Faith

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Edwin,
There are so many because God in His wisdom has not given all knowledge to any one group. Each group is a mixture of truth and falsehood, but I imagine all groups have the basic requirements.
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Why would God in His Wisdom want to keep humans fragmented and watch them fight over Truth??? That doesn’t seem compatible with Christ’s prayer that all may be one. Thanks and God Bless.
 
Ya know, everyone always points to the verses in James, which is fine but what about what JESUS says about the subject?

What about the parables?
The Parable of the Two Sons - one doing the will of the father and the other not.
The Faithful and Unfaithful Servant
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
The Parable of the Talents
The Parable of the of the Fig Tree producing good fruit
The Parable of the Sower
The Parable of the Good Samaratin
The Parable of the Rich Young Man - who could not giveup his riches to follow Jesus
The Parable of the Dishonest Steward
And there are many more like this.

In “The Two Foundations” in Matthew 7: 24-27, he says, 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine AND ACTS ON THEM will be like a wise man who built his house on solid rock…
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but DOES NOT ACT ON THEM will be LIKE A FOOL who built his house on sand…

In Matthew 25: 31-46, “The Judgement of the Nations,” Jesus talks about being naked and we clothed him, hungry and we fed him, etc…45 Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me. 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." These acts in these verses are what we call the Corporal Works of Mercy - demanded by Jesus if we want to see eternal life.

In all of these, Jesus talks about faith but always with works. He always demands works of mercy and love. Faith and works cannot be separate and we will be judged by such as in His parable about the goats and sheep.

There are verses that mention just faith in them but they are not meant as an exclusion of works. You cannot take those verses out of the rest of the teaching about faith and works - your interpretation gets all screwy as you have plainly shown.
 
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edwinG:
Hi Lisa4Catholics,
This quote regards supernatural healing through divine forgiveness. Only God can do this and these apostles were given this authority to completely forgive.
When you and I forgive someone we are aiding their healing and stopping satan from taking a foothold in our lives by not holding on to some unforgiveness which eats away at us, but only on an individual basis. For the person to be completely healed everyone would have to forgive them, completely. Their sin against us is not the sum total of their sins, I imagine. Of course we also read that some people are ill for the glory of God, not because of sin. We who lack understanding cant tell.
walk in love
edwinG
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I do not comprehend what you are trying to say Edwin?Of course God forgives,but Edwin He gave starting with the Apostles the authority to forgive sins,the Holy Spirit is breathed on them Edwin.When a certain couple lied to Peter about the profits they receive both dropped dead,notice Peter doesn’t say you lied to me,but you lied to the Holy Spirit!He had the authority given to him.
 
Hi, edwinG,

A most interesting thread.

Two questions, if I may:

Would you explain to me what the word
“lawlessness” means to you? I take it that
it’s from St. Paul?

Secondly, are you saying that you are
opposed to the codification of behavior?
In the Catholic Church, there are two
lists called the corporal and spiritual works
of mercy. These are taken directly from
the gospels, and ‘fleshed’ out, in some sense.

For example:
Visit the sick.
Counsel the doubtful
Bury the dead…meaning, attend the burial
service, comfort the mourners

Is it the “listing” out of such that you object to?
Are these ‘rules’ in your view?
Are there not individuals who rejoice in having
such a ‘list’ to consult, so that they can be
clear in their hearts that they are serving God
according to the gospels?

BTW, I do understand what you are saying in
your posts and even agree with much of it.
What I don’t get is, what ‘rules’ in Catholicism,
specifically, do you find objectionable.

Or, are you simply saying that if you follow
the ‘rules’, as in a game of monopoly, that
you are not serving Jesus with your heart?
That it can be a ‘mechanical’ thing, rather
than works prompted by and aided by the
Holy Spirit?

I’d appreciate your view on the above,
Thanks,
reen
 
I want a position of responsibility in heaven.
walk in love
edwinG
Click to expand...
Matthew 20:20 Then came to him the mother of the sons of Zebedee with her sons, adoring and asking something of him.

