a man or group of men to whom I dare to put my trust; to each their own; for each will give an account and I will stand on the rockbed foundation of Jesus Christ; not on the precepts of men. Praise God for the clarity of His word and by His gift of faith in Christ by His gift of grace. I know most will disagree; to each their own understanding; i have laid mine out based on His Word alone.

Do you deny that Jesus set up certain men to preach to the world in his place? Do you not recognize that he named twelve Apostles? And that he sent these men out to do the works that he was doing, even before he had been sacrificed on the cross?

And do you not recognize that he added St. Paul to their number when he appeared to him on the road to Damascus? And that in Acts, Barnabas is also called an apostle?

And do you not recognize the great commission in Matthew 28: 18-20:

18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Now if you recognize the role of Apostles as Jesus’ representatives, which is undeniable if you read the New Testament, then you have witnessed the establishment of the Catholic priesthood.

As for the extension of that to more men, you only have to look at the letters from St. Paul to Titius and Timothy to see that this is scriptural…

 

[Cat_Herder]

You make a great claim here; now you must show it from Scripture the establishment of the Catholic priesthood.

This has already been asked and answered.

 

[Tomster]

This has already been asked and answered.

And, if I may succinctly add, Holy Orders is a sacrament by which priests of the New Alliance are appointed. Christ, by right of nature and by divine vocation, is the High Priest of the New Testament. But, because He was to withdraw visible presence and wanted to render visible and perpetual (as human nature requires) the application of His saving work, from the first days of His public life Jesus selected disciples whom He lovingly trained at His school. To crown, as it were, this divine training, He instituted the sacrifice of the Mass and, by a supernatural investiture expressed in these words: “Do this in commemoration of me” (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24), He transmitted to the Apostles the priestly power of renewing the unbloody offering in perpetual commemoration of the bloody immolation of Calvary, thereby constituting them representatives of men to God (ascendant mediation). On the day of the Resurrection, and on that of the Ascension, He conferred on them the power of remitting sins (John 20:21-23) and the threefold power of teaching, ministry, and government (Matthew 28:19-20), thus establishing them representatives of God with men (descendant mediation).

 

[Tomster]

How do you reconcile that a group of men are the interpreters of Scripture, when by contrast Scripture states quite another?

“Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name. 12 I will give thanks to You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And will glorify Your name forever.”

“The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the decrees of the Lord are sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever; the ordinances of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey, and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.”

"For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; so that they might not look with their eyes, and listen with their ears, and understand with their heart and turn - and I would heal them.’ "

Then he called the crowd to him and said to them, "Listen and understand:

Then he called the crowd again and said to them, "Listen to me, all of you, and understand:

And becoming aware of it, Jesus said to them, "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened?

But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Why would God hide the understanding of His word to a common person? Answer: He wouldn’t unless He chose to do so in His sovereignty.

Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

"Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Very truly, I tell you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."

**14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. ** – Do you see that the natural man, the unregenerate cannot understand, but the Christian can and does understand. There are many many other passages that reflect this same concept about who can understand Scripture and How they can understand. What did Luke state about when Peter was preaching?

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

How could the Holy Spirit rest on anyone who does not believe and how can one believe that which they did not understand? Impossible!

There is an explicit statement in the Roman Catechism, compiled upon the conclusion of the Council of Trent at the command of Pope St. Pius V: “The Son of God appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, and others to be shepherds and teachers, who were to make known the word of life, that we might be no more like children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14)”, an apt description
of Protestantism I might add, “but might be built upon the firm foundation of faith into an habitation of God in the Spirit (Ephesians 2:22). In order however that no one might regard the word of God as merely the doctrine of men, but should receive it as the word of Christ (for this it indeed is), our Redeemer imparted so great a dignity to the teaching office of the Church, that He said: ‘He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me’ (Luke 10:16). These words applied not only to the persons to whom our Savior addressed them, but to all their legitimate successors in this teaching office, and He promised to remain with them all days, even to the consummation of the world (Matthew 28:20).” Thus the legitimate successors of the Apostles exercise the authority to teach as long as they in communion with the supreme Head of the Church.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

 

[Tomster]

Paying attention? I’ve studied your religion. Probably more than you have.

