Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[fhansen]

That is beautiful …

The most profound, original & personal truth spoke here in many moons. U are a poet !

Hi, brb3. That’s too kind I’m sure, but very thoughtful. thank you.

 

[Little_Mary]

Martin Luther, in his Commentary on Paul’s Letter to the Galatians, page 389:

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith, working through love.”

Martin Luther: “Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumsion availeth nothing” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing”, is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith”. ~ Martin Luther

The bible cannot contradict itself. And to coin a phrase, “Man cannot live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God”. Every word. The whole book, not parts and pieces.

With that said, there are many verses in the bible that make a very good case for Faith Alone. Sola Fide advocates can give you verse after verse to convince you that it is all about “Faith Alone”. But the bible makes a case for “works” as well… the verses below are taken from the same book that the sola fide advocates get theirs from…

James 2:14-26
Gal 5:6
1 Cor 13:2
Jn 14:15
Matt 19:16-17

 

[fhansen]

Translated, salvation by works. Of course you would find this “beautiful,” BRB, since you contrived your own personal covenant of works with God for your salvation.Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” “Grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) is how GOD saves the sinner upon personal faith in Christ. Not how He enables a sinner to save himself by works.Eph 2:8-0 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”

Salvation begins with God, but it’s not accomplished without us-only because, in His wisdom, He’s deemed to do it that way. So it’s not either God alone or us alone-it’s both/and.

The reason is because our wills are the problem to begin with. Adam & Eve willed wrongly and Gods whole purpose for our lives here on earth is to get man to will rightly; there’s not much point to the whole drama if God’s simply going to do what He could’ve done right after the OS-save us in spite of our actions. What we do counts, that’s why man was cast from the garden. Man separated himself from God by sinning, and the catch-22 is that man cannot refrain from sinning without God-without His Spirit living and guiding us within. But mans’ will is still required for this-that’s the meaning of our free will-that we can oppose God’s will. And the purpose of our lives here, is, sort of like Prodigals, to come to see the perfection of Gods’ will, with the help of His grace, and come to align ours with it. God never created man to sin. Why do you think He’d want less for us now?

 

[moondweller]

Martin Luther, in his Commentary on Paul’s Letter to the Galatians, page 389:

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith, working through love.”

Martin Luther: “Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumsion availeth nothing” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing”, is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith”. ~ Martin Luther

Yes, “without fruits FAITH serves no purpose” (i.e., in serving God and others). But he is correct where he states concerning justification: " i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God.

You need to read him in context.

The bible cannot contradict itself.

It doesn’t. Men contradict the Bible in their doctrines.

 

[fhansen]

Men contradict the Bible in their doctrines.

Exactly

 

[moondweller]

Salvation begins with God, but it’s not accomplished without us-only because, in His wisdom, He’s deemed to do it that way. So it’s not either God alone or us alone-it’s both/and.

"Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

“Grace” is the means by which God Himself saves (those who believe). It’s not the means by which He enables men to work for their salvation. Nowhere in Scripture is it taught: “For by graces He enables you to work for your salvation.”

What we do counts, that’s why man was cast from the garden.

Yes, what the FIRST man did truly did count. And it directly affected all his posterity (you and me, born of him: “made sinners”). But what the SECOND Man did counts even more, and what He (the “Last Adam”) did directly affects His posterity, through faith: Forgiveness of all sins, forever justified in Him, forever reconciled to God by Him, forever sanctified in Him, possessors of eternal life in Him, redeemed (purchased) by Him through His shed blood, made sons of God through faith in Him, and yet to be glorified, bodily, in conformity to Him.

IOW, no longer in the FIRST man, Adam, but now “in Christ,” the SECOND Man, the LAST Adam, Jesus Christ. Therefore the true believer can no more be separated from God than God the Son can. He being the true believer’s new Federal Head (as the first man/Adam once was."…even so grace would reign (as king) through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (see Rom. 5:12-21).This is called salvation through Christ, by grace (Divine favor) through faith.

 

[moondweller]

Exactly

I’m glad you agree."Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Through Christ grace reigns (as king) through righteousness (God’s) to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 5:12-21).

 

[Little_Mary]

You need to read him in context.It doesn’t. Men contradict the Bible in their doctrines.

That’s the whole thing right there. You just won’t see it.

And you missed the point. Go back and read the verses I provided, in context, in light of the subject of this thread.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

This is called salvation through Christ, by grace (Divine favor) through faith.

This is also called Catholic teaching, as it was originally taught, and is still taught by the Catholic Church.

Your problem moondweller, is you don’t share the same reality as the rest of us. You deny what Catholics say is Church teaching because that would rock your world.

Your bugbear about “works” is a fantasy of your own devising. You can’t imagine a world in which Catholics believe in salvation through Faith and not works. Your hair splitting is all semantics and definitions, not reality.