21 Who said to her: What wilt thou? She saith to him: Say that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left, in thy kingdom. 22 And Jesus answering, said: You know not what you ask. Can you drink the chalice that I shall drink? They say to him: We can. 23 He saith to them: My chalice indeed you shall drink; but to sit on my right or left hand, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared by my Father. 24 And the ten hearing it, were moved with indignation against the two brethren. 25 But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them.

26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. 28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.

Luke 14: 7 And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them: 8 When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him: 9 And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee, Give this man place: and then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee, cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee.

11 Because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.
 
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DianJo:
Ya know, everyone always points to the verses in James, which is fine but what about what JESUS says about the subject?
…
In Matthew 25: 31-46, “The Judgement of the Nations,” Jesus talks about being naked and we clothed him, hungry and we fed him, etc…45 Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me. 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." These acts in these verses are what we call the Corporal Works of Mercy - demanded by Jesus if we want to see eternal life.

In all of these, Jesus talks about faith but always with works. He always demands works of mercy and love. Faith and works cannot be separate and we will be judged by such as in His parable about the goats and sheep.

There are verses that mention just faith in them but they are not meant as an exclusion of works. You cannot take those verses out of the rest of the teaching about faith and works - your interpretation gets all screwy as you have plainly shown.
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This is a very good point DJ and this is exactly how the Bible speaks to me of faith and works.

Frankly, I think Edwin is trying to imply that Catholicism is legalistic or something, which is patently untrue. He might want it to seem that way, so he can hand us all a bunch of sweetly wrapped (pentecostal) statements about following the Holy Spirit, but I think he understands very little of what our most holy faith is all about, and I doubt very seriously if he’s ever seen or read the CCC if he’s willing to refer to it as “2,000 rules”.

To Edwin: I recommend that you go out and get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and actually sit down and prayerfully read it all the way through. You’ll find that it is anything but a list of rules. I have read it (and have a copy sitting right here right now.) and it does more to enhance my own faith and understanding of my relationship with God than anything else but the Bible.
Pax vobiscum,
 
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edwinG:
Hi Huiou Theou,
This is your quote that is in block.
Edwin, Faith is a petty work. You must believe.

So are you telling me that Abraham’s work was petty.
I believe that “faith” and “belief” are different parts of the same word, but that faith also contains the element of trust.
I am confident that Abraham not only believed God but he also trusted Him.
And you are calling this petty?
Surely somehow I am mistaken.
walk in love
edwinG
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If it is not ‘petty’ then Abraham has something to boast about.
He BELIEVED after all!
When I say petty, I am emphasizing that nothing is earned.
Abraham has no claim to his own salvation, for it is a gift.
I bellieve that faith and works are two parts of the same word.
 
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slinky1882:
Edwin,

Why would God in His Wisdom want to keep humans fragmented and watch them fight over Truth??? That doesn’t seem compatible with Christ’s prayer that all may be one. Thanks and God Bless.
Click to expand...
Hi slinky1882,
I am positive you are right. God definitely does not want us to fight. In fact the command is to love one another. Converse with one another edify one another. I can learn from the people here or someone at the shopping centre or on a bus.
His wisdom is not limited. I have faith in the Holy Spirit that the world is as God forsaw. All the laws are in our hearts and in our minds, this is the new covenant. We should never be in a position where anger is roused.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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DianJo:
Ya know, everyone always points to the verses in James, which is fine but what about what JESUS says about the subject?

What about the parables?
The Parable of the Two Sons - one doing the will of the father and the other not.
The Faithful and Unfaithful Servant
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
The Parable of the Talents
The Parable of the of the Fig Tree producing good fruit
The Parable of the Sower
The Parable of the Good Samaratin
The Parable of the Rich Young Man - who could not giveup his riches to follow Jesus
The Parable of the Dishonest Steward
And there are many more like this.

In “The Two Foundations” in Matthew 7: 24-27, he says, 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine AND ACTS ON THEM will be like a wise man who built his house on solid rock…
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but DOES NOT ACT ON THEM will be LIKE A FOOL who built his house on sand…

In Matthew 25: 31-46, “The Judgement of the Nations,” Jesus talks about being naked and we clothed him, hungry and we fed him, etc…45 Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me. 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." These acts in these verses are what we call the Corporal Works of Mercy - demanded by Jesus if we want to see eternal life.

