Faith and Science

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The problem is that no-one has been able to propose a reliable process for determining which phenomena are caused by God’s direct intervention (outside the normal operation of nature) and which are not. At least, I don’t know of a test.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
That is what is being attempted now. They are trying to formulize a way to detect design.

Without specifying the intelligent agent responsible, it does have implications. But so what. That is what many are afraid of. Going where the data leads them.
 
Let me start with the fraud. The fraud was/is that Newton’s theory that a rotating earth would cauisae it to be oblate. Thus when they forged an oblate earth it was portrayed as proving the earth rotates.
Sorry sonny, you’re way off-beam.

Your first error is claiming that the measurement of the flattening of the earth is a fraud - as I have pointed out several times, that measurement has been made many times to great accuracy and the earth IS an oblate spheroid.

Your second error is to claim that the Cassinis’ survey was accurate. It has been shown to be inaccurate.

Your third error is to claim that Newtonian physics fails to predict an oblate shape for a rotating earth - it does so quantitatively, not just for the earth but for other planets we can observe.

Your fourth error is to claim that the combined effect of the oblateness of the earth and the centrifugal force arising from the rotation of the earth with respect to an inertial frame does not give rise to a different measurement of the acceleration due to gravity at the poles and at the equator.

You have made many other errors, which show that you don’t really understand the basic science sufficiently well to be credible.

You don’t seem to have persuaded anyone else either. I’ve spent more than enough time talking to you, especially as you simply ignore whatever is inconvenient for your case. I wonder how you think that misrepresenting the truth and making unsubstantiated claims of fraud as you have done is admirable or virtuous? Anyway, have a great life.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/pink_unicorn.htm
 
They seem to limit it to things that are not currently understood - all the arguments that ID proponents produce such as IC, specified complexity, probability of natural explanations and the “explanatory filter” are all about inserting God into what they think are gaps in scientific understanding.
There are many things that can’t be explained by natural, random (as in undirected, non-intelligent) processes. I don’t understand, and neither does Behe (I presume) how totally natural processes, minus intelligent agents, could possibly result in an iPhone or a Cadillac Seville no matter how much time or material is available.

But ID does not insert God as the direct cause of iPhones or Sevilles as a result of not knowing how they could naturally be produced, as your suggestion above leads to. We realize, most obviously, that they are the result of intelligent design and intelligently designed processes, and a bit of research can lead you to the designer.

It may be that you see no evidence of the smoking gun variety that would lead you to believe that the universe is designed. But if you saw an iPhone or Seville for the first time, you might be inspired to track down the designer (well, maybe not for the Seville 😦 ) just out of curiosity.

You may be exactly right that there is not yet any ID evidence, or the search hasn’t been properly structured or defined. But in general, what the heck is wrong (from a scientific perspective) with hypothesizing that the universe (or smaller portions of it) were designed, and then using the scientific method to come up with data and analyze it? I can understand that it represents a potential threat to atheism because it might lead some people to come to belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God. [We agree however that science cannot “prove” the existence of God].

I’ve read a lot of your posts over the years and It seems like you are not just attacking the method, or interpretation of results, or the logic. It seems like you are saying you refuse to accept that it can ever be true, which doesn’t sound very scientific to me. Or perhaps I misunderstand you.

BTW - if you need yet another book to stack on your pile of unread books, I suggest “The Priveleged Planet”.
 
That is what is being attempted now. They are trying to formulize a way to detect design.

Without specifying the intelligent agent responsible, it does have implications. But so what. That is what many are afraid of. Going where the data leads them.
That’s fine - when they propose a reliable test process to determine whether a phenomenon is naturally occurring or intelligently designed that is reasonably robust and stands up to scrutiny then they should publish it, along with some examples of its application. Until then, they haven’t done any science, and I am justified in dismissing the movement as a politically motivated cover for creationism.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
That’s fine - when they propose a reliable test process to determine whether a phenomenon is naturally occurring or intelligently designed that is reasonably robust and stands up to scrutiny then they should publish it, along with some examples of its application. Until then, they haven’t done any science, and I am justified in dismissing the movement as a politically motivated cover for creationism.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Good for you! 🙂

It is a matter of transcribing what we know as humans. When we see a computer we know it just didn’t evolve. Intuitively we know it is not a naturally occurring thing.

