Faith alone? Really?

[stewstew03]

Here we go again… “your man-made tradition”, “ALONE”,“ONLY or ALONE”.

Re-posting…

fpesce – can you tell me exactly what saving faith is? What does it look like? Please don’t cut/paste from the bible, I already know what the bible says. I’m looking for your summary of saving faith. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Am I saved? Thanks for your help!

 

[fpesce]

Re-posting…

fpesce – can you tell me exactly what saving faith is? What does it look like? Please don’t cut/paste from the bible, I already know what the bible says. I’m looking for your summary of saving faith. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Am I saved? Thanks for your help!

Oh, thats easy!
I can cut and paste that too.

**I believe **in one God, the Father almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all things visible and invisible.

**I believe **in one Lord Jesus Christ,

    the Only Begotten Son of God, 

    born of the Father before all ages. 

God from God, Light from Light, 

    true God from true God, 

begotten, not made, consubstantial 

   with the Father; 

    Through him all things were made. 

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven, 

    and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate 

    of the Virgin Mary, 

    and became man.



For our sake he was crucified 

  under Pontius Pilate,

    he suffered death and was buried, 

    and rose again on the third day 

    in accordance with the Scriptures. 

He ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

**
I believe **in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life, 

who proceeds from the Father and the Son, 

who with the Father and the Son 

    is adored and glorified, 

    who has spoken through the prophets.

**I believe **in one, holy, catholic,

 and apostolic Church. 

I confess **one** baptism for the **forgiveness of sins **
    and I look forward to the resurrection 

    of the dead and the life of the world to come.

AMEN and AMEN!

 

[fpesce]

Oh, thats easy!
I can cut and paste that too.

**I believe **in one God, the Father almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all things visible and invisible.

**I believe **in one Lord Jesus Christ,

    the Only Begotten Son of God, 

    born of the Father before all ages. 

God from God, Light from Light, 

    true God from true God, 

begotten, not made, consubstantial 

   with the Father; 

    Through him all things were made. 

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven, 

    and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate 

    of the Virgin Mary, 

    and became man.



For our sake he was crucified 

  under Pontius Pilate,

    he suffered death and was buried, 

    and rose again on the third day 

    in accordance with the Scriptures. 

He ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

**
I believe **in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life, 

who proceeds from the Father and the Son, 

who with the Father and the Son 

    is adored and glorified, 

    who has spoken through the prophets.

**I believe **in one, holy, catholic,

 and apostolic Church. 

I confess **one** baptism for the **forgiveness of sins **
    and I look forward to the resurrection 

    of the dead and the life of the world to come.

AMEN and AMEN!

WOW, that just makes me happy to say it or even read it! And of course… I BELIEVE IT.
But then again, saying it doesn’t necesarily make it so. Geese, I’ve been talking to you guys too much! LOL

 

[stewstew03]

Oh, thats easy!
I can cut and paste that too.

**I believe **in one God, the Father almighty,

maker of heaven and earth, 

of all things visible and invisible.

**I believe **in one Lord Jesus Christ,

    the Only Begotten Son of God, 

    born of the Father before all ages. 

God from God, Light from Light, 

    true God from true God, 

begotten, not made, consubstantial 

   with the Father; 

    Through him all things were made. 

For us men and for our salvation 

    he came down from heaven, 

    and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate 

    of the Virgin Mary, 

    and became man.



For our sake he was crucified 

  under Pontius Pilate,

    he suffered death and was buried, 

    and rose again on the third day 

    in accordance with the Scriptures. 

He ascended into heaven 

    and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 

He will come again in glory 

    to judge the living and the dead 

    and his kingdom will have no end.

**
I believe **in the Holy Spirit,

    the Lord, the giver of life, 

who proceeds from the Father and the Son, 

who with the Father and the Son 

    is adored and glorified, 

    who has spoken through the prophets.

**I believe **in one, holy, catholic,

 and apostolic Church. 