In all of these, Jesus talks about faith but always with works. He always demands works of mercy and love. Faith and works cannot be separate and we will be judged by such as in His parable about the goats and sheep.

There are verses that mention just faith in them but they are not meant as an exclusion of works. You cannot take those verses out of the rest of the teaching about faith and works - your interpretation gets all screwy as you have plainly shown.
Click to expand...
Hi DianJo,
Good post but remember that there is a very clear distinction between them and that faith must come before works. Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt
4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

These verses are not in opposition with James which said faith without works is dead.
They both point to the same answer. Faith leads to works. Works not done by faith are of no value and works done as a measure to obtain salvation are actually a debt (4:4)
That is why one HAS to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. He gives us the work, which exercises our faith. They are inseparatable, the Holy Spirit and works from faith. God is Love.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
I do not comprehend what you are trying to say Edwin?Of course God forgives,but Edwin He gave starting with the Apostles the authority to forgive sins,the Holy Spirit is breathed on them Edwin.When a certain couple lied to Peter about the profits they receive both dropped dead,notice Peter doesn’t say you lied to me,but you lied to the Holy Spirit!He had the authority given to him.
Click to expand...
Hi Lisa,
I am still waiting on you to answer my response to your first post. See post 42.
Thank you
walk in love
edwinG
 
Good post but remember that there is a very clear distinction between them and that faith must come before works. Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt
4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
Click to expand...
yes, but faith is a work. It is something you do.
So it trust. I either choose to trust or not.

The distinction is the kind of work they are. The unsaid adjective.
Does faith come before work, faith is a work!
A particular trusting, pithy kind of work.
One which does not cause God to have a debt, for there is no earning going on.
 
Edwin: "If you have faith it is impossible not to have works.
You can have works by the ton and no faith."

I agree with that. And the second sentence: all good comes from Jesus, even in a heathen. So I suppose I agree, but this heathen may have faith and not even realize it, through the grace of God.

Edwin: "Hi LtTony,
" …Yes we cant have one without the other but the point is that faith preceeds works. If a person has faith he MUST have works. The works prove his faith. But if you look at a person who has works, this is not necessarily a sign of faith. See how Jesus rejected some people who cast out demons in His name saying they were practising lawlessness."
Yes. A slam dunk.

"…Yes you are correct from my point of view but people have different biases and many tend towards the importants of works."…"So it is not really fine tuning but extremenly important that the distinction is made."

Here’s where we agree to disagree. We’ve agreed that one has to have faith with works and works without faith doesn’t cut it (James turns this around to state the same truth). But here is where we get to the semantics that I complained about: some people want to put a measurement these things. You have them both, you’re saved. Let God make the “distinctions.” I don’t think any of us is in a position to state anything definitive on the matter. I mean, was Peter more saved than (doubting) Thomas?

chipper: "In our life we all sin first, then we come to accept Jesus. How de we come to accept Jesus? By doing a work first. We strive and strive and study and then finally one day we accept his offer. So once again faith is second."

I think I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think the act of accepting Christ is a work, a physical outward sign of faith. Even for the thief on the cross. But I’ll bet he wanted to perform a work and would have had he been able to get off his cross. I believe God knows that; He knows everything. But again, we’re quantifying faith. The thief had one work and disciple ‘B’ had 20. I do think that’s what purgatory is about, but that’s not the topic.

Huiou: "Abraham did it, he BELIEVED, therefore he DID it.
It is a work, something to DO. It is all over scripture.
Abraham has no claim to his own salvation, for it is a gift.
I bellieve that faith and works are two parts of the same word."

Bam! Thank you. I nearly always look to Abe when faith and works comes up. The work flowed from his faith. Couldn’t be more clear.
After that my thought process goes to Jesus. His faith in God the Father led to the crucifixtion. Jesus didn’t just say he loved us, he showed it. As for us, there are times when we may want our own cup to pass, but we have to pick up our cross, like our Lord. That is works. Like James states, put up or shut up.