It is similar to programming a robot with artificial intelligence which is a daunting task.

It could take years.
 
“The term FAITH AND SCIENCE can no longer be used as though all agree what the Catholic faith is and as though we all agree what science is.”

Maybe it is because I’m the new kid on the block or maybe it is because I am older than dirt.

But throughout this thread, I never equated faith with the Catholic religion and science was a general term. Sure there were tiffs between popes and emerging scientists and there is the cross town rivalry between fans of the White Sox and fans of the Cubs. To me, faith and science refers to something far deeper – it is a way of describing what human nature is and how it can act.

Human nature is both spiritual and physical which do intertwine.
Faith in a transcendental being arises from our spiritual talents.
Science arises because our physical body needs to deal with a material environment.

Can God be found through the physical and material aspects of the world? Of course. Can science advance because of spiritual values like concern for the sick? Of course. Can the spiritual, and the physical exist separately? Can the spirit and the body exist independently from each other?
 
The problem is that no-one has been able to propose a reliable process for determining which phenomena are caused by God’s direct intervention (outside the normal operation of nature) and which are not. At least, I don’t know of a test.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Dear Alec,

Just for the record. I am aware of tests which can determine that an individual, unique, extraordinary phenomenon (outside the normal operation of nature) has taken place. However, neither the process nor the phenomenon itself requires belief in God’s direct intervention.

The interesting thing from a human perspective is that an individual, unique, extraordinary phenomenon tantalizes us with the possibility that there is “something” beyond the realm of human sensory experience.

Blessings,
grannymh
 
There should be ZERO science textbooks that mention God as a cause. To do so would to leave the realm of science. Science textbooks are for teaching science.

Peace

Tim
So you fault ALL who claim ‘there is no God,’ BASED on scientific findings?

:cool:
 
So you fault ALL who claim ‘there is no God,’ BASED on scientific findings?
Science is incapable of proving either the existence or the nonexistence of God. Religion is incapable of determining the boiling point of water at 12,000 feet above sea level.
 
I agree entirely. I have had a number of religious and excellent scientists amongst my acquaintance whose faith was, I am sure, strengthened by their work. It’s been an honour to know them. The point I was making was statistical. I think that more scientists are persuaded by their work in the way I described than the way you described, but I absolutely agree with what you say.Alecevolutionpages.com
Thanks, Alec – you are probably correct in the statistic. However, i still wonder whether it the science made people non-theistic, or rather that nontheistic people are more frequently drawn into a life dedicated to the sciences,

StAnastasia
 
I repeat, and repeat, and repeat: Intelligent Design does not say that God is the direct cause of every event that happens. But rather that God was the direct cause of SOME events. And that traces of this intelligent behavior are detectable by humans.
How are traces of intelligent behavior detectable by humans?
 
Re: “Answering the New Atheism, Dismantling Dawkins’ Case Against God” by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker. Post 331
Except, they are completely bogus. They calculate the probability of a given DNA sequence of 100 nucleotides assembling completely at random. Then they calculate the probability of the purely random assembly of a protein of 100 predetermined residues. Both calculations are entirely irrelevant to the question of abiogenesis and their conclusion that natural abiogenesis is impossible is completely unwarranted.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Dear Alec,

Having the chance to participate in this discussion is appreciated even if it is quite a challenge.

To me, the point is not whether the calculation of DNA sequences is relevant to the question of abiogenesis. The point is whether Dawkins’ optimism about the chance production of DNA and the cell in which it functions is warranted. It’s more like comparing apples to apples, i.e., comparing the use of probability/possibility by Dawkins with that of the authors.