You purposely bait Catholics in such a way as to appear to deny the need for works at all, when you have said over and over you do believe in the importance of works. Why don’t you give it a rest already.

 

[moondweller]

You purposely bait Catholics in such a way as to appear to deny the need for works at all, when you have said over and over you do believe in the importance of works.

But not FOR salvation. Works follow salvation, they’re not a cause of it, according to the Scriptures. Works are for those who have been saved by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9). They’re for those who ARE (now) His workmanship, who ARE (now) created in Christ Jesus FOR them (Eph. 2:10).

Why don’t you give it a rest already.

“Rest?” I thought you believe works are required FOR salvation? Actually, I have “rested” in Christ:Heb 4:10 “For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”

 

[moondweller]

That’s the whole thing right there. You just won’t see it.

I did see it. Here’s what he said:"…works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God."

And you missed the point.

I think you missed his point.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

But not FOR salvation. Works follow salvation, they’re not a cause of it, according to the Scriptures. Works are for those who have been saved by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9). They’re for those who ARE (now) His workmanship, who ARE (now) created in Christ Jesus FOR them (Eph. 2:10).“Rest?” I thought you believe works are required FOR salvation? Actually, I have “rested” in Christ:Heb 4:10 “For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”

You have just proved my point.

 

[Globachio]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

Presbyterians (of which I’m one) believe that God gives faith to whom He will. Faith is not a choice, or a matter of one’s will, but solely of God’s doing. This is why we emphasize His sovereignty. Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the texts we rely upon.

 

[pablope]

Presbyterians (of which I’m one) believe that God gives faith to whom He will. Faith is not a choice, or a matter of one’s will, but solely of God’s doing. This is why we emphasize His sovereignty. Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the texts we rely upon.

Look at verse 10 too. Then how do you reconcile this with the following:

Matthew 7:21

21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

Or this:

James 1:26-27

26 If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless. 27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

 

[Little_Mary]

I did see it. Here’s what he said:"…works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God."I think you missed his point.

You, friend, missed his point. What’s the sentence right after that? And the next? Read the rest of the quote, silly!!! :doh2:

 

[brb3]

You can’t imagine a world in which Catholics believe in salvation through Faith and not works.

Moondweller …

You know most Catholics don’t speak of being SAVED, until their last day. For some, the words ‘saved’ and ‘salvation’ are synonomous. They await Christ to say to them on their last day … "Well done, my good & faithful servant, enter into my glory… " We well know that scripture teaches that many having faith ALONE … fell back into unbelief, having never learned to conquer their love of this life, having failed to PERSEVERE in Well Doing, having forsaken their Lord.

ALL Catholics understand they are brought to adoption IN CHRIST by his grace … and not of their Works or Obedience to the Mosaic Law. For cradle catholics its a continuum process. Baptism removes ‘original sins’ … Confirmation at young age of ‘understanding’ … completes their Baptism[removing Actual sins committed] and the H.S. is conferred upon them via PUBLIC CONFESSION of their FAITH in CHRIST and rejection of satan. Protestants would call this the ‘age of accountability’… when the children can acknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior.

Thus, when Catholic speak of WORKS … its not an infant or child’s attempts to gain God’s favor by LEGALISM — in all aspect of Jewish laws. Catholics are referring to their LIFE LIVED AFTER initial justification by grace, via baptism [faith expressed via the parents for infant] … and made whole by the expressed FAITH of the previously baptized Child, enabling their Confirmation [by laying on of hands/annointing of oil ] and SEALING into CHRIST [with receipt of H.S].

Only now are the Spirit-Filled Catholic children speaking of their need for ‘Works’, befitting their adoption IN CHRIST. And, Catholics RIGHTLY realize/teach we can still reject our Lord and fall away, grieve the H.S., and need necessary REPENTANCE/CONFESSION to restore us again as faithful, renewed children of God, forgiven of Mortal Sins, and in full Communion with God and Church.

So … your making a perpetual brouhaha over WORKS is getting tiresome and tedious. You admit that a professing Protestant/Reformed Christian whose life does not bear fruit [works enabled by grace, and planned from the creation of the world for God’s elect] … is seriously confused, immature, or a pretender.

Catholics are not Judiazers, backslidden and returned to Jewish Legalistic understandings, … and you portray them. Rather, they are Persevering in their Discipleship … and giving God the Glory for all acts of charity, piety, evangelism, teaching, almsgiving, prayers for others, etc. They are simply following the Beatitudes as Christ taught us to, they are striving to live a holy life … just as Christ called all his children to do.

So … get a clue, give up your ‘disconnects’, put the pieces of the puzzle in proper place and see the big picture !!

 

[brb3]

Presbyterians (of which I’m one) believe that God gives faith to whom He will. Faith is not a choice, or a matter of one’s will, but solely of God’s doing. .

So, they are God’s ROBOTS ? The FROZEN CHOZEN !!! Can now sit on their hands, believing they are somehow singled out as God’s special election … and that salvation is not desired of ALL God’s creation ?

