Faith

[Huiou_Theou]

edwinG:

Hi Huiou Theou,
What are you saying? Are there circumstances in which God owes us something, faith not being one of these circumstances because faith is not a work that earns. Can you please list those circumstances whereby God is placed in debt.
walk in love
edwinG

Stictly speaking there are no works which place God in debt. That is the point of Rom 4: No work truly earns in the sense that one can boast.
There are works which are valuable because God’s gift is obtained by them, and there are works which are useless because God’s gift is not obtained by them.

---

When lord did I clothe you?
Whenever you did it for the to least of my brothers, you did it for me.

 

[edwinG]

LtTony:

So it is not really fine tuning but extremenly important that the distinction is made."

Let God make the “distinctions.” I don’t think any of us is in a position to state anything definitive on the matter. I mean, was Peter more saved than (doubting) Thomas?

Hi LtTony,
" Was Peter more saved than Thomas" I love the clarity of this line. But this is not the distinction I was talking about. I believe that both of these people are saved, but then I also believe that in heaven we will be rewarded and those who have built up strong faith will have done more work for God and be given greater authority in heaven.
Romans 4:4 Now to him who works , the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
I feel the difference is what is in the heart when the work is done. If the heart is compassion I believe it is from God, but if it is to satisfy a list or to say I need to do some good works this week etc. ( I hope you understand the mentality I am talking about) then this is not counted as grace but as debt. Here one is saved the other not.

chipper: "In our life we all sin first, then we come to accept Jesus. How de we come to accept Jesus? By doing a work first. We strive and strive and study and then finally one day we accept his offer. So once again faith is second."

.

I strongly disagree that we accept Jesus by doing a work first. We are led to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. We dont go to Him.
Ephesians 1:4 Just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

**Huiou: " **

Abraham has no claim to his own salvation, for it is a gift.
Bam! Thank you. I nearly always look to Abe when faith and works comes up. The work flowed from his faith. Couldn’t be more clear.
After that my thought process goes to Jesus. His faith in God the Father led to the crucifixtion. Jesus didn’t just say he loved us, he showed it. As for us, there are times when we may want our own cup to pass, but we have to pick up our cross, like our Lord. That is works. Like James states, put up or shut up.

Did you leave out the part that Jesus said His soul was crushed to the point of death and blood came out of the pores of His skin. He had to be aided by the Holy Spirit. Do you count this as nothing.
What does Paul say, about subduing the flesh. No you are mistaken to think that Faith makes it simply a walk in the park.
God said He tested Abraham. So Abraham suffered making his decision based on His faith. It is not always a whiz bam thank you mam decision.

Edwin: If a person states they have faith, are baptized, but if they continue to lead a sinful life (and no or few works result), then they had no faith to begin with or only a small amount? What is the consequence of the distinction? When we get this deep I think we have to let go and take comfort : only God can judge. Can’t God make fine distinctions in his judgement of a Christian who gets the basics, but has failures along with successes in his Christian life? Which pretty much describes me.
While this thread may be interesting, I don’t think the “fine distinction” of the subject is a “difference maker.”

Jim, This is not easy and I am guessing.
But my life was a baptism when I was a baby, church for a few years, then a gap for about 30 years then church for a year or so, then a gap for maybe 20 years and then a calling. Now from my baptism to my calling I was on a very long leash and was hooked on a few addictions, smokes alcohol to a smaller extent, porn, and sex, chatting on the internet , golf plus many things. I was complusive. But God saved me a few times during my life and He also gave me some glory on and off but about 6-7 years ago He called me and since then bit by bit He has been paring away at my addictions and compulsions and bad habits. Overeating seems to be the only large old batterfield left now and that is almost conquered as His strength is now taking over and helping my struggles. I now only have to break the habit as the compulsion has passed. Christ is such a gently teacher.
So if I look at your life, my advice would be to relax, enjoy your life, be a kind and compassionate person and pray for all things except materialistic things. The best feature I would recommend you to practise is to submit. Submit to all people and in all situations and pray to Jesus and ask Him. It is simply amazing. In my life, I have no need to argue with anyone. I submit and pray. If Christ agrees with me, I have my way and if He doesnt, I dont have my way, but I never upset anyone by trying to exert my will. If you want more info on this please ask. When it is time He will call you and by His strength you will be victorious.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I feel the difference is what is in the heart when the work is done. If the heart is compassion I believe it is from God, but if it is to satisfy a list or to say I need to do some good works this week etc. ( I hope you understand the mentality I am talking about) then this is not counted as grace but as debt. Here one is saved the other not.