Edwin: If a person states they have faith, are baptized, but if they continue to lead a sinful life (and no or few works result), then they had no faith to begin with or only a small amount? What is the consequence of the distinction? When we get this deep I think we have to let go and take comfort : only God can judge. Can’t God make fine distinctions in his judgement of a Christian who gets the basics, but has failures along with successes in his Christian life? Which pretty much describes me.
While this thread may be interesting, I don’t think the “fine distinction” of the subject is a “difference maker.”

Jim
 
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reen12:
Hi, edwinG,

A most interesting thread.

Two questions, if I may:

Would you explain to me what the word
“lawlessness” means to you? I take it that
it’s from St. Paul?

Secondly, are you saying that you are
opposed to the codification of behavior?
In the Catholic Church, there are two
lists called the corporal and spiritual works
of mercy. These are taken directly from
the gospels, and ‘fleshed’ out, in some sense.

For example:
Visit the sick.
Counsel the doubtful
Bury the dead…meaning, attend the burial
service, comfort the mourners

Is it the “listing” out of such that you object to?
Are these ‘rules’ in your view?
Are there not individuals who rejoice in having
such a ‘list’ to consult, so that they can be
clear in their hearts that they are serving God
according to the gospels?

BTW, I do understand what you are saying in
your posts and even agree with much of it.
What I don’t get is, what ‘rules’ in Catholicism,
specifically, do you find objectionable.

Or, are you simply saying that if you follow
the ‘rules’, as in a game of monopoly, that
you are not serving Jesus with your heart?
That it can be a ‘mechanical’ thing, rather
than works prompted by and aided by the
Holy Spirit?

I’d appreciate your view on the above,
Thanks,
reen
Click to expand...
Hi reen,
Thanks for your post.
I had better explain myself a little. I dont have a knowledge of church terminology and I find it confusing in many instances.
Lawlessness to me is not following God’s will.
I feel this is a very dangerous area for Christians. We work our way into God’s graces and then are seduced by His abundance and become hard hearted. I have some fear of this, not that it is happening but that I should always be mindful and guard against it. This is not to say that the person is lost, but it surely would be a tough road back. I think sometimes He lets me wander down the wrong track sometimes so that I can have a sense of needing His strength and this helps me from puffing up. In confidence I have charged off without Him and been brought to my knees, actually, begging for His strength to overcome.
Yes, I fear that the list of rules, thought not knowing what they are exactly but knowing that they would all be “good” practises.
The list, being listed takes on an identity and it is almost as if people can tick things off. I do this and this and this therefore I am doing works. The works being done are good but they are being done for the wrong reasons.
See Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
We need to follow our heart. We also need to know the word so that we can not be easily deceived. Then by stepping out in faith we do works. It may be just picking up a piece of rubbish and taking it to a bin.
Note God said He will have mercy on whomever He wants to. This is so beautiful . This means we have the power to decide who we want to help in sincerity from our heart and then to help them and
it will be counted. Without this passage from God it would mean we would have to help everyone or no one. What mighty wisdom.
Yes some personalities are surely comforted by lists. I am too.But we are to step outside of our comfort zone and follow the Holy Spirit. This is a blessing as it builds our faith and with the building of our faith we become more valuable to Him and He can use us for more and more important works. This He can’t do if we dont build our faith, by sitting still and trusting in a list. A list cant tell us to cross over the street and help the person on the other side of the road who is lost. But if we practise following the Holy Spirit we will grow in faith and confidence and be able to help more people. We are His servants, not put here to follow a bunch of rules but to help Him care and love all people. Christians are supposed to be helping God love and care for all people in the world and here we are sitting on our butts following a bunch of rules and not stepping out. We are tied up saving ourselves and constantly battling satan for our own salvation instead of trusting in our salvation and being out going and caring for and saving the rest of the world. Our energies are misspent.

We need to be doing His work.

If I have not answered completely please ask again. I am running off at the mouth a bit and this post is quite long.
walk in love
edwinG
 
Church Militant:
Matthew 20:20 Then came to him the mother of the sons of Zebedee with her sons, adoring and asking something of him.

21 Who said to her: What wilt thou? She saith to him: Say that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left, in thy kingdom. 22 And Jesus answering, said: You know not what you ask. Can you drink the chalice that I shall drink? They say to him: We can. 23 He saith to them: My chalice indeed you shall drink; but to sit on my right or left hand, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared by my Father. 24 And the ten hearing it, were moved with indignation against the two brethren. 25 But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them.