Toward the beginning of their book,Hahn and Wiker examine probability in general, including an example in which logically there are no odds because adverse factors make the “example” physically impossible. Regarding their reference to DNA, I would offer that the calculation of DNA sequence is used to demonstrate that the odds of chance correctly happening decreases in complex biology.

Mathematical probability is important for Dawkins because chance is major for him. This is why a lot of print is devoted to Dawkins’ use of probability, including an entire paragraph quoted from “The Blind Watchmaker” 159-160. Nonetheless, at one point the authors say: “The real question, the piror question, is one of possibility and impossibility, not greater or lesser probability.”

Blessings,
grannymh
 
Thanks - they are on my list to get hold of.

I enjoy many things that have their roots in a belief in God including sacred music, architecture, poetry, painting (and not just Christian!). A while back, someone else on this list (can’t remember who) couldn’t believe that anything inspired by faith could have any meaning for me and ridiculed me for it - but I’m sure you won’t.

Alec
Hi Alec,

I enjoy the same things you do. But I see them as evidence of the spiritual in humans. Don’t know what part of the country you are in, but where I live I should have been asleep hours ago.
Do have an excuse for being wound up. Today was our annual cut down a Christmas tree and decorate it day. My children and grandchildren take care of everything. It is a wonderful crazy day!

I like to support local owner stores, so I order all my books at my friend’s Catholic gift store. “The God Delusion” came in and I’ve just started it. Two of the “real” books by Dawkins are on order. Thanks.

Blessings,
grannymh
 
The reason we broach this subject again is because everyone involved in and with the great earthmoving and sun fixing revolution claimed/claims science supports a nine-planet solar system and modern cosmology. Secondly, by virtue of its proper meaning, science, truly so-called, is as near to the truth of it all as one can get. Moreover, as Galileo and the popes told/tell us, whatever it is, the Bible will always agree with it, or is it the other way around.
Now we have at our disposal, volumes of well-reasoned concepts as to what exact science is, (and there is even a deposit of philosophy alluding to it) and the more one reads or listens to the ‘experts’ the more confused one can get. So, without further ado, we will try to define what true-science is by quoting the best version of it we have come across.

Science is the field of study dealing entirely with facts. — Dr Crane.

This means we can see it, feel it, hear it, taste it, smell it in nature. We can measure it, we can do it in a test-tube, and we can prove it by showing it. A fact can be repeated any number of times without change and above all, cannot be falsified. The establishment of facts is called the scientific method.

A fact is something that is direct, observable, physical, natural, repeatable, unambiguous and comprehensive – in other words not hearsay, popular opinion, “expert” testimony, majority view, personal conviction, organisational ruling, conventional usage, superficial analogy, appeal to “simplicity”, or other indirect means of persuasion.

Q. OK, now back to Professor Crane. So, what is a theory?

A theory or hypothesis is a supposition; a proposition assumed for the sake of argument, a theory to be proved or disproved by reference to facts.

Q. When does a theory become a scientific fact?
A scientific theory, according to most philosophers from Aristotle to Popper, in addition to being explanatory and self-consistent (non-contradictory), must also be testable or falsifiable. It must be vulnerable to observation and we must, in principle, be able to envision a set of observations that would render the theory false. A scientific theory that does not contain these requisites is but pseudo-science, and has no right to be classed as science. Only when a theory has proven consistent and cannot be falsified will it become regarded as a fact.

Q. Good. So, what is a Law?

A Law is not a cause, a theory, or hypothesis, but a statement or formula expressing the constant order of a certain fact of nature.

Now watch this one, it’s important, for there are those -especially on discussion forums - who postulate theories and mathematical formulae sometimes not even consistent with the observations (constant order) cleverly calling them ‘laws’, and others who claim these ‘laws’ are proven causes thus facts of nature.