I think that is right. A devil has nothing in the heart when it believes. But why, for a person faithfully-working, is there a hangup over having a list? No work, on a list or off of it, is going to endebt God in any strict sense. The working of belief, or trust, (faith) does not endebt God either.

But God has promised, so we have hope that he will give what he promises. And his promises are tied to all of our works, from the infantile work of belief to the mature work of doing as Jesus does.

I do not agree with the posts wich divide faith from works. Faith is a work. There is no first comes work then faith, nor first comes faith then works. A work is either one which obtains the gift of God, or it isn’t.
If the work obtains the gift of God, then God is present during the work. The holy Spirit pushes, the Father pulls, and we are led.

The passage of Romans speaks of a group of works called faith, and a worthless group of works given no new name – just called works.

Abraham did grow by doing faithful works throughout his life.
He grew and his faith grew.

No, it was not easy for Abraham. Nor for me.
This work God has begun in us, we hope will be brought to completion. But what can a man do except a petty work.

 

[Exporter]

Jimmy wrote,“I am not sure what your point is. What my point is, is that by praying and by repenting you are doing some sort of an act. To simply have faith does not mean that you will pray or repent. Satan has faith, but he is in hell.”

---

No Jimmy, Satan is not in hell yet. Satan and his demons roam the earth seeking to ruin the souls of men. Take a look, Satan is not in hell yet.

 

[reen12]

Hello,

You know, I’ve been thinking about, not only
this thread, but others as well, and I’ve come
to a conclusion I’d like to share with you.

It seems that some RC’s tend to rail at the idea of
the Church being one denomination among
many. I looked “denomination” up in the
dictionary, and the idea conveyed was a
group with a set of beliefs and
an acknowledged leadership [hierarchy].

How anyone can question that the RC Church
is the direct line of that Church established by
Jesus, I don’t get.

What i do “get” is that because the Church
is first in time and existed, undivided, basically,
until 1054 and again in the early 16th c., that
it declares itself to be the true Church.

I realized, admittedly with a sense of shock,
that those coming from other denominations
truly do see the Church as one denomination
among many, which Church stumbled badly in
the early 16th century, “dropped” the torch, so
to speak, and that the torch was picked up
and carried forward by others.

So I can say: “Yes, but the Council of X stated
Y” and get the response: “So what?” And it
is a truly meant "So what? A “So what?” without
batting an eye, so to speak.

At first, I was incredulous at this kind of reply.
To say: “Yes, but the Church says…” and recieve
the reply: “Yes, but your’s is only one Christian
church” I found disorienting at first. At first.
Now I understand much better the orientation
toward Faith that non-Catholic Christians have.

To say that I understand it, does not necessarily
imply that I agree with it. But it does help in the
exchange of thoughts.

reen

“Inadequate, and loving it!”

 

[edwinG]

Huiou Theou:

I think that is right. A devil has nothing in the heart when it believes. But why, for a person faithfully-working, is there a hangup over having a list? No work, on a list or off of it, is going to endebt God in any strict sense. The working of belief, or trust, (faith) does not endebt God either.

But God has promised, so we have hope that he will give what he promises. And his promises are tied to all of our works, from the infantile work of belief to the mature work of doing as Jesus does.

I do not agree with the posts wich divide faith from works. Faith is a work. There is no first comes work then faith, nor first comes faith then works. A work is either one which obtains the gift of God, or it isn’t.
If the work obtains the gift of God, then God is present during the work. The holy Spirit pushes, the Father pulls, and we are led.

The passage of Romans speaks of a group of works called faith, and a worthless group of works given no new name – just called works.

Abraham did grow by doing faithful works throughout his life.
He grew and his faith grew.

No, it was not easy for Abraham. Nor for me.
This work God has begun in us, we hope will be brought to completion. But what can a man do except a petty work.

