Faith alone or not?

[SyCarl]

Doing good so far.

Notice that in both passages, what is denounced is salvation by works alone. Not salvation by works in addition to something else. Now look at this infamous passage:

Romans 3:28 (NRSV)

For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

Let’s see how the Catholic Douhay-Rheims Bible translates this passage.

For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
(Rom 3:28 DRB)

 

[Pax]

Can you show me where it says God reckoned the act of circumcising the men of his household to Abraham as righteousness? Genesis 15:6 states differently. As does Paul in Rom. 4:1-5, and James in 2:23. Each state that Abraham BELIEVED in the Lord and He reckoned it (His belief in Him) to him as righteousness. IOW, he was justified based on faith alone. Did that faith subsequently produce works? Yes indeed. But the Scriptures are very clear that God, at the time of justifying Abraham (declaring him righteous), did so on the basis of faith alone.

MD in Christ,

The faith does not produce the works. God’s making us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared in advance is what we are talking about here. Likewise, all of that including faith is by grace.

God bless.

 

[SyCarl]

None of the Old Testament saints had a personal faith in Christ that would include reference to the finished work of Calvary.

Recall that Moon says Catholics aren’t saved because our faith in Christ is not “personal” or “total” enough, because we supposedly don’t think that Calvary was a completed work.

If you (and Augustine et al) are right, Catholics are saved and Moon is wrong.

I would never suggest that Catholics aren’t saved although not all necessarily are which is the same with those in any church. However, I do not agree with all Catholic teaching especially with respect to infallibility.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Let’s see how the Catholic Douhay-Rheims Bible translates this passage.

If you’re going to claim the DRB is a better translation than the modern ecumenical ones, then you cannot remain Protestant. But I digress.
Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

WITHOUT, prep.

1. Not with; as without success.
2. In a state of destitution or absence from.
   There is no living with thee nor without thee.
3. In a state of destitution or absence from.
   There is no living with thee nor without thee.
4. Beyond; not within.
   Eternity, before the world and after, is without our reach.
5. Supposing the negation or omission of.
   Without the separation of the two monarchies, the most advantageous terms from the French must end in our destruction.
6. Independent of; not by the use of. Men like to live without labor.
   Wise men will do it without a law.
7. On the outside of; as without the gate; without doors.
8. With exemption from. That event cannot happen without great damage to our interests.
   9. Unless; except.

Here’s the DRB:

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 3:28[/BIBLEDRB]

So here it is according to Webster himself: “For we account a man to be justified by faith, unless [by] the works of the law.”

That doesn’t help you any.

 

[twb1621]

You guys always have to revert to hypotheticals, don’t you? Do you think God, “who knows the heart,” had to wait for Abraham to demonstrate his faith before God could justify Him? Gen. 15:6 states emphatically that Abraham believed in the Lord and He reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness. We see this glorious example in the N.T:

Peter testifies: "Acts 15:8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;” God knew Abraham’s heart (the seat of faith, Rom. 10:10) and justified him based on his faith (belief) in Him alone. So it was also with the Gentiles to whom Peter preached the gospel.

Moon, no offense intended, but I have to question what it is you are looking for when you accuse us “guys”, I assume meaning Catholics, of offering hypothetical responses, yet you totally avoid the many I and others have posted to you which contain specific references to scripture and commentary with legitimate questions that can be well validated… even to the point of quoting further into the verses you yourself quoted showing your reference out of context and interpretation to be incorrect. Now here you attempt to invalidate scripture with scripture which is a certain indication of incorrect interpretation. Are you capable of offering some insight into this?

 

[Pitcharan]

… I do not agree with all Catholic teaching especially with respect to infallibility.

Let us set aside the differences and focus on indisputable commonly shared beliefs. Differences have always been there throughout salvation history, but it is the commonly shared values and beliefs that bind us inseparably to God.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Let us set aside the differences and focus on indisputable commonly shared beliefs. Differences have always been there throught salvation history, but it is the sommonly shared values and beliefs that bind us inseparably to God.

Presbyterians are heirs of Calvin and as such most of them share Calvin’s denial of free will and reliance on predestination for salvation. While there is room for dialogue, it must be remembered that Calvinism is not orthodox Christianity and has considerably less in common with Catholic or Orthodox Christianity than does Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, etc.

