Faith alone or not?

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Would Abrahams faith have been alive or dead had he not done what was asked of him?
You guys always have to revert to hypotheticals, don’t you? Do you think God, “who knows the heart,” had to wait for Abraham to demonstrate his faith before God could justify Him? Gen. 15:6 states emphatically that Abraham believed in the Lord and He reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness. We see this glorious example in the N.T:

Peter testifies: "Acts 15:8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;” God knew Abraham’s heart (the seat of faith, Rom. 10:10) and justified him based on his faith (belief) in Him alone. So it was also with the Gentiles to whom Peter preached the gospel.
 
I have not read this entire thread but I would like to throw out my thoughts. I apologize about the length of them.

I think we go too far when we try to define how faith and works are related. We are attempting to explain God’s plan, which is completely beyond our comprehension. That being the case, I will presume to set out my understanding.

In the first place, I would not say we are saved by faith. Instead we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is not the cause of our salvation. Rather it is the means by which we accept God’s free offer of salvation. Our faith does not merit salvation anymore than our works do.
"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”
(Luk 17:9-10 NASB)
Paul calls justification and salvation a free gift three times in Romans.
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
(Rom 5:15-16 NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 6:23 NASB)
It might appear redundant to call something a free gift because if you pay or earn something, it is neither a gift or free. Paul appears to be emphasizing that nothing we can do to merit or earn salvation. Jesus, Himself, tells us that we should not expect anything for any of our efforts.

In a number of places Paul indicates that works do not merit salvation.
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
(Rom 4:4-8 NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 NASB)
Note that with respect to works, Paul first excludes them as a cause of our salvation. He then immediately talks about works as the purpose for which we are saved.

(to be continued)
 
(continued)
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
(Tit 3:4-8 NASB)
Paul doesn’t mention faith at all here. However he does tell us that we are not saved by deeds we have done in righteousness. This must mean works done after justification as otherwise they couldn’t be done in righteousness. But after saying we are not saved by works he stresses the doing of good deeds.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
(Rom 11:6 NASB)
Basing something on works is the very antithesis of grace.
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
(Gal 3:1-5 NASB)
Here Paul emphasizes that we continue in salvation by faith, not by works. It is often said that when Paul speaks about works of the law he is taking about the Mosaic law dealing with circumcision and other such things but if we look at where he mentions specifics, it appears that it is not such things with which he is dealing.
But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written.
(Rom 2:17-24 NASB)
Theft, adultery and idolatry are not the ceremonial law so Paul includes everything when he writes of works.

All this does not mean that good works are not required. Even John Calvin does not suggest this as he writes:
We, indeed, allow that good works are required for righteousness; we only take away from them the power of conferring righteousness, because they cannot stand before the tribunal of God.
ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom45.vi.iii.vii.html

Good works are part of a living faith. By them we work out our salvation; not work for our salvation. Good works are a necessary result of a true faith and are the evidence of such a faith.

It is in this way that Paul and James can be reconciled.

James writes:
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jas 2:24 NASB)
The context of this statement must be considered though.
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jas 2:14-24 NASB)
James say Abraham was justified by works. This seems to contradict what Paul says.
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
(Rom 4:1-4 NASB)
James says Abraham was justified by works while Paul says if he was it was not before God. That means that Abraham’s works must have justified him before someone other than God. That would seem to be before other men, which fits in with the rest of what James says.

(to be continued)
 
(continued0

James refers to someone who says he has faith and showing his faith by works. We know too that Abraham was declared righteous by God before he was willing to sacrifice Isaac. The sacrifice was to show us the extent of Abraham’s faith. Works as the result or as evidence of faith also fits with Jesus’ statement about knowing a good tree by its fruits.
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
(Mat 7:16-20 NASB)
It is not the fruits that makes the tree good but the fruits shows that the tree is good.