Hi Huiou Theou,
I still can not see how you can declare an act of faith as a petty work.
Matthew26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to the point of death. Stay here and watch with Me. 39 " He went a little further and fell on His face …”
Mark 14:34 almost a repetition
Luke 22:43 Then an angel appeared and strengthened Him
Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In love I caution you, Huiou Theou.

I believed that Jesus did not fully suffer as an ordinary man to death but that He was aided by the Holy Spirit who reduced the level of pain.
Now at this time I had been carrying a troublesome tooth for about 4 years. It was falling to pieces in my mouth and quite painful, but I refused to go to a dentist as the Holy Spirit had not led me there.
On a Monday morning I went to school to work, but my first 3 classes had been cancelled. My first teaching was at 3 o’clock in the afternoon. I decided to read some notes and as I picked them up a business card fell out. I cant read Thai, but I do understand a drawing of a tooth so I took it over to a Thai teacher and asked where the dentist was. I said to God if the dentist was near to the school I would look at it as a sign. The teacher said the dentist was just outside the village where I live, which was only about 6 minutes away. I then asked for permission to leave the school and go to the dentist. Permission was given. Now on the way , I said that if the dentist took me without waiting I would accept that it was His will. In Australia you have to wait about 3 weeks. So along I went and I walked straight in to reception who took my details, I sat down for 5 minutes and was ushered in.
The next 3 hours were the most painful of my life. I played football for almost the first 25 years of my life and every game at senior level was a battle. You cant play football and not get knocked around. I took so many analgesics that I am now allergic to non steroidal anti-inflamatories. So pain was not a stranger to me. The tooth was infected so the painkillers did not work. The tooth ended up braking into 4 pieces, so the dentist would drill a leverage spot on the root, down in the gum so she had a gripping place to pull. Then she would try to pull out a piece which would break off. She was literally lifting me out of the chair because of the pain.
After I arrived home the school rang and said my last class had been cancelled as well.
I now understand completely that Jesus suffered as all man suffer. This has not been my only teaching but this was the most painful one. I am now very cautious about being “flippant” in my assessments of others trials.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

reen12:

Hello,

You know, I’ve been thinking about, not only
this thread, but others as well, and I’ve come
to a conclusion I’d like to share with you.

It seems that some RC’s tend to rail at the idea of
the Church being one denomination among
many. I looked “denomination” up in the
dictionary, and the idea conveyed was a
group with a set of beliefs and
an acknowledged leadership [hierarchy].

How anyone can question that the RC Church
is the direct line of that Church established by
Jesus, I don’t get.

What i do “get” is that because the Church
is first in time and existed, undivided, basically,
until 1054 and again in the early 16th c., that
it declares itself to be the true Church.

I realized, admittedly with a sense of shock,
that those coming from other denominations
truly do see the Church as one denomination
among many, which Church stumbled badly in
the early 16th century, “dropped” the torch, so
to speak, and that the torch was picked up
and carried forward by others.

So I can say: “Yes, but the Council of X stated
Y” and get the response: “So what?” And it
is a truly meant "So what? A “So what?” without
batting an eye, so to speak.

At first, I was incredulous at this kind of reply.
To say: “Yes, but the Church says…” and recieve
the reply: “Yes, but your’s is only one Christian
church” I found disorienting at first. At first.
Now I understand much better the orientation
toward Faith that non-Catholic Christians have.

To say that I understand it, does not necessarily
imply that I agree with it. But it does help in the
exchange of thoughts.

reen

“Inadequate, and loving it!”

Hi reen,
Understanding is great material to build strong bridges.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

reen12:

Hello,

You know, I’ve been thinking about, not only
this thread, but others as well, and I’ve come
to a conclusion I’d like to share with you.

It seems that some RC’s tend to rail at the idea of
the Church being one denomination among
many. I looked “denomination” up in the
dictionary, and the idea conveyed was a
group with a set of beliefs and
an acknowledged leadership [hierarchy].

How anyone can question that the RC Church
is the direct line of that Church established by
Jesus, I don’t get.

What i do “get” is that because the Church
is first in time and existed, undivided, basically,
until 1054 and again in the early 16th c., that
it declares itself to be the true Church.