And you base this statement on what may I ask?

Please explain yourself.

 

[moondweller]

Thats a bold statement from someone who regularly misrepresents what we believe. If you really understood what Catholicism teaches, you would desist with the constant refrain of “works based religion”

I don’t misrepresent the doctrinal stance of Catholicism in respect to works and salvation. I fully understand it.

Do you really understand that Love is what drives Catholics? Love of God, Love of Jesus, Love of the Church, Love of neighbor? Do you have any concept of how beautiful that love can be to the devout Catholic? And how we build each other up in the faith? You know sometimes I watch the people at mass and am absolutely amazed at the love there between parent and child, spouses, and particularly between some our older couples.

Do you understand that the Church is a service organization, providing advice, counsel, and most importantly, administering the sacraments to the faithful, all the while protecting the truths entrusted to it by Christ?

Do you have any idea of the depths of devotion that are available to Catholics, honed through 2000 years of religious life. Have you ever been to a mass and felt the holiness in the church? Or participated in the rosary, the stations of the cross or most importantly, eucharistic adoration? Have you watch EWTN? Have you read the Catechism?

Have you ever read the lives of the saints and seen what levels of holiness can be acheived on earth. Do you recognize the sacrifices and dedication of our priests and religious who give up money, freedom, and families for the service of the people and the glory of God?

These are of course rhetorical questions. Don’t feel compelled to answer, I just want to make that point that your thousands of post on this website do not convey that you understand the essence of Catholicism and I am pretty sure that most of the other Catholics here would agree.

You’re presenting an emotional argument here. The issue on this thread is a theological one: “Faith alone or not.”

I don’t deny and certainly respect the works of Catholic organizations such as “Catholic Services,” and the sincerity of devout Catholics toward their religion. But the issue here is still a theological one: Are we saved through “Faith alone or not.” The answer must come from an objective source and therefore I appeal to the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures alone.

On this theological issue the Scriptures clearly state: “by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works” Since they reveal that all the requirements for God to save men “by grace” (unmerited favor) was met by Another: the Man Christ Jesus. And so what He requires from man for salvation is faith in Him alone. The One who met the requirements and completed the work.

Faith alone is a Biblical principle that goes all the way back to Abraham (Gen. 15:6). The object of faith, this side of the cross, being the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Works, on man’s behalf, are important but they’re done by those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them. IOW, those whom God already saved “by grace through faith” alone (see Eph. 2:8-10).

But the core problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a completed, Divine act) in its theological construct, since it sees salvation as a life time process which includes and requires works on the part of men for it to be achieved. Salvation, in Catholicism, being a “hope so,” future event based on one’s present performance.

 

[Tomster]

I don’t misrepresent the doctrinal stance of Catholicism in respect to works and salvation. I fully understand it.You’re presenting an emotional argument here. The issue on this thread is a theological one: “Faith alone or not.”

I don’t deny and certainly respect the works of Catholic organizations such as “Catholic Services,” and the sincerity of devout Catholics toward their religion. But the issue here is still a theological one: Are we saved through “Faith alone or not.” The answer must come from an objective source and therefore I appeal to the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures alone.

On this theological issue the Scriptures clearly state: “by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works” Since they reveal that all the requirements for God to save men “by grace” (unmerited favor) was met by Another: the Man Christ Jesus. And so what He requires from man for salvation is faith in Him alone. The One who met the requirements and completed the work.

Faith alone is a Biblical principle that goes all the way back to Abraham (Gen. 15:6). The object of faith, this side of the cross, being the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Works, on man’s behalf, are important but they’re done by those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them. IOW, those whom God already saved “by grace through faith” alone (see Eph. 2:8-10).

But the core problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a completed, Divine act) in its theological construct, since it sees salvation as a life time process which includes and requires works on the part of men for it to be achieved. Salvation, in Catholicism, being a “hope so,” future event based on one’s present performance.

You certainly do understand little and you also misunderstand alot.

Salvation can be lost through unrepented serious sin. But, then, we’ve been through this before, haven’t we?