Those in the early church often used a similar analysis when looking at Paul’s writings versus James’.
“Not so our father Abraham. This passage of scripture is meant to draw our attention to the difference. We confess that the holy patriarch was pleasing to God; this is what our faith affirms about him. So true is it that we can declare and be certain that he did have grounds for pride before God, and this is what the apostle tells us. It is quite certain, he says, and we know it for sure, that Abraham has grounds for pride before God. But if he had been justified by works, he would have had grounds for pride, but not before God. However, since we know he does have grounds for pride before God, it follows that he was not justified on the basis of works. So if Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified?” The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.
Augustine (John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 3, Vol. 15, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B., Expositions of the Psalms 1-32, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2000), pp. 364-365.)
What can we say to those who insist that Abraham was justified by works because he was ready to sacrifice his son Isaac on the altar? Abraham was already an old man when God promised him that he would have a son and that his descendants would be as countless as the stars of the sky. Abraham piously believed that all things are possible with God and so exercised this faith. God reckoned him to be righteous on this account and gave Abraham a reward worthy of such a godly mind, viz., the forgiveness of his previous sins…So even if Abraham was also justified by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac, this must be regarded as an evident demonstration of a faith which was already very strong
**Cyril of Alexandria **(Explanation of the Letter to the Romans (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 106.))
For if the law is given not for the righteous but for the unrighteous, whoever does not sin is a friend of the law. For him faith alone is the way by which he is made perfect. For others mere avoidance of evil will not gain them any advantage with God unless they also believe in God, so that they may be righteous on both counts. For the one righteousness is temporal; the other is eternal.
**Ambrosiater **(Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 65)
Abraham had such a vibrant faith in God that he was ready to do whatever God wanted him to. This is why his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness, and it was in order that we might know the full meaning of this that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. It was by his perfect accomplishment of God’s command that the faith which he had in his heart was shown to be perfect.
Bede (Concerning the Epistle of James) (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 32.)
Good works are witnesses to the Christian faith, otherwise a Christian cannot prove that he has that faith. If he cannot prove it, it must be considered completely nonexistent.
Salvian the Presbyter (On the Goverance of God 4.2 Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 30.)
If someone does not show by his deeds that he believes in God, his profession of faith is worthless. For it is not the one who just says that he is the Lord’s who is a believer, but the one who loves the Lord so much that he is prepared to risk even death because of his faith in Him.
**Andreas **(Catena, Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 28.)
Faith is shown by deeds like the features of the face in a mirror.
Symeon the New Theologian (Discourses 29.4, Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 30.)

(to be continued)
 
(continued)

What then are we to make of passages that say we will be judged according to our works? First it means that we will be judged according to the evidence provided by our works. More important though, it will show us that God is right and just in His judgements. Paul writes:
What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”
(Rom 3:3-4 NASB)
and
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Rom 3:25-26 NASB)
Similarly in the judgement of the goats and the sheep, their works, or lack of them show why they were judged as they were.

Putting merit into our relationship with God introduces many complexities, which I believe leads the Catholic Church into distinguishing among strict, condign and congruous merit. Even then look at some questions that arise from merit when looking at indulgences.

Indulgences are supposed to draw on the treasury of merits which includes the excess merits of the saints. How can merit be applied on behalf of another unless you are looking at strict merit. Also referring to excess merits suggests some minimum, without which how can there be an excess. Then what is the minimum?
 
(continued)

What then are we to make of passages that say we will be judged according to our works? First it means that we will be judged according to the evidence provided by our works. More important though, it will show us that God is right and just in His judgements. Paul writes:

and

Similarly in the judgement of the goats and the sheep, their works, or lack of them show why they were judged as they were.

Putting merit into our relationship with God introduces many complexities, which I believe leads the Catholic Church into distinguishing among strict, condign and congruous merit. Even then look at some questions that arise from merit when looking at indulgences.