I realized, admittedly with a sense of shock,
that those coming from other denominations
truly do see the Church as one denomination
among many, which Church stumbled badly in
the early 16th century, “dropped” the torch, so
to speak, and that the torch was picked up
and carried forward by others.

So I can say: “Yes, but the Council of X stated
Y” and get the response: “So what?” And it
is a truly meant "So what? A “So what?” without
batting an eye, so to speak.

At first, I was incredulous at this kind of reply.
To say: “Yes, but the Church says…” and recieve
the reply: “Yes, but your’s is only one Christian
church” I found disorienting at first. At first.
Now I understand much better the orientation
toward Faith that non-Catholic Christians have.

To say that I understand it, does not necessarily
imply that I agree with it. But it does help in the
exchange of thoughts.

reen

“Inadequate, and loving it!”

Hi again reen,
How often do we see Jesus scattering the flock. Is this bad?
walk in love
edwinG

 

[TheGarg]

edwinG:

Hi The Garg,
I dont understand. Can you give me an example of the separation of faith and works. To me it is by faith that we are able to respond to the request from the Holy Spirit.
walk in love
edwinG

NO i can’t give you an example of a seperation of faith and works, that is my whole point, but the protestant world never promotes the works as “needed for salvation”, which is unscriptural.

If you can’t seperate the two then they are both necassary for salvation.

EX: If i say “Lord, Lord”, and then deny my brethern, what God commands me to do for them[charity, good works, witness], i will surely burn in Hell…do you disagree.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

IF pauls Faith were all that were necassary, then why would he work on them in fear and trembling…Faith is not a gaurantee for salvation, but what you “do”[action] with that faith…salvation is a life long process…can you deny this?

 

[reen12]

Hi, edwinG,

Tell me what “scattering the flock” is, OK?

I’ve been trying to negotiate Jesus praying:
“That they all may be one, Heavenly Father,
as You and I are one,” with the existence
of the various denominations.

The tentative conclusion I’m coming to…and
mind you, *very *tentative…is, are we pouring
energy into trying to achieve the wrong concept
of “unity.”

What “confession” can *all *Christians make?

Christ has died.
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
We are justified by the death of Jesus.
We are saved by Jesus [set aside faith/works for a moment.*]
God is Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God.
The Lord’s Prayer…surely we can all say this in unity.

Yes, understanding does build strong bridges.

Maybe the Christian thing to do is to all meet
in the middle of the bridge to discuss ways that
we can work together to alleviate the suffering of
all human beings, agreeing to tell people the Good
News that the Messiah has come and proclaiming
Jesus is Lord.

What do you think, edwinG?

reen

 

[slinky1882]

reen12:

Hi, edwinG,

Tell me what “scattering the flock” is, OK?

I’ve been trying to negotiate Jesus praying:
“That they all may be one, Heavenly Father,
as You and I are one,” with the existence
of the various denominations.

The tentative conclusion I’m coming to…and
mind you, *very *tentative…is, are we pouring
energy into trying to achieve the wrong concept
of “unity.”

What “confession” can *all *Christians make?

Christ has died.
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
We are justified by the death of Jesus.
We are saved by Jesus [set aside *faith/works

for a moment*.*]
God is Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God.
The Lord’s Prayer…surely we can all say this in unity.

Yes, understanding does build strong bridges.

Maybe the Christian thing to do is to all meet
in the middle of the bridge to discuss ways that
we can work together to alleviate the suffering of
all human beings, agreeing to tell people the Good
News that the Messiah has come and proclaiming
Jesus is Lord.

What do you think, edwinG?

reen

Hey reen, how are you tonight??? A couple of questions. Could you explain your tentative observation on trying to achieve the wrong concept of unity??? Second, should the Credo (I believe) of Christians be changed to what most can agree upon??? I ask that because even with the traits listed, not all denominations agree. The Catholic thing to do is to return to the Pontiff (from the Latin words for “bridge builder”), and here, I am speaking for the Catholic Church. And on the flip side, all Christians do not agree on what constitues “suffering of all human beings”. And as a side note, the first ecumenical council of monotheistic religions ended in the death of Christ and was a failure. From the Catholic perspective, the Church has nor more right do deny Her Divine Mission than Christ did to deny HIs Divinity. Food for thought. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[jax8686]

