Faith alone? Really?

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Christ could have said, enter into the kingdom of MY Father which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for you ACCEPTED ME AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR.
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Like you said, a true christian will undoubtedly walk in Christ’s footsteps and serve. I am not saying not to do any work. I am saying that my work does not justify me, only God’s work justifies me.
Christians that are devout all know that when we feed the least of these, that we serve Christ. So, who are these righteous that do not know they are serving Christ?
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Can someone answer those? Thanks.
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So going by what you said, then those true righteous are the only ones that don’t know they are serving christ when they help the poor. So therefore, we are all eliminated since we know we are serving christ when we help the poor?
I think we are never justified into entering heaven. regardless of what we have done. It’s only by the grace of God that we may enter. it’s only through mercy, through our humility, through our works that show that Christ’s sacrifice was not in vain. nothing earns us a spot in heaven.
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As I read your comment, it sounds the same to me as option number 1. None of our works gain entry into heaven. Only by His grace (unmerited favor) are we allowed. Righteous works are just a consequence or fruit of a changed heart.
 
flipmode said:
Like you said, a true christian will undoubtedly walk in Christ’s footsteps and serve. I am not saying not to do any work. I am saying that my work does not justify me, only God’s work justifies me.
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This is very Catholic of you to say, flipmode. 👍

Only God’s grace justifies us, through the merits of Christ’s atoning death on the cross.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Jesus actually tells us how it will happen. Read it. Learn it. Know it.

Matthew 25: 31 - 46

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?

39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’

40 And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least
of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

44 Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’

45 Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’

46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You are not going to tell me that does mean what it clearly says. Christ could have said, enter into the kingdom of MY Father which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for you ACCEPTED ME AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR.

He also said Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Are the merciful and those that act serve Christ only limited to those that “ACCEPT HIM AS THEIR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR?” If that is the case, then why in verse 37 are the true righteous going to be asking that? Christians that are devout all know that when we feed the least of these, that we serve Christ. So, who are these righteous that do not know they are serving Christ?

Can someone answer those? Thanks.
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http://www.majhost.com/gallery/nuttyjawa/Guns/amen-brother.jpg
 
This is very Catholic of you to say, flipmode.
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Only God’s grace justifies us, through the merits of Christ’s atoning death on the cross.
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From official Roman Catholic doctrine on justification.

Canon 24.
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. (Trent, session 6, chapter 16 and canon 24).

This doctrine is saying that God’s grace is preserved and increased by our good works. So Jesus Christ’s atoning death on the cross wasn’t enough, because we have to preserve it and increase it through our works.
 
PRmerger said:
Just so we’re on the same page here, I want to be sure we’re understanding correctly.

Jesus “makes that statement so many times”: what statement do you mean? ****That Belief Alone is all that is required to achieve salvation?
Is that what you mean by "that statement’?
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No, this statement:

those who believes in Me will be saved
 
flipmode said:
From official Roman Catholic doctrine on justification.

Canon 24.
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. (Trent, session 6, chapter 16 and canon 24).

This doctrine is saying that God’s grace is preserved and increased by our good works. So Jesus Christ’s atoning death on the cross wasn’t enough, because we have to preserve it and increase it through our works.
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Because Faith without works is dead. There is no Justification on a dead Faith. St. James could not be any clearer. Still many want to insist on the Easy Gospel.

Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

That doesn’t sound like a Once and you are done deal to me. Jesus says Daily, that means every day.

From the CCC:

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
It truly does, at least it does to me :o.

Faith without works is dead. Faith is never alone.

In Luke 17:5, the Disciples ask Jesus to “Increase their Faith”!

Faith is not a one time thing. it is life changing, it is meant to produce good fruit.

How do you think Faith increases?
With good works.

What are good works?
To do God’s Will and keep Jesus commandments.

We don’t do the above, our Faith is Dead and we don’t truly believe.

Faith Alone will only lead to the Wide Gate.

I don’t know how Narrow is Jesus’ Gate but that’s the one I want to go through!
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No, faith doesn’t increase with works. It’s the other way around, works increase with faith. and this is where faith comes from:

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

This is the work we are to perform:

John 6:28-29
Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

This passage shows that works accompany those who believe:

Mark 16:16
“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

These are not the “ONLY signs” of course, but they are significant.
 
flipmode said:
From official Roman Catholic doctrine on justification.