Indulgences are supposed to draw on the treasury of merits which includes the excess merits of the saints. How can merit be applied on behalf of another unless you are looking at strict merit. Also referring to excess merits suggests some minimum, without which how can there be an excess. Then what is the minimum?
It seems to me God’s plan is clear…we are saved by works and not faith alone. Seems pretty straight forward
 
I have not read this entire thread but I would like to throw out my thoughts. I apologize about the length of them.
Wow - I’ve never seen a four page post before!! I don’t know how anyone can respond to everything you have written. Even if I cut it down to one page at a time I’m going to be posting more than a page myself. So, I don’t know if this is doable or not.
I think we go too far when we try to define how faith and works are related. We are attempting to explain God’s plan, which is completely beyond our comprehension. That being the case, I will presume to set out my understanding.
With all due respect, I don’t quite understand why you first say we go too far but then you go ahead and go too far. But I can see what you’re saying - that we can’t understand divine matters when we aren’t divine. Still, aren’t we supposed to try? So please, go ahead. I’ll read your whole post. 🙂
In the first place, I would not say we are saved by faith. Instead we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is not the cause of our salvation. Rather it is the means by which we accept God’s free offer of salvation. Our faith does not merit salvation anymore than our works do.
I agree that we are not saved by faith. Jesus died for everyone on this whole big earth, not just those fortunate or lucky enough to know about Him. Without knowing about His existence one cannot have faith in Him. Yet as He died for everyone, even those who don’t have faith in Him must have the chance to be saved.

We don’t deserve anything. Anything good that comes from us comes via God’s grace, by His love for us. If anything we probably deserve to be annihilated. We certainly didn’t deserve to have Jesus die for us. He took our punishment. All because of love for everyone.

The cause of our salvation is Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross and His Resurrection. Jesus paid the price of admission into heaven for everyone who lived before and after His time on earth as God incarnate.
Paul calls justification and salvation a free gift three times in Romans.
Given to us from God who so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son to pay the price for our sinfulness.
It might appear redundant to call something a free gift because if you pay or earn something, it is neither a gift or free. Paul appears to be emphasizing that nothing we can do to merit or earn salvation. Jesus, Himself, tells us that we should not expect anything for any of our efforts.
Again, all I can say is that we deserve nothing. Not salvation, not even life. Everything we have is because of God.
In a number of places Paul indicates that works do not merit salvation.
Of course they don’t. Nothing we do merits salvation! We are saved because of Jesus’ sacrifice.
Note that with respect to works, Paul first excludes them as a cause of our salvation. He then immediately talks about works as the purpose for which we are saved.
(to be continued)
Again, I have to repeat that we are saved because of Jesus’ sacrifice and nothing we have done or believed on our own.

I’m not a bible scholar. I won’t respond to what you have referenced in your next pages, except for the part where you mention the Catholic Church and merit. But I know that I don’t deserve heaven. Even if I spent every second from now on until my dying moment doing nothing but good works I still would not deserve heaven. Even my ability to do good works comes from God. Anything good I do is because of God’s grace and His love for me.
 
Of course they don’t. Nothing we do merits salvation! We are saved because of Jesus’ sacrifice.
I agree but to me the Council of Trent seems to say otherwise.
CANON XXXII**.-If any one saith**, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or,** that the said justified, by the good works which he performs **through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html
 
I agree but to me the Council of Trent seems to say otherwise.
Actually, you have just taken your reference out of context compared to the total declaration of the document. Perhaps this will help;

First quote:
“For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.
For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]
For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]
This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give.
Whence also they hear immediately the word of Christ:
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[42]”

Second quote:
“…Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]”
 
The works that complete our faith are the works of charity we perform in the love of others, humbly, never boastfully, for our love of God. The council of trent in the quote you referred to originally was dispelling the notion that these works of Charity were somehow automatic as though free will was removed from man by God and man could not cooperate willingly out of love of God to live that life of charity, or by the same token choose to abandon such a life of charity. Scripture and the writings of the ECFs firmly support the council’s declaration.