I confess **one** baptism for the **forgiveness of sins **
    and I look forward to the resurrection 

    of the dead and the life of the world to come.

AMEN and AMEN!

All Catholics recite this on Sundays during mass (except during Lent/Easter when the Apostles Creed might be recited).

So, what does “belief” mean? If I look at the Creed and nod my head, and say “yeah, I believe that.” Is that considered “belief”, and therefore secure my salvation for eternity?

.

 

[fpesce]

All Catholics recite this on Sundays during mass (except during Lent/Easter when the Apostles Creed might be recited).

So, what does “belief” mean? If I look at the Creed and nod my head, and say “yeah, I believe that.” Is that considered “belief”, and therefore secure my salvation for eternity?

.

Does what I believe make any difference to what i say you? Will my posts sway you by knowing what my BELIEF’s are?

Answer that question first.

 

[benjohnson]

Wow, were you Clinton’s lawyer?

This touches on the heart of the issue as I understand it, in that between Lutherans and Catholics we seem to have different understandings on what Faith means.

As I understand it, when Catholic say ‘faith’ they tend to mean an intellectual assent - so if they hear ‘Faith Alone’, it really drives them up the wall. If Lutherans had this definition of Faith - we would never say ‘Faith Alone’ for that understanding would be contrary to scripture. As scripture tells us, even evil creatures know that God exists.

Lutherans understand a ‘saving faith’ to be a profound change - much more than and intellectual assent. So to us ‘Faith Alone’ makes perfect sense.

Oddly enough, this Lutheran faith is hard to ‘measure’: so while Catholics have the issue of wondering if their responsive grace-filled works through faith are enough, Lutherans have the problem of wondering if their responsive faith is enough for God’s grace.

The answer my pastor gave was that if we are wondering if we have enough faith, then we have enough faith.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

This touches on the heart of the issue as I understand it, in that between Lutherans and Catholics we seem to have different understandings on what Faith means.

As I understand it, when Catholic say ‘faith’ they tend to mean an intellectual assent - so if they hear ‘Faith Alone’, it really drives them up the wall. If Lutherans had this definition of Faith - we would never say ‘Faith Alone’ for that understanding would be contrary to scripture. As scripture tells us, even evil creatures know that God exists.

Lutherans understand a ‘saving faith’ to be a profound change - much more than and intellectual assent. So to us ‘Faith Alone’ makes perfect sense.

Oddly enough, this Lutheran faith is hard to ‘measure’: so while Catholics have the issue of wondering if their responsive grace-filled works through faith are enough, Lutherans have the problem of wondering if their responsive faith is enough for God’s grace.

The answer my pastor gave was that if we are wondering if we have enough faith, then we have enough faith.

Interesting. Cause I believe if we ever believe that we have “enough faith” is the day we are presuming.

I believe the biblical definition of presumption is faith with out works.

Again, the claims of sola scriptura or sola fita does not hold up scrutiny. I am sorry, but the fact that a canon was not even set for close to 400 years after the resurrection means the early Christians were being instructed through oral tradition.

The fact that 1st Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar of truth, means sola scriptura Christians should accept that the church is the pillar of truth. They don’t. They rely on their own interpretation. Hence 50,000+ different churches.

That is not good fruit. That is a divided faith.

 

[benjohnson]

Interesting. Cause I believe if we ever believe that we have “enough faith” is the day we are presuming.

I would agree with that - presumption is dangerous to faith.

I believe the biblical definition of presumption is faith with out works.

Lutherans believe that grace-filled works come from the grace that God give us. If you see a slumbering Lutheran, feel free to remind him of this.

Again, the claims of sola scriptura or sola fita does not hold up scrutiny. I am sorry, but the fact that a canon was not even set for close to 400 years after the resurrection means the early Christians were being instructed through oral tradition.

No problem with your observation about Scripture and the Word of God.

