Fallacies of sola scriptura

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You’ve exactly proven my point. You DO “try to discount it as being somehow symbolic.”

Without getting too far off-subject, let me make just a couple of points about your argument. If you’d like to discuss this further, then please start a thread and let me know where to look for it.
  1. What did Christ mean by “the flesh” in that statement? Well, it could either mean HIS flesh, or it could be a common Jewish idiom for the time, referring to worldly, as opposed to spiritual, things. This would make great sense considering Our Lord’s juxtaposing “the flesh” and “the spirit” in that same passage.
    If you believe the latter, then you are interpreting scripture with scripture, and following the beliefs of the whole Church. See John 1:13; John 3:6; John 8:15; Ro 7:5; Ro 8:3-13 (used 9 times!); 1Co 3:1,3; Ga 3:3; Ga 4:29; Ga 5:13, 16, 17, 19, 24; Ga 6:8,12; Php 3:3,4; Col 2:23; 1Pe 2:11; 1Jo 2:16.
    On the other hand, if you think that Christ was referring to HIS flesh as being to no avail, then you are renouncing His sacrifice and you are not a Christian.
  2. It astounds me how men, 1500 years removed and culturally distant, think they “know” what Christ “meant” more than those who were with Him when He said this, and who were His disciples until this “hard saying” was spoken. FidesSpesCarita has already quite adequately addressed Jesus’ response to their objections.
    Yes, Jesus was speaking to Jews in the synagogue in Capernaum, but they were HIS DISCIPLES (verses 60, 61, 66). Also, how men think they “know” what Christ “meant” more than the very disciples of the Apostles, who could have asked the Apostles straight-out if there was any chance that they misunderstood what Jesus meant in this regard. What hubris!
Either way, you’ve proven my point that you don’t “just read what they wrote” despite your claims above to do so.
You have a perfect right to believe that our Lord was teaching cannibalism. You cite 1500 years of history, but I would remind you that men once taught that the earth is flat [in ancient history]. There are “religions” older than Catholicism and we know they are wrong, too.
 
You have a perfect right to believe that our Lord was teaching cannibalism. You cite 1500 years of history, but I would remind you that men once taught that the earth is flat [in ancient history]. There are “religions” older than Catholicism and we know they are wrong, too.
QC,

Our Lord did not teach cannibalism! Can you show me any evidence that He did so other than you personal interpretation of a NT verse? . By the way. Here is “food” for thought to you.

Cannibalism satifies the physical hunger pain of the stomach. The Eucharist, Jesus’ body, the Manna from heaven, satisfies the hunger of the soul. This is what was taught by the Apostles, passed on to all Christians then, and is still beiing passed on today.
 
You have a perfect right to believe that our Lord was teaching cannibalism.
Yes, that’s the very same claim that the pagans made against Christianity in the very earliest years. Interesting, isn’t it, that they would have this same misconception that you have? Don’t you think it cold possibly be because the very earliest Christian Church practiced the Eucharist in the same way we Catholics do today? Even our pagan enemies accused us of holding the belief that we were consuming Jesus’ Body and Blood.
You cite 1500 years of history, but I would remind you that men once taught that the earth is flat [in ancient history].
That would only be relevant if the ancients had seen creation and made such a claim.
Are yoiu trying to purposefully misunderstand?
These people were WITH CHRIST (in John 6) when He made the claims he did. They asked Him for clarification, with the same accusations you’re making now about cannibalism. Christ did not relent in His assertions! He even said “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?”

Please don’t take this wrong, but your attitude was that which was shared by those disciples who fell away from Jesus in John 6:66. Wouldn’t you rather stand with the Apostles who stayed with Christ, despite this most difficult teaching?
 
Hi FSC,
Thank you for your kind words. May I suggest that you reread the post you responded to. I said clearly there is only one truth. Either sola scriptura is correct, or scripture and tradition is correct. Both cannot be true, at least as we currently define them.

I would also say that both of the following is true:

I stand for my beliefs; that the practice of sola scriptura holds accountable all teachers and teachings, that it does not exclude in any way Tradition, councils and creeds, or confessions.

That Catholics truly believe that Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium hold the full deposit of faith.

That I shout with you that there are no shades of gray with God. Sometimes, however, our sinful nature shades our ability to see His truth in harmony and unity. Pray for reconciliation.

Jon
Apologies. I hear this so often in my daily life that I tend to read too much into what many people say. Praying.
Yes, that’s the very same claim that the pagans made against Christianity in the very earliest years. Interesting, isn’t it, that they would have this same misconception that you have? Don’t you think it cold possibly be because the very earliest Christian Church practiced the Eucharist in the same way we Catholics do today? Even our pagan enemies accused us of holding the belief that we were consuming Jesus’ Body and Blood.