Although it may seem cumbersome to some, it would be beneficial to you to read the entire document so it will not be taken out of context as your reference seems to suggest.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm
 
(continued)
Putting merit into our relationship with God introduces many complexities, which I believe leads the Catholic Church into distinguishing among strict, condign and congruous merit. Even then look at some questions that arise from merit when looking at indulgences.

Indulgences are supposed to draw on the treasury of merits which includes the excess merits of the saints. How can merit be applied on behalf of another unless you are looking at strict merit. Also referring to excess merits suggests some minimum, without which how can there be an excess. Then what is the minimum?
OK, here I think you really have gone too far, as you stated in the first page of your post. Discussing God and/or the bible introduces many complexities no matter who you are or which church to which you belong. You didn’t say this was a bad thing. Do you think it’s not appropriate for the Church that God founded to teach the differing forms of merit (which are also used in areas completely absent of the concept of God)?

Nature of merit:
…the property of merit can be found only in works that are positively good, whilst bad works, whether they benefit or injure a third party, contain nothing but demerit (demeritum) and consequently deserve punishment. Thus the good workman certainly deserves the reward of his labour, and the thief deserves the punishment of his crime.

From this it naturally follows that merit and reward, demerit and punishment, bear to each other the relation of deed and return; they are correlative terms of which one postulates the other. Reward is due to merit, and the reward is in proportion to the merit. This leads to the third condition, viz., that merit supposes two distinct persons, the one who acquires the merit and the other who rewards it; for the idea of self-reward is just as contradictory as that of self-punishment.

Lastly, the relation between merit and reward furnishes the intrinsic reason why in the matter of service and its remuneration the guiding norm can be only the virtue of justice, and not disinterested kindness or pure mercy; for it would destroy the very notion of reward to conceive of it as a free gift of bounty (cf. Romans 11:6). If, however, salutary acts can in virtue of the Divine justice give the right to an eternal reward, this is possible only because they themselves have their root in gratuitous grace, and consequently are of their very nature dependent ultimately on grace, as the Council of Trent emphatically declares (Sess. VI, cap. xvi, in Denzinger, 10th ed., Freiburg, 1908, n. 810): “the Lord . . . whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things, which are His own gifts, be their merits.”

Ethics and theology clearly distinguish two kinds of merit:

•Condign merit or merit in the strict sense of the word (meritum adœquatum sive de condigno), and
•congruous or quasi-merit (meritum inadœquatum sive de congruo).
Condign merit supposes an equality between service and return; it is measured by commutative justice (justitia commutativa), and thus gives a real claim to a reward.

Congruous merit, owing to its inadequacy and the lack of intrinsic proportion between the service and the recompense, claims a reward only on the ground of equity.

The essential difference between meritum de condigno and meritum de congruo is based on the fact that, besides those works which claim a remuneration under pain of violating strict justice (as in contracts between employer and employee, in buying and selling, etc.), there are also other meritorious works which at most are entitled to reward or honour for reasons of equity (ex œquitate) or mere distributive justice (ex iustitia distributiva), as in the case of gratuities and military decorations.

From an ethical point of view the difference practically amounts to this that, if the reward due to condign merit be withheld, there is a violation of right and justice and the consequent obligation in conscience to make restitution, while, in the case of congruous merit, to withhold the reward involves no violation of right and no obligation to restore, it being merely an offence against what is fitting or a matter of personal discrimination (acceptio personarum). Hence the reward of congruous merit always depends in great measure on the kindness and liberality of the giver, though not purely and simply on his good will.

In applying these notions of merit to man’s relation to God it is especially necessary to keep in mind the fundamental truth that the virtue of justice cannot be brought forward as the basis of a real title for a Divine reward either in the natural or in the supernatural order. The simple reason is that God, being self-existent, absolutely independent, and sovereign, can be in no respect bound in justice with regard to his creatures.


Properly speaking, man possesses nothing of his own; all that he has and all that he does is a gift of God, and, since God is infinitely self-sufficient, there is no advantage or benefit which man can by his services confer upon Him.