Canon 24.
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. (Trent, session 6, chapter 16 and canon 24).
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Amen!
This doctrine is saying that God’s grace is preserved and increased by our good works. So Jesus Christ’s atoning death on the cross wasn’t enough, because we have to preserve it and increase it through our works.
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Not at all. It no more says that Jesus’ atoning death on the cross “wasn’t enough” than your doctrine does where you have to profess with your mouth that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

If your doctrine doesn’t say Jesus’ death is insufficient, neither does Trent.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Which will give birth to good works.

Faith without works is dead.

Maybe the pics will help :confused:
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I’ll even say Faith without Works, is not Faith at all! The works you do prove you have faith. Don’t you agree?
 
fpesce said:
No, faith doesn’t increase with works. It’s the other way around, works increase with faith. and this is where faith comes from:

These are not the “ONLY signs” of course, but they are significant.
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Ok, since you do not want to address what Jesus said He will do when he does separate the goats from the sheep and describes in detail the basis by which He will judge, then let me ask you some more questions.

Perhaps this will make it more clear. At least from what I have read and understand.

One, we all agree that Jesus is Lord, right?

If so, then is it wrong for me to say that Jesus will have the last word? When He says I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME, is He saying we have the last word, or is He saying he will have the last word? I ask that, cause it really seems to me that the notion of ACCEPTING and believing in some way OBLIGATES Christ.

I am wondering why there were bodies that rose from the grave after Christ died. I am wondering why Peter was asked 3 times if he loved Christ after the resurrection. I mean from what I gather, the term works (in your view) really means that we have no obligations of penance, or making amends, etc etc. That could be the crucial distinction of what works means between protestants and Catholics.

I am wondering what Christ means by “picking up OUR CROSSES” and following HIM. What does it mean to you, to PICK UP OUR CROSSES? Why, if all has been paid and ransomed, and we are not obligated to DO ANYTHING, why does He say we must pick up our crosses? I will be waiting for you explain to me if it was necessary for Peter so say he loved Christ 3 times, and I am wondering if you can explain why Christ asked that of Peter 3 times.

Also, you addressed me and asked if from verse 37 (the true righteous will ask when did we serve you) I meant everyone but Christians will be entering heaven. Really? You want to get that way about it? I asked who are these righteous people that will be asking this? Most Christians (especially that know the word) know this verse. I am wondering who Christ is referring to when he said there will be people that will be asking that question. So, who are these people that He is referring to?

Again. it was not me that said Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain My mercy. That is the Lord. It is certain people that want to insinuate that Christ ONLY MEANT CHRISTIANS who are merciful. Ok. Well, He did not say that, but ok.

The Lord said NOT all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom, but only those who DO THE FATHERS WILL. Those are not my words. I am not sure. Are Christians the only ones doing the Father’s will? Was the good Samaritan a Christian who recited the sinners prayer?

What does all of that mean to me? It means that Christ will be the judge and He will separate the goats and the sheep. Does that mean that Christ can have mercy on NON-Christians?

Well, I will say this. If that is who HE chooses then that is who HE chooses. Period. Anyone suggesting that Christ will not, or that HE cannot, or that He is obligated not to, miss the whole point.

Where is scripture does it state this? Glad you asked.

Romans 9

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

So, no. We cannot “earn our way to heaven.” However, God in no way is obligated to only choose who you think he should choose based on your interpretations.

It literally means He will choose who He chooses.

We can sling verses back and forth till we turn blue. I can ignore yours and say it does not mean that, or you can ignore all of mine and say it does not mean that. The bottom line is there are 50,000+ interpretations and over 50,000+ churches setting their own doctrine, and yes their own traditions. If we cannot see the sour fruit of that, and what that has caused, then I am sorry. There is pride that is blinding. Sorry.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Ok, since you do not want to address what Jesus said He will do when he does separate the goats from the sheep and describes in detail the basis by which He will judge, then let me ask you some more questions.