Second, should the Credo (I believe) of Christians be changed to what most can agree upon???

and why are we trying to change the church to fit ourselves instead of changing for Christs true church instead? thats what Martin Luther tried… 50000denomonations later… well, you get it… and when the chruch “dropped the torch”…? sure we had some screwy people in charge… that doesnt mean the church in itself ever changed. The CC was protected in that way by the Holy Spirit, so all a “corrupt” pope could do is badly use the churches resources… he technically couldnt mess up the church, only the people who listened to him… “And Lo, I Am With You Untill The End” Matt 28:20, "The gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail"Matt 16:18

 

[edwinG]

reen12:

Hi, edwinG,

Tell me what “scattering the flock” is, OK?

I’ve been trying to negotiate Jesus praying:
“That they all may be one, Heavenly Father,
as You and I are one,” with the existence
of the various denominations.

The tentative conclusion I’m coming to…and
mind you, *very *tentative…is, are we pouring
energy into trying to achieve the wrong concept
of “unity.”

What “confession” can *all *Christians make?

Christ has died.
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
We are justified by the death of Jesus.
We are saved by Jesus [set aside *faith/works

for a moment*.*]
God is Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God.
The Lord’s Prayer…surely we can all say this in unity.

Yes, understanding does build strong bridges.

Maybe the Christian thing to do is to all meet
in the middle of the bridge to discuss ways that
we can work together to alleviate the suffering of
all human beings, agreeing to tell people the Good
News that the Messiah has come and proclaiming
Jesus is Lord.

What do you think, edwinG?

reen
Hi reen,
I agree on the commonality of confessions and with what you write.
No fireworks are needed.
This is how it is done
Here is my hand.
Hello brother. May Christ grow in your heart and His abundance fill your life
walk in love
edwinG

 

[jimmy]

edwinG:

Hi jimmy,
Yes we are agreed. I dont understand your use of sacrifice. Can you explain this to me please.
walk in love
edwinG

When I said sacrifice, I was basically saying that we can not both live our lives how we want and be saved. Often we have the urge to do what is against God. We have to sacrifice and do what God desires us to do.

 

[Ignatius]

edwinG:

Hi,
I have another unanswered thread on the site but I am too busy at the moment to answer it. However,I am compelled to put these words before you.
Who is your father?
It has to be between satan and God.
If it is God,
He says that He will search for you,
He says He will compel you to enter,
He says His arm is not short.
What do YOU have to do.
Believe Him
Your 2000 rules will harden your heart to the leading of the Holy Spirit, make you self righteous and send you to hell.
You can strive with all your might till your arms drop off and your heart is torn in two
Only your faith will save you.
If you believe Him, In His son Jesus, your fruit will be the evidence-works.
To doubt is sin.
Walking in Faith takes courage, stepping out from the comfort zone of rules.
walk in love
edwinG

Let’s see, Jesus founded the Church, gave it the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, said whatsoever it binds on earth shall be bound in heaven, protected it for 2000 years so the gates of hell could not prevail against it and made it the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, and we should listen to the inerrant voice edwinG?
Is that about the size of it?

May God remove the scales from your eyes and let you see the Truth of His Church.

Pax vobiscum.

 

[LtTony]

Thanks, edwin.

I read your reply a couple times. Regarding “Peter vs Thomas”… I think I read you loud and clear. I also liked the last few paragraphs of your reply post: it sounds as though we have walked a similar path in many respects. I appreciate you sharing your observations. I certainly will contemplate them more.

It is unlikely, however, that there will be further contemplation on the middle portions of the reply. I am satisfied that we may just speak a different language in some regards. For example, I am confused by “you are mistaken that faith makes it (works) a simple walk in the park.” When I referred to our own crosses to bear, I was saying exactly the opposite: that works can be difficult, and necessarily so. Maybe you were addressing Huiou. No matter.

But again, thanks for your observations. In my struggles I’m starting to try to listen more intently; communicating isn’t just talking. Also, don’t sweat the little stuff.