That would only be relevant if the ancients had seen creation and made such a claim.
Are yoiu trying to purposefully misunderstand?
These people were WITH CHRIST (in John 6) when He made the claims he did. They asked Him for clarification, with the same accusations you’re making now about cannibalism. Christ did not relent in His assertions! He even said “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?”

Please don’t take this wrong, but your attitude was that which was shared by those disciples who fell away from Jesus in John 6:66. Wouldn’t you rather stand with the Apostles who stayed with Christ, despite this most difficult teaching?
The funny thing is that, if you read St. Thomas Aquinas’ writings, the arguments brought today by many protestants are the exact same arguments that he refutes. Our rebuttals, mine at least, can often come verbatim from what that great doctor of the Church taught.

Funny, isnt it, how things repeat themselves in this often ridiculous world of ours?

FSC
 
So you mean with any Catholic Dogma you disagree on, it’s not necessary to go to your Bible to disprove it?
Hi Des,
Cart before the horse. The Bible must disprove before I can disagree. But in addition, since I am held to the Lutheran Confessions, I look to the Lutheran Church for doctrine, as I’m discouraged by the Lutheran Church to try to interpret on my own.
And where I am free to interpret as a Lutheran, such as on Mariology, I often agree with Catholic teaching.

I also look to the Lutheran Church to seek out dialogue to bring us together.

Jon
 
Sola Scripture is wrong because you need an authority! When I was discerning this I took a verse to another protestant and said I believe this and he said he believes something else and yet we say our interpretation is from the Holy Spirit. Well who is correct? How can God be for and against something at the same time?

This leads me to believe Sola Scripture is either right and the Holy Spirit suffers from multiple personality disorder, or Sola Scripture is wrong and there is an authority on the matters of Scripture and the interpretation of said Scripture.
 
Sola Scripture is wrong because you need an authority! When I was discerning this I took a verse to another protestant and said I believe this and he said he believes something else and yet we say our interpretation is from the Holy Spirit. Well who is correct? How can God be for and against something at the same time?

This leads me to believe Sola Scripture is either right and the Holy Spirit suffers from multiple personality disorder, or Sola Scripture is wrong and there is an authority on the matters of Scripture and the interpretation of said Scripture.
First, you are confusing sola scriptua with hermeneutics.

The same argument can be made against scripture and Tradition. The Orthodox, who have fully the same claim to the early undivided Church as Rome, have doctrine that varies from Rome. Which one is right?

But the issue of our disagreements has nothing to do with God being “for and against something at the same time.” It is human sin that causes us to disagree over this issues, not God Himself.

Jon
 
Tradition might not be clearly related to scripture but it may never conflict with sacred scripture.
 
Tradition might not be clearly related to scripture but it may never conflict with sacred scripture.
Rather, Tradition produced scripture - most easily seen in the case of Mark, Luke and Acts, since the authors were not eyewitnesses. They only wrote was was handed on to them orally, which is the very essence of Sacred Tradition. Bible Christians must compare everything on earth to (their own interpretation of) the bible, since they possess no other “authority”. The Catholic Church, in the course of arguing and developing the canon, compared scripture to Tradition to determine its truth. No Tradition was rejected, but plenty of scripture was. Tradition existed before scripture, both in the Old Testament and the New.
 
QC,

Our Lord did not teach cannibalism! Can you show me any evidence that He did so other than you personal interpretation of a NT verse? . By the way. Here is “food” for thought to you.

Cannibalism satifies the physical hunger pain of the stomach. The Eucharist, Jesus’ body, the Manna from heaven, satisfies the hunger of the soul. This is what was taught by the Apostles, passed on to all Christians then, and is still beiing passed on today.
Correct, He did not teach cannibalism. He was speaking metaphorically. Verse 63 proves that beyond a reasonable doubt. Which “religion” is right? None of them, Biblical Christianity is right - not a “religion” a relationship! Romans 8:14-17 speaks of this relationship. “Religion” is DO Biblical Christianity is DONE! Think about it!
 
First, you are confusing sola scriptua with hermeneutics.

The same argument can be made against scripture and Tradition. The Orthodox, who have fully the same claim to the early undivided Church as Rome, have doctrine that varies from Rome. Which one is right?

But the issue of our disagreements has nothing to do with God being “for and against something at the same time.” It is human sin that causes us to disagree over this issues, not God Himself.

Jon
His point was that Scripture is all protestants final authority yet they will conflict without end. The Orthodox have ‘their own’ final authoirty and we Catholics have ‘our own’ but we don’t divide on major Doctrinal issues the way you guys do. There is no way around it. Sola Scripture is a faulty premise because it cannot work.
 
His point was that Scripture is all protestants final authority yet they will conflict without end. The Orthodox have ‘their own’ final authoirty and we Catholics have ‘our own’ but we don’t divide on major Doctrinal issues the way you guys do. There is no way around it. Sola Scripture is a faulty premise because it cannot work.
As a matter of fact, the final authority that we Catholics have is the final authority for everybody, because that authority is God Himself.
 