Perhaps this will make it more clear. At least from what I have read and understand.
.
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Ok, since you do not want to address what Jesus said He will do when he does separate the goats from the sheep and describes in detail the basis by which He will judge, then let me ask you some more questions.

Perhaps this will make it more clear. At least from what I have read and understand.

One, we all agree that Jesus is Lord, right? Yes

If so, then is it wrong for me to say that Jesus will have the last word?** Yes**

When He says I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME, is He saying we have the last word, or is He saying he will have the last word? I ask that, cause it really seems to me that the notion of ACCEPTING and believing in some way OBLIGATES Christ.

John3:17

“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

I am wondering why there were bodies that rose from the grave after Christ died. I am wondering why Peter was asked 3 times if he loved Christ after the resurrection. I mean from what I gather, the term works (in your view) really means that we have no obligations of penance,

or making amends, etc etc. That could be the crucial distinction of what works means between protestants and Catholics.

Not my view at all. There has to be repentance which means to turn from your old life and follow Jesus. How could you believe in Jesus and not follow Him and not do the things He did, and even greater things. Jesus said :

John 13:34

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I am wondering what Christ means by “picking up OUR CROSSES” and following HIM. What does it mean to you, to PICK UP OUR CROSSES? Why, if all has been paid and ransomed, and we are not obligated to DO ANYTHING, why does He say we must pick up our crosses? I will be waiting for you explain to me if it was necessary for Peter so say he loved Christ 3 times, and I am wondering if you can explain why Christ asked that of Peter 3 times.

Also, you addressed me and asked if from verse 37 (the true righteous will ask when did we serve you) I meant everyone but Christians will be entering heaven. Really? You want to get that way about it? I asked who are these righteous people that will be asking this? Most Christians (especially that know the word) know this verse. I am wondering who Christ is referring to when he said there will be people that will be asking that question. So, who are these people that He is referring to?

Again. it was not me that said Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain My mercy. That is the Lord. It is certain people that want to insinuate that Christ ONLY MEANT CHRISTIANS who are merciful. Ok. Well, He did not say that, but ok.

The Lord said NOT all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom, but only those who DO THE FATHERS WILL. Those are not my words. I am not sure. Are Christians the only ones doing the Father’s will? Was the good Samaritan a Christian who recited the sinners prayer?

I would say this is an example of works without faith. Saying you believe is not always believing.

Your character reveals your true belief:

33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

What does all of that mean to me? It means that Christ will be the judge and He will separate the goats and the sheep. Does that mean that Christ can have mercy on NON-Christians?

Well, I will say this. If that is who HE chooses then that is who HE chooses. Period. Anyone suggesting that Christ will not, or that HE cannot, or that He is obligated not to, miss the whole point.

At least I got to some of it.
 
fpesce said:
…
I would say this is an example of works without faith. Saying you believe is not always believing.

Your character reveals your true belief:

33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

…
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fpesce, let me first just offer a compliment to you - I think you’ve done your very best to hang in there, and I know it can seem that we (Catholics) can sometimes “gang up” on our protestant brethren. So far you’ve persevered… continue to persevere to the end!

I also wanted to take one more bite at the apple to try to understand your notion of “saving faith.”

True of False: Our faith in Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works. Therefore, saving faith is giving our works to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ.

.
 
stewstew03 said:
and I know it can seem that we (Catholics) can sometimes “gang up” on our protestant brethren. .
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Re: Faith alone? Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpesce
…
By way I am NOT PROTESTANT.
…

My apologies - are you Catholic? Orthodox? No need to be ashamed of your beliefs…
fpesce - FUNNY

?? That again?? I though we cleared that up? Ok, for you I’ll spell it out again. Read my lips…“Yes, I am Catholic”. :eek: Maybe you can’t grasp it? I guess.
 
fpesce said:
Re: Faith alone? Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpesce
…
By way I am NOT PROTESTANT.
…

My apologies - are you Catholic? Orthodox? No need to be ashamed of your beliefs…
fpesce - FUNNY

?? That again?? I though we cleared that up? Ok, for you I’ll spell it out again. Read my lips…“Yes, I am Catholic”. :eek: Maybe you can’t grasp it? I guess.
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Actually, no, you didn’t clear it up. You never responded. Where were you catechized?

.
 
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