Q. Now, what is an assumption when used in science?

When I can’t get the facts to comply with the conclusions I want, I make one up and put it forward as a fact, but it is really an assumption. An assumption then, is a made-up fact. Any conclusion based on such an invention is a belief, not true science but pseudo-science. When the first assumption enters any scientific quest, science ceases, true-science that is, for now you have a belief in an idea, a faith, a mind-conviction, nothing more.

Spacial relativity is a fact, thus any so-called empirical proof for any particular order of the universe is no more than an accumulation of all the above.

For anyone trying to get to grips with the fraudulent ‘proofs’ offered by the Earthmovers, the following advice is crucial:

‘To begin with: any line of argument, any syllogism, which proceeds to a conclusion that we cannot deny to be true, has to satisfy two conditions. One. Its major premise must be truly self-evident, that is, not contradictable or at least proven beyond reasonable doubt. Two. Affirmations of the consequent must be avoided at all costs [for example, we know that when there is a total eclipse of the sun the streets are dark, yes? Can we thus assume the consequent and say that dark streets tell us there is a total eclipse of the sun? Of course not.] This syllogism, the so-called modus ponendo ponens at best offers only plausibilities.’

Such stringent demands, I fear, may well cause many a professor of astronomy, cosmology, astrophysics, theoretical-physics and other related subjects, to have a seizure, for to them the may be(s), must be(s) if(s), but(s), could(s), might(s), etc., hold their very belief-systems together. But we are not interested in their standards are we, only those as laid down by true science and that adhered to by Church law; conditions demanded by St Augustine and reflected by Cardinal Bellarmine in 1615 to determine if something is truly a fact, potentially a fact or not a fact; conditions absolutely necessary for true science to exist and progress. Any objections?
 
** Science is incapable of proving either the existence or the nonexistence of God.**
It’s very true. Science has no way of testing the supernatural.

Religion is incapable of determining the boiling point of water at 12,000 feet above sea level.
It’s also true. What religious doctrine can tell you about that?
 
So you fault ALL who claim ‘there is no God,’ BASED on scientific findings?

:cool:
If someone denies God’s existence based on scientific evidence, they are wrong (and I doubt that it is just the science that makes them believe that). Science cannot deny the existence of God anymore than it can prove the existence of God.

Ed has made the claim over and over and over on this and many other threads that there are biology textbooks that explicity deny the existence of God. He cannot seem to be able to find a single example that supports his claim. Therefore, he is knowingly making a false claim. Do you support Ed in these claims?

Peace

Tim
 
The reason we broach this subject again is because everyone involved in and with the great earthmoving and sun fixing revolution claimed/claims science supports a nine-planet solar system and modern cosmology. Secondly, by virtue of its proper meaning, science, truly so-called, is as near to the truth of it all as one can get. Moreover, as Galileo and the popes told/tell us, whatever it is, the Bible will always agree with it, or is it the other way around.
Now we have at our disposal, volumes of well-reasoned concepts as to what exact science is, (and there is even a deposit of philosophy alluding to it) and the more one reads or listens to the ‘experts’ the more confused one can get. So, without further ado, we will try to define what true-science is by quoting the best version of it we have come across.

Science is the field of study dealing entirely with facts. — Dr Crane.

This means we can see it, feel it, hear it, taste it, smell it in nature. We can measure it, we can do it in a test-tube, and we can prove it by showing it. A fact can be repeated any number of times without change and above all, cannot be falsified. The establishment of facts is called the scientific method.

A fact is something that is direct, observable, physical, natural, repeatable, unambiguous and comprehensive – in other words not hearsay, popular opinion, “expert” testimony, majority view, personal conviction, organisational ruling, conventional usage, superficial analogy, appeal to “simplicity”, or other indirect means of persuasion.

Q. OK, now back to Professor Crane. So, what is a theory?

A theory or hypothesis is a supposition; a proposition assumed for the sake of argument, a theory to be proved or disproved by reference to facts.