 

[Pitcharan]

Moon, no offense intended, but I have to question what it is you are looking for when you accuse us “guys”, I assume meaning Catholics, of offering hypothetical responses, yet you totally avoid the many I and others have posted to you which contain specific references to scripture and commentary with legitimate questions that can be well validated…. even to the point of quoting further into the verses you yourself quoted showing your reference out of context and interpretation to be incorrect. Now here you attempt to invalidate scripture with scripture which is a certain indication of incorrect interpretation. Are you capable of offering some insight into this?

Moon has been a consistent dodger. Invariably you will find that once cornered with irrefutable facts, Moon will conveniently ignore and get away.

 

[Pitcharan]

Presbyterians are heirs of Calvin and as such most of them share Calvin’s denial of free will and reliance on predestination for salvation. While there is room for dialogue, it must be remembered that Calvinism is not orthodox Christianity and has considerably less in common with Catholic or Orthodox Christianity than does Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, etc.

Even without any knowledge of either Calvin or his doctrine, many christians including catholics, hold similar views. However, the bottom line is JESUS CHRIST and nothing can separate us from the love of Christ

 

[Pax]

Good works are part of a living faith. By them we work out our salvation; not work for our salvation. Good works are a necessary result of a true faith and are the evidence of such a faith.

It is in this way that Paul and James can be reconciled.

James writes:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jas 2:24 NASB)

SyCarl in Christ,

There are some serious problems here. Please read my post #758 for starters. Then please consider the fact that you cannot make the connection you’ve made between James and Paul based upon Paul’s statement concerning Abraham’s justification versus when he was circumcised as described in Genesis 15:6. Paul’s point involves circumcision and works of law, and specifically refers to Genesis 15:6.

James is referring to a different incident in scripture where Abraham is justified and that instance is found later in Genesis 22 and refers to Abraham trusting and obeying God as expressed in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. You cannot logically make the connection that you are attempting to make because neither disciple is talking about the same incident. Moreover, I demonstrated in my post #830 that James discussion of Abraham and justification is **not **“before men.”

God bless and best regards.

 

[Pitcharan]

I think it is possible to have a convergence of beliefs by trying to understand the basis of the two different beliefs: FAITH ALONE & FAITH+WORKS.

Recall Romans 4:1-8 *Abraham Justified by Faith
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
*

The catholic understanding is this: Abraham, David, Paul or for that matter every believer is helpless on his/her own to overcome the flesh. He/she is saved only by surrender to God/Christ, by putting all their faith in Him.

The non-catholic (calvin etc) view is no different: By our own effort (works) we cannot save ourselves. But faith in God/Christ saves us. Every good work is accomplished through faith and surrender to God’s will and NOT by an individual’s own will power

 

[Cat_Herder]

Even without any knowledge of either Calvin or his doctrine, many christians including catholics, hold similar views. However, the bottom line is JESUS CHRIST and nothing can separate us from the love of Christ

… except mortal sin, and that’s where the problem lies. If the Calvinists are wrong then they’re giving a lot of people false hope.

And if the Calvinists are right, then the predestined are locked into their salvation and can never lose it. If Osama bin Laden is predestined, he goes to heaven. Of course they’ll say he’s not, because (Christian) faith is the marker of salvation and bin Laden doesn’t have it. But neither do the thousands of babies slaughtered by abortuaries every year. And then there’s this verse:

If no allowance is made for works, all the abortion victims go to heaven, but then so does bin Laden, along with several generations of equally evil Ku Klux Klansmen (who, unlike bin Laden, had faith).

I have a better outcome: Catholics in the state of grace go to heaven. Non-Catholic Christians ignorant of the need to be Catholic, and who do not sin mortally, go to heaven too. Jews and Muslims and everyone else will not be held accountable for original sin, and thus will go to heaven, if they are not aware of their need for Jesus Christ and avoid mortal sin. Thus the abortion victims go to heaven, never having committed actual sin. Osama bin Laden goes to hell, unless he repents on his deathbed, in which case he stays in purgatory until the end of time.

This is the Catholic outcome and it’s the only sane one.