The fact that 1st Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar of truth, means sola scriptura Christians should accept that the church is the pillar of truth. They don’t. They rely on their own interpretation. Hence 50,000+ different churches.

That is not good fruit. That is a divided faith.

Lutherans reject denominationalism and make a positive claim to be a valid continuation of the western church. So we agree on this principle.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This touches on the heart of the issue as I understand it, in that between Lutherans and Catholics we seem to have different understandings on what Faith means.

As I understand it, when Catholic say ‘faith’ they tend to mean an intellectual assent - so if they hear ‘Faith Alone’, it really drives them up the wall.

It truly does, at least it does to me .

Faith without works is dead. Faith is never alone.

In Luke 17:5, the Disciples ask Jesus to “Increase their Faith”!

Faith is not a one time thing. it is life changing, it is meant to produce good fruit.

How do you think Faith increases?
With good works.

What are good works?
To do God’s Will and keep Jesus commandments.

We don’t do the above, our Faith is Dead and we don’t truly believe.

Faith Alone will only lead to the Wide Gate.

I don’t know how Narrow is Jesus’ Gate but that’s the one I want to go through!

 

[steido01]

Interesting. Cause I believe if we ever believe that we have “enough faith” is the day we are presuming.

I believe the biblical definition of presumption is faith with out works.

…That is not good fruit. That is a divided faith.

I can’t speak for those who have appropriated the term ‘Sola Fide’ to fit a definition foreign from the concept embraced by Lutherans, but we would agree that a faith without works is not bearing good fruit. God grants His free grace to those who have faith, but ‘free’ does not mean “cheap!” Good works are expected. A faith without works is a dead faith, indeed. Those who profess Sola Fide may not be so different after all!

Isaiah45_9:

How do you think Faith increases?
With good works.

I am reminded of the words of a former professor from my alma mater:
“’Faith without works is dead,’ we are reminded. Quite true. But then what follows is usually some long and dreary description of works and what we should be about, as though the way to revive a dead faith were by putting up a good-works front. If the faith is dead, it is the faith that must be revived; no amount of works will do it.”

 

[stewstew03]

Does what I believe make any difference to what i say you? Will my posts sway you by knowing what my BELIEF’s are?

Answer that question first.

Will your posts influence my opinion of you? Of course!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I can’t speak for those who have appropriated the term ‘Sola Fide’ to fit a definition foreign from the concept embraced by Lutherans, but we would agree that a faith without works is not bearing good fruit. God grants His free grace to those who have faith, but ‘free’ does not mean “cheap!” Good works are expected. A faith without works is a dead faith, indeed. Those who profess Sola Fide may not be so different after all!

I am reminded of the words of a former professor from my alma mater:
“’Faith without works is dead,’ we are reminded. Quite true. But then what follows is usually some long and dreary description of works and what we should be about, as though the way to revive a dead faith were by putting up a good-works front. If the faith is dead, it is the faith that must be revived; no amount of works will do it.”

Faith without works is still dead.

The good works are God’s, not ours. Still we must use the talents we have been given and not be like the servant who buried his talent.

 

[PRmerger]

Here we go again… “your man-made tradition”, “ALONE”,“ONLY or ALONE”.

Right.

You heard someone say this, who heard another man say this…but no one ever read “Belief Alone is what is required for salvation” in a single page of the bible.

 

[fpesce]

Right.

You heard someone say this, who heard another man say this…but no one ever read “Belief Alone is what is required for salvation” in a single page of the bible.

I understand PR, making exclusive stataments isn’t good. That being said, Jesus makes that statement so many times. I am not going to “cut and paste” all those previous quotes again.

But when Jesus was talking to Martha and says in John 11:25

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

How can you put in perspective for me that Jesus doesn’t mean what he says there?

 

[PRmerger]

I understand PR, making exclusive stataments isn’t good. That being said, Jesus makes that statement so many times.

Just so we’re on the same page here, I want to be sure we’re understanding correctly.