Hence on the part of God there can only be question of a gratuitous promise of reward for certain good works. For such works He owes the promised reward, not in justice or equity, but solely because He has freely bound himself, i.e., because of His own attributes of veracity and fidelity. It is on this ground alone that we can speak of Divine justice at all, and apply the principle: Do ut des (cf. St. Augustine, Serm. clviii, c. ii, in P.L., XXXVIII, 863).

newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm
[all italics, underlines, and bolding are added]

-----continued in next post (didn’t I say this would happen?)-----
 
-----continued-----

"…when Catholic theology speaks of “meriting justification” it is referring to a “gracious meriting,” not a legal meriting such as was the case in Pharisaical theology. St. Thomas Aquinas, whose books were put on display at the Council of Trent so that the Tridentine divines could readily consult his works, taught that there were two kinds of merit: strict merit and condign merit. A third category is an offshoot of condign merit call congruent merit. Here’s what Aquinas said concerning the major distinction between the two classes of merit:

"Note the difference between meritum de condigno and that which is said to be merit in strict sense. Even though both bespeak some right to reward, they do so in different ways. Merit in strict justice implies an absolute equality without any grace given to the person who merits. But merit de condigno involves an equality which arises from grace which has been given to the one meriting (Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 114, a. 1, ad 3).

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/justification/horton-rebutal5.htm
[all italics, underlines, and bolding are added]

Do you disagree with what has been quoted here?

As for indulgences, that really deserves its own thread IMHO.
 
Actually, you have just taken your reference out of context compared to the total declaration of the document. Perhaps this will help;

First quote:
“For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.
For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]
For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]
This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give.
Whence also they hear immediately the word of Christ:
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[42]”

Second quote:
“…Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]”
 
Although it may seem cumbersome, it would be beneficial to you to read the entire document so it will not be taken out of context as your reference seems to suggest.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm
I have read the entire section on justification. It does not distuinguish the types of merit as Aquinas does. In addition, aren’t the canons the infallible statements of the council?
 
I agree but to me the Council of Trent seems to say otherwise.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html
I think there may be a problem here and it is one that we are all guilty of sometimes. You’ve quite possibly taken this quote out of context. You cover yourself well by saying “seems to say otherwise” and you might be right - it seems to say otherwise. But does it really?

If you really want to discuss the Council of Trent I agree with the previous poster who stated that you should read the entire document. I haven’t read it myself and I have problems sometimes when I take passages or quotes and then find out I’ve taken them completely out of context.

It might seem cumbersome but it appears that you have put quite a bit of work into your post and can easily handle it.

Because I haven’t read it myself I can’t comment on your quote at this point. I’ll try to find the time to read it as it is obviously important.

Right now I’m in a lot of pain and groggy from pain meds so I’m going to have to sign off.

God bless!! 🙂

P.S. I just now glanced at it and it really is cumbersome!! :eek:
 
I have read the entire section on justification. It does not distuinguish the types of merit as Aquinas does. In addition, aren’t the canons the infallible statements of the council?
What do you find failed in the quotes I offered you and are you saying you do not understand your reference in unison and in context with the rest of the document?
 
That’s not SAVED. That’s simply a "start over

Sounds a lot like “born again”. 😃
moondweller;7245805:
."“Saved,” according to the Scriptures, … .
Certainl according you your perception of them, which requires that you disregard a great man of them, and find ways that they “do not apply” to salvation, in order to make your theory work.
Catholicism sees “salvation” as a process beginning with water baptism (a work, no faith in Christ required, especially for infants),
It is indeed sad that you find it necessary to misrepresent our faith in order to make sense out of yours. It seems to me that, if your faith was able to stand on it’s own, then it would be able to do so without such misrepresentations.