 

[SyCarl]

Presbyterians are heirs of Calvin and as such most of them share Calvin’s denial of free will and reliance on predestination for salvation. While there is room for dialogue, it must be remembered that Calvinism is not orthodox Christianity and has considerably less in common with Catholic or Orthodox Christianity than does Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, etc.

The Presbyterian Church in Canada could not really be called overly Calvinist even it ts roots are based in his reformed doctrine. The Calvinist Westminster Confession of Faith is a subordinate standard for it but full membership in the church requires only belief in the Apostles’ Creed. General Assemby has not made changes to the Westminster Confession as it is an historical document but have used resolutions to distinguish what it no longer accepts. A major Presbyterian tenet remains the total sovereignty of God, but in the exercise of that sovereignty He can allow us freewill by His grace. With some exceptions most Presbyterian bodies have moved considerably towards Arminianism to such an extant that many Presbyterian Churches worldwide are involved in becoming Uniting Churches with Methodist and Congregationalists. Such a union took place in Canada in 1925 with 60% of Presbyterians becoming part of the United Church. The remaining congregations softened their Calvinism over time and are quite similar to the United Church which is considerably more liberal. Still I have little problem in attending a United Church where there is not a Presbyterian one. Relations with other churches such as the Anglicans, United and some Lutherans allow for shared ministry in areas that couldn’t afford to each have their own minister.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Even without any knowledge of either Calvin or his doctrine, many christians including catholics, hold similar views. However, the bottom line is JESUS CHRIST and nothing can separate us from the love of Christ

… except mortal sin, and that’s where the problem lies. If the Calvinists are wrong then they’re giving a lot of people false hope. (Yes, they are, and they are.)

And if the Calvinists are right, then the predestined are locked into their salvation and can never lose it. If Osama bin Laden is predestined, he goes to heaven. Of course they’ll say he’s not, because (Christian) faith is the marker of salvation and bin Laden doesn’t have it. But neither do the thousands of babies slaughtered by abortuaries every year. What does the Bible say?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

God desires all to be saved, so everyone, including bin Laden is predestined. Thus, if no allowance is made for works, all the abortion victims go to heaven, but then, so does bin Laden. If predestination is replaced with free will, and Christian faith alone is required to be saved (again, no works), bin Laden goes to hell but the abortion victims do too. Meanwhile, legions of equally evil Ku Klux Klansmen (who, unlike bin Laden, had faith) go to heaven, their evil works not being reckoned against them.

How about NO.

I have a better outcome: Catholics in the state of grace go to heaven. Non-Catholic Christians ignorant of the need to be Catholic, and who do not sin mortally, go to heaven too. Jews and Muslims and everyone else will not be held accountable for original sin, and thus will go to heaven, if they are not aware of their need for Jesus Christ and avoid mortal sin. Thus the abortion victims go to heaven, never having committed actual sin. Osama bin Laden goes to hell, unless he repents on his deathbed, in which case he stays in purgatory until the end of time. Ditto for the KKK.

This is the Catholic outcome and it’s the only sane one.

 

[SyCarl]

Let us set aside the differences and focus on indisputable commonly shared beliefs. Differences have always been there throughout salvation history, but it is the commonly shared values and beliefs that bind us inseparably to God.

I agree totally with this sentiment. My purpose in coming to this forum has been to show that many Protestant beliefs would have been considered orthodox by the early church even if they were not predominate. As time passed, tolerance for different views diminished on both sides and various splits then incurred.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Even without any knowledge of either Calvin or his doctrine, many christians including catholics, hold similar views. However, the bottom line is JESUS CHRIST and nothing can separate us from the love of Christ

… except mortal sin, and that’s where the problem lies. If the Calvinists are wrong then they’re giving a lot of people false hope. (Yes, they are, and they are.)

But let’s say the Calvinists are right; the predestined, the elect desired to be saved by God, are locked into their salvation and can never lose it because they have no free will. If Osama bin Laden is predestined, he goes to heaven. Of course they’ll say he’s not, because (Christian) faith is the marker of salvation and bin Laden doesn’t have it. But neither do the thousands of babies slaughtered by abortuaries every year. What does the Bible say?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

God desires all to be saved, so everyone, including bin Laden is predestined. Any sane person would say bin Laden has forefeited his predestination by working evil. But If Calvinism is true, no allowance is made for free will or for works, so all the abortion victims go to heaven, but then, so does bin Laden.