God bless you,
Jim

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi Huiou Theou,
I still can not see how you can declare an act of faith as a petty work.
Matthew26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to the point of death. Stay here and watch with Me. 39 " He went a little further and fell on His face …”
Mark 14:34 almost a repetition
Luke 22:43 Then an angel appeared and strengthened Him
Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In love I caution you, Huiou Theou.

I believed that Jesus did not fully suffer as an ordinary man to death but that He was aided by the Holy Spirit who reduced the level of pain.
Now at this time I had been carrying a troublesome tooth for about 4 years. It was falling to pieces in my mouth and quite painful, but I refused to go to a dentist as the Holy Spirit had not led me there.

Hi edwin,
Let me start by saying that I had the opposite problem as you. My teeth as a child were good – too good. So good that none of them ever came out. All of my adult teeth grew up under them and were being crushed under my children’s teeth.
I too, had to go to a dentist, I too could not take local anesthetic.
For me, I nearly died the first time the anesthesiologist applied knock out drugs. I woke up sick nausious and in an emergency room and was told I would have to do it again without the anesthesia!

The second time they gave me nitrous oxide, but it didn’t help much. I was fully awake as 12 teeth were pulled from my mouth.
I nearly went insane as the smoke poured out of my mouth as the molars were cut in half by a drill.
I too know what pain is.

I am not being flippiant when I say that the act of faith is a petty work. I am emphasizing that what man does is nothing in comparison with what God does. Jesus was God – you mention that you believed that the holy spirit reduced his pain so that he could take it, but I think it is the other way. The strengthening applied by the angel allowed him to survive the increase in pain.

Walking across a floor is a petty work also, but for someone who has extreme arthritis even doing this small task can be impossible.

I do not reduce the suffering of God and man by saying that the act of faith is a petty work. For I am talking only about man. It is small to suffer one or twelve pains in the tooth – it is momentus to suffer all the sins of the whole world. Only A God-man can do that.

May our lord bless you Edwin.
Grow in love.

 

[edwinG]

Huiou Theou:

Hi edwin,
Let me start by saying that I had the opposite problem as you. My teeth as a child were good – too good. So good that none of them ever came out. All of my adult teeth grew up under them and were being crushed under my children’s teeth.
I too, had to go to a dentist, I too could not take local anesthetic.
For me, I nearly died the first time the anesthesiologist applied knock out drugs. I woke up sick nausious and in an emergency room and was told I would have to do it again without the anesthesia!

The second time they gave me nitrous oxide, but it didn’t help much. I was fully awake as 12 teeth were pulled from my mouth.
I nearly went insane as the smoke poured out of my mouth as the molars were cut in half by a drill.
I too know what pain is.

I am not being flippiant when I say that the act of faith is a petty work. I am emphasizing that what man does is nothing in comparison with what God does. Jesus was God – you mention that you believed that the holy spirit reduced his pain so that he could take it, but I think it is the other way. The strengthening applied by the angel allowed him to survive the increase in pain.

Walking across a floor is a petty work also, but for someone who has extreme arthritis even doing this small task can be impossible.

I do not reduce the suffering of God and man by saying that the act of faith is a petty work. For I am talking only about man. It is small to suffer one or twelve pains in the tooth – it is momentus to suffer all the sins of the whole world. Only A God-man can do that.

May our lord bless you Edwin.
Grow in love.

Huiou Theou,
Oh Huiou, How you have suffered. My heart goes out to you. I know people suffer more than this every second of every day but I am not talking to them at this moment. I have to confess, my life has always been blessed and my problems could fit into a thimble.
However God is our Almighty Father and nothing about Him is “petty”. And His wisdom for our salvation which is in Christ and obedience to His will, can not be lined up with “petty.”
I understand what you are saying, but it is His wisdom which decided our path. It is almighty not petty
With all of His almighty mercies available to you Huiou Theou, I tell you that within 24 hours Christ your teacher and mine will demonstrate to you that “petty” is not an appropriate word.
My love and my heart are with you,
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

reen12:

Hi, edwinG,

Tell me what “scattering the flock” is, OK?

I’ve been trying to negotiate Jesus praying:
“That they all may be one, Heavenly Father,
as You and I are one,” with the existence
of the various denominations.

The tentative conclusion I’m coming to…and
mind you, *very *tentative…is, are we pouring
energy into trying to achieve the wrong concept
of “unity.”