Baptism is a source of God’s grace, by which we are saved through faith. In it, we are circumcised “without hands”, and sealed for the day of redemption. The Catholic Church, however, contrary to what you present, does not baptize anyone without a profession of faith, including infants. Their parents make a professio fo faith on their behalf.
The “process” then continues with required works all the way up to death and then into “Purgatory” where you must personally suffer for your “venial” sins. So, you see, it truly is a works process from beginning to end.
I can see your point. It is true that God is at work in us constantly to will and to do His good pleasure. Day to day, so long as we are in this world, we are conformed to his image.
Whereas salvation in the Scriptures is revealed to be gifted, by grace through faith,not as a result of works
" (Eph. 2:8-9).

And that is written in the Scriptures because the NT is aCatholic book, written by, for, and about Catholics. This is the Catholic concept of salvation. 👍
Water baptism being a public testimony of their inward faith in Christ.
It is always interesting to me that the Scripture nowhere indicates this.
It wasn’t the baptism that saved them, it was believing the good news message concerning Christ (see Acts 8:12; 16:30-31; 18:8).You Catholics don’t get SAVED through baptism. You get a “start over” and then you must meet all the necessary requirements. “Salvation” being a future event based on your present performance.
The Apostles never separated the two, Moon. Believing the good news and baptism go togehter, and always have. St. Peter does say we are saved through baptism,and we believe him. 😃

Yes, we get “born again” through water and Spirit, however, salvation is something that God intends for us to have here and now, as well as there and then.

It is ok if you do not wish to embrace the Apostolic faith, but spreading lies about it is really not good for your soul.
 
You guys always have to revert to hypotheticals, don’t you? Do you think God, “who knows the heart,” had to wait for Abraham to demonstrate his faith before God could justify Him? Gen. 15:6 states emphatically that Abraham believed in the Lord and He reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness. We see this glorious example in the N.T:

Peter testifies: "Acts 15:8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;” God knew Abraham’s heart (the seat of faith, Rom. 10:10) and justified him based on his faith (belief) in Him alone. So it was also with the Gentiles to whom Peter preached the gospel.
You claim salvation is through faith in Christ alone.

Abraham did not know Christ.

That is not a hypothetical. It is a reality, but for your argument it is also a fatality.
 
-----continued-----

"…when Catholic theology speaks of “meriting justification” it is referring to a “gracious meriting,” not a legal meriting such as was the case in Pharisaical theology. St. Thomas Aquinas, whose books were put on display at the Council of Trent so that the Tridentine divines could readily consult his works, taught that there were two kinds of merit: strict merit and condign merit. A third category is an offshoot of condign merit call congruent merit. Here’s what Aquinas said concerning the major distinction between the two classes of merit:

"Note the difference between meritum de condigno and that which is said to be merit in strict sense. Even though both bespeak some right to reward, they do so in different ways. Merit in strict justice implies an absolute equality without any grace given to the person who merits. But merit de condigno involves an equality which arises from grace which has been given to the one meriting (Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 114, a. 1, ad 3).

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/justification/horton-rebutal5.htm
[all italics, underlines, and bolding are added]

Do you disagree with what has been quoted here?

As for indulgences, that really deserves its own thread IMHO.
I understand what Aquinas says but merit of any kind and grace are incompatable to me. However, I feel that the difference between Catholics and most Protestants in this area is one of semantics. Protestants believe works necessarily follow true faith but don’t merit anything, while Catholics say the works themselves are gifts of grace and only in that sense have merit.
 
You claim salvation is through faith in Christ alone.

Abraham did not know Christ.

That is not a hypothetical. It is a reality, but for your argument it is also a fatality.
Nevertheless he was saved by grace through faith in the one who had been promised in the Garden of Eden. Augustine said:
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; since there is none other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved; and in Him has God defined unto all men their faith, in that He has raised Him from the dead. Now without this faith, that is to say, without a belief in the one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; without faith, I say, in His resurrection by which God has given assurance to all men and which no man could of course truly believe were it not for His incarnation and death; without faith, therefore, in the incarnation and death and resurrection of Christ, the Christian verity unhesitatingly declares that the ancient saints could not possibly have been cleansed from sin so as to have become holy, and justified by the grace of God. And this is true both of the saints who are mentioned in Holy Scripture, and of those also who are not indeed mentioned therein, but must yet be supposed to have existed,— either before the deluge, or in the interval between that event and the giving of the law, or in the period of the law itself,— not merely among the children of Israel, as the prophets, but even outside that nation, as for instance Job. For it was by the self-same faith in the one Mediator that the hearts of these, too, were cleansed, and there also was shed abroad in them the love of God by the Holy Ghost, who blows where He lists, not following men’s merits, but even producing these very merits Himself. For the grace of God will in no wise exist unless it be wholly free.
(On the Grace of Christ, and On Original Sin, Book 2, Chapter 28)
newadvent.org/fathers/15062.htm