Generic faith-alone Evangelicalism fares no better. If predestination is made subject to free will, and Christian faith alone is required to be saved (again, no works), bin Laden goes to hell but the abortion victims do too because they have no faith. Meanwhile, legions of equally evil Ku Klux Klansmen (who, unlike the babies and bin Laden, had faith) go to heaven, their evil works not being reckoned against them.

How about NO.

I have a better outcome: Catholics in the state of grace go to heaven. Non-Catholic Christians ignorant of the need to be Catholic, and who do not sin mortally, go to heaven too. Jews and Muslims and everyone else will not be held accountable for original sin, and thus will go to heaven, if they are not aware of their need for Jesus Christ and avoid mortal sin. Thus the abortion victims go to heaven, never having committed actual sin. Osama bin Laden goes to hell, unless he repents on his deathbed, in which case he stays in purgatory until the end of time. Ditto for the KKK.

This is the Catholic outcome and it’s the only sane one.

 

[Pitcharan]

… except mortal sin, and that’s where the problem lies. If the Calvinists are wrong then they’re giving a lot of people false hope. (Yes, they are, and they are.)

But let’s say the Calvinists are right; the predestined, the elect desired to be saved by God, are locked into their salvation and can never lose it because they have no free will. If Osama bin Laden is predestined, he goes to heaven. Of course they’ll say he’s not, because (Christian) faith is the marker of salvation and bin Laden doesn’t have it. But neither do the thousands of babies slaughtered by abortuaries every year. What does the Bible say?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

God desires all to be saved, so everyone, including bin Laden is predestined. Any sane person would say bin Laden has forefeited his predestination by working evil. But If Calvinism is true, no allowance is made for free will or for works, so all the abortion victims go to heaven, but then, so does bin Laden.

Generic faith-alone Evangelicalism fares no better. If predestination is made subject to free will, and Christian faith alone is required to be saved (again, no works), bin Laden goes to hell but the abortion victims do too because they have no faith. Meanwhile, legions of equally evil Ku Klux Klansmen (who, unlike the babies and bin Laden, had faith) go to heaven, their evil works not being reckoned against them.

How about NO.

I have a better outcome: Catholics in the state of grace go to heaven. Non-Catholic Christians ignorant of the need to be Catholic, and who do not sin mortally, go to heaven too. Jews and Muslims and everyone else will not be held accountable for original sin, and thus will go to heaven, if they are not aware of their need for Jesus Christ and avoid mortal sin. Thus the abortion victims go to heaven, never having committed actual sin. Osama bin Laden goes to hell, unless he repents on his deathbed, in which case he stays in purgatory until the end of time. Ditto for the KKK.

This is the Catholic outcome and it’s the only sane one.

Why complicate things when the Gospel teaches in very simple terms, what is required of us.
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:20-23)

 

[Pitcharan]

… … Osama bin Laden goes to hell, unless he repents on his deathbed, in which case he stays in purgatory until the end of time. Ditto for the KKK.

This is the Catholic outcome and it’s the only sane one.

Our religion tells us that “those who cause people to sin” are more gulity than “those who sin”. Who taught and trained Osama Bin Laden? Who introduced him to terror?

 

[moondweller]

I understand what Aquinas says but merit of any kind and grace are incompatable to me. However, I feel that the difference between Catholics and most Protestants in this area is one of semantics. Protestants believe works necessarily follow true faith but don’t merit anything, while Catholics say the works themselves are gifts of grace and only in that sense have merit.

That’s not semantics. It’s two different means of salvation. One strictly “through faith,” the other through the merit of works.

But the Scriptures clearly say “…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:9) And elsewhere: Rom 4:5-6 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.”

Scripture speaks nothing of “grace fueled, meritorious works” that result in one’s salvation. No, my friend, this is hardly just a matter of semantics. They’re two very different views of salvation; so much the opposite of one another that they can’t both be right. Semantic? Heavens no!

 

[moondweller]

… except mortal sin, and that’s where the problem lies.

If there is such a thing as a “mortal” sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.