Believing somehow the Great Commission of Christ is w/o substance/meaning. Believing that John 3:16 … where the word WHOSOEVER is spoken ---- doesn’t mean ‘everyone’. Believing that God doesn’t love us all equally, doesn’t draw us all via his GRACE, and doesn’t call all to FAITH & REPENTANCE.

So, it’s all SOLEY God’s manipulation of our minds/souls, … that our response to God’s calling is not our choice/decision ?

Does not scripture say “CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE, … BUT FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD”. Are not ALL called by Grace to cooperate with God’s mercy to us, thru Christ’s Cross, … Him suffering for ALL born in Adam ?

 

[Globachio]

Look at verse 10 too. Then how do you reconcile this with the following:

Matthew 7:21

21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

Or this:

James 1:26-27

26 If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless. 27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

They do jibe quite well. The Reformed (e.g., Presbyterians) see the bible as teaching a “2-step” Christianity.

The 1st would be God’s doing alone. He saves us without any contribution from us whatsoever. We haven’t even begun to change; we haven’t “turned over a new leaf”; we are not only dead in our trespasses and sins, we are also enemies of God who wish Him dead and would do anything in our power to kill Him. Yet He sends His only Son to die for such as us. Jesus willingly gave His life for those who hated Him. (Now that’s true love!) This is what the Protestant means by “justification by grace alone.” It’s the one-time event wherein God alone did for us what we cannot do for ourselves. And it’s permanent. (e.g., Romans 8:38-39)

The 2nd step would be the Holy Spirit-wrought change that comes upon us. We now wish to do His will, rather than kill Him, because we love Him. Not “in order to” (thank you Tony DeMello, S.J. - back in the early '80s I took a 7-day retreat under him) get into heaven; not in order to make any demands upon Him; not in order to get anything from Him. But simply because the Christian is now a transformed new creation. This is what God has prepared for us to do from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). This is what the Protestant calls the “process of sanctification.” It also serves to explain Philippians 2:12.

[An aside: The thing is, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism will disagree on this because Roman Catholicism combines the two (justification/sanctification) into one process while the Protestant distinguishes them.]

So the Protestant looks at Matthew 7:21 and understands that the Lord is telling us that not everyone who claims to be a believer truly is. That’s why Matthew 7:20 comes ahead of this. [An aside: Note Matthew 7:23. Jesus says “I NEVER knew you.” Presbyterians see this as indicative of predestination.]

James 1:26 is a marvelous exposition of the same. What fruits does the Christian exhibit? Does he/she control their tongue? Do they help the widow and orphan? If not one may truly wonder whether their profession is truly a confession or not.

So I’m trying not to get Roman Catholics and Protestant riled up and throwing Scripture verses and theological terms at one another. Rather, I’m trying to insure that Roman Catholics (and unlearned Protestants too!) understand - truly understand - where the Reformed position is coming from. This would help keep us from making statements based on what we don’t know rather than what we do know. And if we don’t know … ask. It’s simple humility to do so.

However, this really isn’t even the starting point that separates Roman Catholics and Protestants. One would have to dig deeper and “transcend” (using Rahner’s understanding of that term) the obvious in order to get to the crux of the matter.

Thanks for a wonderful post!

In His Name,
Kevin

 

[fhansen]

Nowhere in Scripture is it taught: "For by graces He enables you to work for your salvation.

Well, it’s more like working out your salvation:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Phil 2:12-13

These verses show the both/and aspect of the need for Gods’ and mans’ wills cooperating in mans’ salvation. In any case there’s way too much scripture telling us what we must do. It’s all about context, context-the whole context. Here’s some of it followed by comments from a couple ECFs:

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

Living by the Spirit is only made possible by Gods’ grace-but it still involves a choice and effort by man, as this and other verses spell out.

**“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36-40

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom13:10**

God would never give man commandments he couldn’t possibly keep-He just knows what Adam & Eve didn’t know and the rest of us need to learn-that we need *Him *in order to be capable of keeping them-and nothing less will satisfy Him. Why should it?

**Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1Pet 1:15-16

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14**

We must do our little part to become worthy to see the Lord. Ultimately, to be holy/perfect is simply to come to love as God loves. And this is a requirement for entrance into heaven, and I agree with the wisdom of this requirement.

**With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matt 19:26

10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1John 4

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5:6

Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more." John 8:11

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Gal 6:7-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10**

continued

 

[fhansen]

**continued:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. 1Cor 9:24-27

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14**

St Paul, who wrote this, also wrote Galatians 3:19-26. Is he saying here that he lacks faith?

**For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. Matt 16:27

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,” (Col 1:24)

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Rom 11:16-24**

Either side can be cut after grafting.

**A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ Mark 10:17

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Matt 5:17-22**

Not merely our actions, but our hearts must be in the right place.

**Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed”

Irenaeus
“[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care” (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [196]).**