and
If the law justifies, Abraham was not justified, since he lived long before the law. Since they cannot say this, they are forced to admit that a man is justified not by works of the law but by faith. And he compels us to understand that all the ancients who were justified were justified from the same faith. For as we are saved by believing, partly in a past event, that is the first coming of the Lord, and partly in a future one, that is, his second coming, they believed the whole of it, that is, both coming events. The Holy Spirit reveals this for their salvation.
(Epistle to the Galatians,Thomas Oden ed. ., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VIII: Galatians, Ephesians Philippians, (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1999), p. 43.))

Similarly Bede wrote:
If the salvation of the world is in no other but in Christ alone, then the fathers of the Old Testament were saved by the incarnation and passion of the same Redeemer, by which we also believe and hope to be saved. For although the sacramental signs differed by reason of the times, nevertheless there was agreement in one and the same faith, because through the prophets they learned as something to come the same dispensation of Christ which we learned through the apostles as something which has been done. For there is no redemption of human captivity [to sinfulness] except in the blood of him who gave himself as a redemption for all.
(Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Francis Martin ed. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament V Acts (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006), p. 49.)
 
I have not read this entire thread but I would like to throw out my thoughts. I apologize about the length of them.

I think we go too far when we try to define how faith and works are related. We are attempting to explain God’s plan, which is completely beyond our comprehension. That being the case, I will presume to set out my understanding.

In the first place, I would not say we are saved by faith. Instead we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is not the cause of our salvation. Rather it is the means by which we accept God’s free offer of salvation. Our faith does not merit salvation anymore than our works do.
Doing good so far.
In a number of places Paul indicates that works do not merit salvation.
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
(Rom 4:4-8 NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 NASB)
Notice that in both passages, what is denounced is salvation by works alone. Not salvation by works in addition to something else. Now look at this infamous passage:

Romans 3:28 (NRSV)

For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

What does “apart from” mean?

New Oxford American Dictionary said:
apart from
1 except for : the whole world seemed to be sleeping, apart from Barbara.
**2 in addition to; as well as : **quite apart from all the work, he had such financial problems.
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary:
Definition of APART FROM

: other than : besides, except for.

BESIDES
1
: other than, except
2
: together with <a decision that, besides being practical, is morally right>
“Apart from” means in addition to, not instead of. So Rom 3:28 could read “we hold that a person is justified by faith as well as works prescribed by the law,” or “we hold that a person is justified by faith together with works prescribed by the law.”

Which is exactly what James said.

As for Calvin…
John Calvin:
We, indeed, allow that good works are required for righteousness; we only take away from them the power of conferring righteousness, because they cannot stand before the tribunal of God.
Calvin, however, distinguishes “righteousness” from “justification”/“salvation.” In fact, Calvin teaches that salvation is a result of predestination alone and that faith is an infallible marker of predestination. He’s wrong on both counts.
 
Nevertheless he was saved by grace through faith in the one who had been promised in the Garden of Eden.
None of the Old Testament saints had a personal faith in Christ that would include reference to the finished work of Calvary.

Recall that Moon says Catholics aren’t saved because our faith in Christ is not “personal” or “total” enough, because we supposedly don’t think that Calvary was a completed work.

If you (and Augustine et al) are right, Catholics are saved and Moon is wrong.
 
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