What “confession” can *all *Christians make?

Christ has died.
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
We are justified by the death of Jesus.
We are saved by Jesus [set aside *faith/works

for a moment*.*]
God is Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God.
The Lord’s Prayer…surely we can all say this in unity.

Yes, understanding does build strong bridges.

Maybe the Christian thing to do is to all meet
in the middle of the bridge to discuss ways that
we can work together to alleviate the suffering of
all human beings, agreeing to tell people the Good
News that the Messiah has come and proclaiming
Jesus is Lord.

What do you think, edwinG?

reen
Hi reen,
I was rushing to work and only partly answered your post.
Scattered. John 16:52 the desciples are scattered. I suppose this is to keep them safe away from the mood and danger of the moment, with crowds in a frenzy.
Acts 8:1 All the Christians were scattered, except for the apostles at Stephens death, because of the persecution of the church.
Acts 8:24 tells that the above went everywhere preaching the word. So they were scattered so the word would spread.
Leviticus 26:33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you. These were scattered because of disobedience.
Genesis 11:4 re Babel. Scattered because of the rapid growth and probable arrogrance.
So from this small selection I can see that there are many reasons for being scattered.
I have not studied or even read anything about church history so it is not possible for me to comment on why Christ scattered them, except this truth I always hold. God only operates because of Love and the answer to everything, everyreason is love. Knowing this helps me to understand so much about His ways. Knowing the real answer{love} often helps understand the path between the problem and the answer.
The spirit just dropped "scattered " into my lap last night after I posted the first response to that post.
I too was scattered. I had no intention of leaving Australia, having only just set up in practice as an acupuncturist, but within a few weeks of my bride to be arriving, my mother changed her mind and said she could not accept Tui. Well my mother is a formidible lady and I did not want to be in a war zone, so within 2 minutes, I responded and said I was going to live in Thailand. And like the little red hen, I did. After living in Thailand for less than 1 year, Christ called me. Now it would have been so difficult for me to make the changes which were necessary for me to make if I had still been living in Australia. In Australia I had a very good network of fleshy friends, drinking golfing smoking porn chatting and womanising etc etc. I was a single 54 year old man enjoying the “good life” How little I knew. Thailand was isolation for me and
gave me the chance to listen to the Holy Spirit. I spoke no Thai and I had no friends who spoke English. Even TV was in Thai. I was scattered to an ideal enviroment to grow in Christ.
Walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

TheGarg:

NO i can’t give you an example of a seperation of faith and works, that is my whole point, but the protestant world never promotes the works as “needed for salvation”, which is unscriptural.

If you can’t seperate the two then they are both necassary for salvation.

EX: If i say “Lord, Lord”, and then deny my brethern, what God commands me to do for them[charity, good works, witness], i will surely burn in Hell…do you disagree.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

IF pauls Faith were all that were necassary, then why would he work on them in fear and trembling…Faith is not a gaurantee for salvation, but what you “do”[action] with that faith…salvation is a **life long process…can you deny this?/**QUOTE]
Hi TheGarg,
Yes and No. Firstly No
I cant deny it because in those instances when one is baptised, sealed, at an early age, then even though they may not be called and live a life of disregard, this is similar to my circumstances, for the majority of their life, when called, by God’s grace and love and strength we obey. This may be from our teens, 20 , 40, 60, 70’s etc. I do think that the bonus of being called early means you live a life of abundance earlier and you also have less chronic illnesses which are the Amalekites and Jebusites.I am constantly being healed of whatever comes around but the chronic stuff I picked up before being called is hanging on.
Note the parable of the man bringing workers to the fields and paying them all the same irrespective of the time they started work. People are accepted into the kingdom at any stage.
A person may be called like the man on the cross. Like the above example I dont call it a life long process either.
In summary, I just trust in His strength. I really think that like Noah it is pretty hard to get away from God if He is searching for you. To me the question is, am I from God. Well, I know that answer is Yes for me but maybe for many it is not yes
All are welcome.
I dont think everyone answers the call.
I dont think everyone is seed and is searched for. Seed is always saved, God wont leave Himself behind. Think about the word redemption. We can only be redemed if we belong to Him.

walk in love
edwinG