First, you are confusing sola scriptua with hermeneutics.

The same argument can be made against scripture and Tradition. The Orthodox, who have fully the same claim to the early undivided Church as Rome, have doctrine that varies from Rome. Which one is right?

Jon
Please tell me what doctrine of the Orthodox is at variance with the Latin Church? I ask this because there is such a thing as the Byzantine Catholic Church, otherwise known as the Greek Catholic Church, which has the same foundation as the Greek Orthodox Church right on down to the same liturgy. They are not doctrinally at variance with the Latin Church.

There are only two possible areas for which you might base your comment. Both of them are false. One is the filioque and the other is the universal bishopric of the pope. The filioque was a red herring drummed up to justify a political rebellion. In fact there has recently been agreement on the filioque. So no variance there. On the universal bishopric of the Pope the Orthodox have done an about face compared to the early centuries. All of the big heresies of the early church originated in the East and the appeals for guidance and correct doctrine were made to Rome.

As for your question of which one is right the answer is simple The Latin Rite Catholic Church. The Orthodox are in schism which may be the answer why so much of the territory of the Eastern church has gone over to Islam. In fact the Haggia Sophia, the greatest christian church in the East, the church of the Holy Spirit, in Constantinople is now a Islamic mosque.
 
The bottom line is that for some reason (usually our own) that by virtue of being Catholic or Protestant or what ever, one is in control of the Truth. There is even the attitude that if your wrong I must be right. Or could it be your both wrong and Jesus is correct, even to the point that only Jesus is correct and without Him we are all incorrect. No matter the interpretation, sola scriptura or not.

Do you not yet know and understand that being born into the world the Lord has already set the world in your hearts.

The only people that care about being Catholic are Catholics, the only people that care about being protestant are Protestants the only people that care about being British are the British the only people that care about being business men are business men, the only people that care about being poor are the poor, the only people that care about being computer programers are computer programmers the only people that care about being with Jesus are with Jesus.

And hence as lone as the Truth is in the world He is there, for He is the Truth.

What does the Lord care about? isn’t it that He would be with His people? And since He was willing to die on the Cross for that, what would matter to Him? He came to find the Lost and restore and keep them unto Him. If the Catholics are more worried about being Catholic and keeping what they have more then what the Lord gave it to them for, then surly the Lord can find souls that will move on and continue that which the Lord came for. If the Protestants are more concerned with being Protestant and keeping what they have, then what it is given them for, surly the Lord can find souls that would move on and continue that which the Lord came for.

We are grafted in folks, and the Lord is not going to return to the Vatican, He shall return to Jerusalem. He is the Holy One of Israel, not of Rome, or some other place, religion, creed, denomination, nation, or people. It is His Kingdom that has no end the Kingdom of God that one should be concerned about, but you must be a member in order to care about being in the Kingdom of God.

There is a earlier posting on this thread #11 about building 57 chevies, the versions of 57 chevies are not important. Even though the chevies were different in appearance and performance. It is that they where still 57 chevies that any one could recognize. No one is the Master but the Master (Jesus) and He taught that it is sufficient to be like unto Him.

Therefore do others see His likeness in you and more importantly does He see His likeness in you considering He is the One who Knows and can recognize His own likeness.
 
Hi Des,
Cart before the horse. The Bible must disprove before I can disagree. But in addition, since I am held to the Lutheran Confessions, I look to the Lutheran Church for doctrine, as I’m discouraged by the Lutheran Church to try to interpret on my own.
And where I am free to interpret as a Lutheran, such as on Mariology, I often agree with Catholic teaching.

I also look to the Lutheran Church to seek out dialogue to bring us together.

Jon
I find this rather curious. So you, like us, look to your chruch for scriptural interpretation. Doesn’t that put you in the position of making Martin Luther your savior, since you are choosing his interpretations over those handed down through the generations by the Catholic Church?
 
QuickCat,
Interesting comment.
Which religion is right?
Who is ‘We’?
JB
No “religion” is right! Biblical Christianity is not a “religion” it is a relationship. “Religion” always requires YOU to do something to either win your salvation or to retain your salvation once won. “Religion” is DO while Biblical Christianity is DONE. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all! By believing in Him I become compete in Him. His righteousness is accounted to me. And I become a Child of God, a joint heir with the Lord Jesus Christ and as I mentioned, I am now complete in Him. Praise His wonderful name!
 
No “religion” is right! Biblical Christianity is not a “religion” it is a relationship. “Religion” always requires YOU to do something to either win your salvation or to retain your salvation once won. “Religion” is DO while Biblical Christianity is DONE. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all! By believing in Him I become compete in Him. His righteousness is accounted to me. And I become a Child of God, a joint heir with the Lord Jesus Christ and as I mentioned, I am now complete in Him. Praise His wonderful name!
wow
:banghead:
 
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