Q. When does a theory become a scientific fact?
A scientific theory, according to most philosophers from Aristotle to Popper, in addition to being explanatory and self-consistent (non-contradictory), must also be testable or falsifiable. It must be vulnerable to observation and we must, in principle, be able to envision a set of observations that would render the theory false. A scientific theory that does not contain these requisites is but pseudo-science, and has no right to be classed as science. Only when a theory has proven consistent and cannot be falsified will it become regarded as a fact.

Q. Good. So, what is a Law?

A Law is not a cause, a theory, or hypothesis, but a statement or formula expressing the constant order of a certain fact of nature.

Now watch this one, it’s important, for there are those -especially on discussion forums - who postulate theories and mathematical formulae sometimes not even consistent with the observations (constant order) cleverly calling them ‘laws’, and others who claim these ‘laws’ are proven causes thus facts of nature.

Q. Now, what is an assumption when used in science?

When I can’t get the facts to comply with the conclusions I want, I make one up and put it forward as a fact, but it is really an assumption. An assumption then, is a made-up fact. Any conclusion based on such an invention is a belief, not true science but pseudo-science. When the first assumption enters any scientific quest, science ceases, true-science that is, for now you have a belief in an idea, a faith, a mind-conviction, nothing more.

Spacial relativity is a fact, thus any so-called empirical proof for any particular order of the universe is no more than an accumulation of all the above.

For anyone trying to get to grips with the fraudulent ‘proofs’ offered by the Earthmovers, the following advice is crucial:

‘To begin with: any line of argument, any syllogism, which proceeds to a conclusion that we cannot deny to be true, has to satisfy two conditions. One. Its major premise must be truly self-evident, that is, not contradictable or at least proven beyond reasonable doubt. Two. Affirmations of the consequent must be avoided at all costs [for example, we know that when there is a total eclipse of the sun the streets are dark, yes? Can we thus assume the consequent and say that dark streets tell us there is a total eclipse of the sun? Of course not.] This syllogism, the so-called modus ponendo ponens at best offers only plausibilities.’

Such stringent demands, I fear, may well cause many a professor of astronomy, cosmology, astrophysics, theoretical-physics and other related subjects, to have a seizure, for to them the may be(s), must be(s) if(s), but(s), could(s), might(s), etc., hold their very belief-systems together. But we are not interested in their standards are we, only those as laid down by true science and that adhered to by Church law; conditions demanded by St Augustine and reflected by Cardinal Bellarmine in 1615 to determine if something is truly a fact, potentially a fact or not a fact; conditions absolutely necessary for true science to exist and progress. Any objections?
i assume i must be on your ignore list as i have asked for any evidence at all supporting your theory, and you have yet to offer anything but ideas from men who are long dead. surely you have such evidence?

if not please admit whether or not you have such evidence, diatribes concerning the philosophy of science are not evidence that supports your position.

this is a detriment to the faith. it only gives credence to those who would disbelieve. it endangers those weak in faith, and lends strength to the enemy.
 
Catholicism is a proposition. One that you can accept or not. If you accept its premise as you learn more you realize that there are areas that offer immense guidance. Once you believe in the Church’s authority on these matters you can believe and accept its other truths without having to so critically examine them. The truth is self validating. So Catholics have no issue with submitting to her authority.
I think that Catholicism is more than a proposition - but, that’s a digression. This comment arose from a thread of discussion about whether atheists are wrong to proclaim their atheism. I was defending their right to do so, and pointing out that the Church is no longer in a position to dictate to people, as once She was. So it wasn’t fundamentally about whether Catholics voluntarily accept Her authority. (However, it’s also my experience that many Catholics in communion *do *have issues with one or other of the Church’s teachings.)

If you think that the Church embodies all truth, I can see that She can be a wonderful device for saving time and worry in the process of forming one’s opinions and determining one’s actions. But one has to accept the fundamental proposition first.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
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