Jesus “makes that statement so many times”: what statement do you mean? ****That Belief Alone is all that is required to achieve salvation?

---

Is that what you mean by "that statement’?

 

[PRmerger]

He read the Bible, which, as you say, speaks for itself.

Would you let him come and preach at your church if he said the above (which is your paradigm)?

Also, does your church have bible studies? If so, why, if the bible speaks for itself. Everyone would simply read a Scripture passage aloud and there would be nothing more to say, right, if your paradigm is correct? Everyone would just simply nod knowingly and say, “Next verse, please!”

Does your church have pastors that attended bible college?

fpesce, could you please address my 3 questions:

-would you let a man you met, say, on a bus, preach at your church if he said that he was a Christian preacher who “preached from the Bible”? (Please, please, please spare me the, "Well, I’m not involved in the decision of who preaches. Please try to see the bigger point of my question.)

-why does your church have bible studies, if the Word of God speaks for itself?

-why do you want your pastors to attend bible college?

 

[josh987654321]

If the faith is dead, it is the faith that must be revived; no amount of works will do it."[/INDENT]

How do you revive a faith without works? I would say the only way to revive a faith is with works, as the works are whats missing to make the faith dead.

Either that or this is yet another way of saying, revive the faith and than you will have the works, than you would ask how do I revive my faith? in which he would answer, with good works. haha

Protestants -
Faith Alone

Faith + Works = Alive Faith

Faith - Works = Dead Faith

Catholics -
Faith + Works

In which by prtestant standards = an Alive Faith.

It is all the same just in a different language I prefer the Catholic language though, as it is clear that you can have a faith without the works. Which is a dead faith, and you can have an alive faith with the works. I think it’s better to say Faith + Works rather than saying Faith Alone however faith without works is dead.

Anyway however you want to think of it, it’s really the exact same thing, haha

 

[flipmode]

Anyway however you want to think of it, it’s really the exact same thing, haha

I understand what you’re saying and they both do sound similar. But I think the key difference is in the point of justification. When we stand before God at the Great White Throne of Judgement, and He decides whether we go to heaven or hell, is it because of

1. I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and His resurrection justifies me.

or

1. I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and His resurrection and my works justify me.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I understand what you’re saying and they both do sound similar. But I think the key difference is in the point of justification. When we stand before God at the Great White Throne of Judgement, and He decides whether we go to heaven or hell, is it because of

1. I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and His resurrection justifies me.

or

1. I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and His resurrection and my works justify me.

Jesus actually tells us how it will happen. Read it. Learn it. Know it.

Matthew 25: 31 - 46

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?

39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’

40 And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least
of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

44 Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’

45 Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’

46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You are not going to tell me that does mean what it clearly says. Christ could have said, enter into the kingdom of MY Father which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for you ACCEPTED ME AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR.

He also said Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Are the merciful and those that act serve Christ only limited to those that “ACCEPT HIM AS THEIR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR?” If that is the case, then why in verse 37 are the true righteous going to be asking that? Christians that are devout all know that when we feed the least of these, that we serve Christ. So, who are these righteous that do not know they are serving Christ?

Can someone answer those? Thanks.

 

[josh987654321]

I understand what you’re saying and they both do sound similar. But I think the key difference is in the point of justification. When we stand before God at the Great White Throne of Judgement, and He decides whether we go to heaven or hell, is it because of

1. I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and His resurrection justifies me.

or

1. I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and His resurrection and my works justify me.

Neither.

I think we are never justified into entering heaven. regardless of what we have done. It’s only by the grace of God that we may enter. it’s only through mercy, through our humility, through our works that show that Christ’s sacrifice was not in vain. nothing earns us a spot in heaven.

In relation to what you have said, I think it would be more something like this.

I truly believe in what Jesus did on the cross. His death pays the penalty of my sins and his resurrection … My works show that his sacrifice was not in vain.

Thank you for reading
Josh