26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. 28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.

Luke 14: 7 And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them: 8 When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him: 9 And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee, Give this man place: and then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee, cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee.

11 Because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.
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Hi Church Militant,
I Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
Proverbs 13:4 "The soul of a lazy man desires, and has nothing.
walk in love
edwinG
 
Church Militant:
This is a very good point DJ and this is exactly how the Bible speaks to me of faith and works.

Frankly, I think Edwin is trying to imply that Catholicism is legalistic or something, which is patently untrue. He might want it to seem that way, so he can hand us all a bunch of sweetly wrapped (pentecostal) statements about following the Holy Spirit, but I think he understands very little of what our most holy faith is all about, and I doubt very seriously if he’s ever seen or read the CCC if he’s willing to refer to it as “2,000 rules”.

To Edwin: I recommend that you go out and get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and actually sit down and prayerfully read it all the way through. You’ll find that it is anything but a list of rules. I have read it (and have a copy sitting right here right now.) and it does more to enhance my own faith and understanding of my relationship with God than anything else but the Bible.
Pax vobiscum,
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Hi Church Militant,
I must not be making my point clearly.
One must do something to build their faith. Faith is a measureable gift. It comes in sizes and you can exercise it. It wont grow by reading only. Faith grows by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Please try it. You will succeed and the result will be joy. Trust in Him.
walk in love
edwinG
 
Huiou Theou:
If it is not ‘petty’ then Abraham has something to boast about.
He BELIEVED after all!
When I say petty, I am emphasizing that nothing is earned.
Abraham has no claim to his own salvation, for it is a gift.
I bellieve that faith and works are two parts of the same word.
Click to expand...
Hi Huiou Theou,
Well, as this is only a petty matter by your standards , I look forward to reading your testimony of a similar “petty” show of your faith. As it is only ‘petty’ it should be easy for you.
Walk in love
edwinG
 
No, Edwin,
Not a petty matter - a petty work.

In the original example, an object of great value, is obtained by a petty work. Just go get it. But it is a work. GO get it.

What purely human work is not petty in the sight of God?
I’m humble,

"Job were you there when I laid the foundataions of the world? "
 
Huiou Theou:
yes, but faith is a work. It is something you do.
So it trust. I either choose to trust or not.

The distinction is the kind of work they are. The unsaid adjective.
Does faith come before work, faith is a work!
A particular trusting, pithy kind of work.
One which does not cause God to have a debt, for there is no earning going on.
Click to expand...
Hi Huiou Theou,
What are you saying? Are there circumstances in which God owes us something, faith not being one of these circumstances because faith is not a work that earns. Can you please list those circumstances whereby God is placed in debt.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi DianJo,
Good post but remember that there is a very clear distinction between them and that faith must come before works. Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt
4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

These verses are not in opposition with James which said faith without works is dead.
They both point to the same answer. Faith leads to works. Works not done by faith are of no value and works done as a measure to obtain salvation are actually a debt (4:4)
That is why one HAS to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. He gives us the work, which exercises our faith. They are inseparatable, the Holy Spirit and works from faith. God is Love.
walk in love
edwinG
Click to expand...
Edwin, I think we are saying the same thing here! Our works are by the grace of God for which we were created. We are saved by grace through faith working in love. In Romans, Paul is talking about works of the LAW - the Mosaic Law - those works count for nothing which are the works you are speaking of.

You seem to think that our works (produced by the Holy Spirit) warrant no merit at all and that is not what we are saying. Our works do merit before God - they DO count for something. Jesus makes this clear when separating the sheep from the goats - according to their works. In all of Jesus’ parables, we are rewarded for doing the will (works) of the Father.
 
Huiou Theou:
No, Edwin,
Not a petty matter - a petty work.

In the original example, an object of great value, is obtained by a petty work. Just go get it. But it is a work. GO get it.

What purely human work is not petty in the sight of God?
I’m humble,

"Job were you there when I laid the foundataions of the world? "
Click to expand...
Hi Huiou Theou,
Well then. Edify us with your testimony of your “petty” work.
It will gladden my heart.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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