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to_seek
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How many people do you know ever get personal invitations to actually present questions to the Magesterium or even to The Bishop for that matter. In my part of the world, its hard to even get to talk serious issues with a Priest. So the body of the Church gets told what to believe, not question it. Did not Christ say to test everything by His words, which we can read in a Bible whether it be Catholic or not? Thanks for your replies, I like serious discussions and I am not trying to harm the Churches stand on anything.
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paul_c
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inkaneer
Guest
Yes I am well aware of that website and I can tell you that its portrayal of the western Church’s doctrines is in error. Orthodox admit that the pope has indeed a primacy and an authority over the whole church. This was stated in two early councils notably the Councils of Ephesus and the Council of Chalcedron.
Here is what those councils said:
Council of Ephesus:
Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessednesses is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).
“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’”
(ibid., session 3).
Council of Chalcedron
Bishop Paschasinus, guardian of the Apostolic See, stood in the midst [of the Council Fathers] and said, ‘We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], who is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed to sit in the [present] assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat, he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out" (Acts of the Council, session 1 [A.D. 451]).
“After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!’” (ibid., session 2).
Did you catch that last sentence where the Orthodox bishops shouted that “Peter has spoken thus through Leo!” The Orthodox accept both of these councils as valid and authoritative. As for purgatory, the reason the Orthodox don’t believe in purgatory is two fold. First purgatory is a Latin word and the Orhtodox loathe anything Latin. Second they insist as a lot of protestants do that we teach it is a “place”. Now having said that ask the Orthodox about “final theosis” then compare that to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Then come back here and tell what the difference is. As for Transsubstantiation does the Orthodox deny that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus? No they don’t. Their portrayal of Original Sin is in error also. We don’t believe that we are born with actual sin but rather the effects of Adam’s sin, to wit the absence of grace. This website is nothing but an attempt at self grandizement by trying to step on others necks to the point of misrepresenting Catholic doctrine.
One more thing and this I believe is the root of the Orthodox sentiment against the Western Church and the Pope. It is this sentence in the website you reffered to:
"…Rome’s claims are, in actual fact, based more on its position as the capital of the ancient Roman Empire, a position that shifted to Constantinople, the New Rome, later. "
A big bunch of jealousy always helps to fuel a schism. In other words what the Orthodox are saying is that since the head of the empire departed Rome and went to Constantinople so too the head of the church should do likewise. Then notice the last sentence:
“The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem comes from the Apostolic Age, as do the Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch. The Orthodox Church is the earliest Church of the Apostles.”
This is entirely false as the Partiarchs of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria are all based on Peter as he was the first bishop of Jerusalem, Antioch and Rome. Alexandria enters the picture as its first bishop was Mark the gospel writer who was ordained by Peter. As for Constantiople no Apostle ever set foot there. Even the Orthodox trace their apostolic succession to Andrew, Peter’s brother. It was a nondescript fishing village named Byzantium until the early fourth century when Constantine decided, because of its stategic position to make it his new capitol. That the church should, like a little puppy dog, follow the emperor in the move as the Orthodox would have liked is illogical. In fact it is far better that the Pope remained in Rome because if you study the history of the the eastern Roman Empire you will see time and time again where the emporer involved himself in the affairs of the Orthodox Church and where at times the bishop of Constantinople was was no more than a puppet of the emperor.
You have to watch the Orthodox. The greatest heresies of the church came not only from the Orthodox but from the Patriarchs of Constantinople like Nestorius and Marcedon. The so called, “first among equals”. The first eight councils, the ones the Orthodox accept, all dealt with heresies originating in the east.
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QuickCat
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[1] Biblical Christianity is the ONLY Christianity. [2] I can only speak from experience. I have had JWs, Mormons, Baptists, etc., knock on my door wanting to share the gospel [as they understand it] with me. NOT ONE TIME has a Roman Catholic EVER knocked on my door wanting to share the gospel with me. A quick story: A lady who worked at the hospital with me would come to my library every payday for a ride to the bank. I shared the gospel of the grace of God with her [just like Paul would] every payday. She told me that, “My church doesn’t teach that!” I had told her that the Lord Jesus Christ had paid the full penalty for her sins and that by believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4 she could be assured of being sealed [Eph. 1:13] and saved. She rejected the gospel. So I asked her one day how she expected to get to heaven? She told me, “Just before I die I will tell God that I am sorry for my sins.” About a week later she was mowing her lawn and dropped dead. Guess which church she was a member of? [3] If the LORD Jesus Christ is the summit and source of Catholic faith how come whenever I talk to Catholics about the gospel and going to heaven they NEVER mention the Lord Jesus Christ, but always mention the ten commandments? Strange!
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MGLechner
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QuickCat
Guest
The Sermon on the Mount is the law intensified. Do you not understand that when our Lord Jesus Christ was on earth he was ministering only to Israel, a people still under the law? The “Kingdom of Heaven” is that kingdom promised to Israel by the O.T. prophets. Why do you think our Lord spoke as He did in Matthew 19:28 [speaking to the 12 apostles to the circumcision]? Why do you think the 11 asked our Lord, “Will you, AT THIS TIME, RESTORE the KINGDOM to ISRAEL?” Acts 1:6. Why do you think the 11 made it their first order of business in Acts to bring their number back up to 12? Why do you think Peter is addressing ONLY Israel on the day of Pentecost and is offering the kingdom to Israel in Acts 3:19-21? The Body of Christ is not in view in the Sermon on the Mount. It was a “mystery” first revealed to the apostle to the Genitiles, Paul.
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paul_c
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Quickcat, you call yourself a Bible Christian, yet you deny most of the bible because it was directed to the Jews. This is absolutely absurd. Salvation comes through the Jews. They were the Holy People because the Messiah was to spring forth from them. However, Jesus said that he did not come to cancel the law but to fulfill it. And sure, the Catholic Faith started with the Jews, but the fact that the Gentiles would also share in salvation was made known first to Peter, not to Paul. Read Acts 10 and ACTS 15. Your entire thesis is built on sand.
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inkaneer
Guest
Nice story. The way I heard it was that it was a man who dropped dead while playing golf. Anyway the reason that you never see Catholics at your door is that we don’t believe in a hard sell approach. It was said of the early christians, “See how they love one another.” You see when you have the truth you don’t have to make a big spectacle of it. People will try all of the TV evangelists and all of the other denominations and still have a nagging longing for the truth. They will find that truth only in Catholicism. That is the difference between converts to Catholicism and Catholics who leave for other denominations. Those who convert to Catholicism are seeking and finding truth while those who leave Catholicism are running from it. We are getting the better of the trade. Ever speak to ex Catholic and hear them tear down the Church in very unchristian like terms then speak to a new convert from protestantism and listen to them praise their former denomoination for their contibution to their spiritual life but at the same time acknowledge that it was incomplete and that completeness was only found in the Catholic Church. Which is the christian response?
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inkaneer
Guest
I am still waiting for the poster named "To Seek to respond to thispost:
Quote:
Originally Posted by to seek
Not true, they are following what all christians do, they are reading The Word of God as inspired by The Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as infallibility. All Churches and men have failed over the Centuries, a lot of Popes went astray., and yes a lot of Protestant Churches too have deeply failed in their duties with believers. Second response, whoever said Popes were infallible when speaking ex-cathedra? I can understand being inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not infallibility because all of us are human and if a Pope who had gone bad so to speak were to speak quoting infallibility, would you still trust that word.? I wouldnt. So much is written about The Church, its almost like The Church is more important than anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by to seek
Not true, they are following what all christians do, they are reading The Word of God as inspired by The Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as infallibility. All Churches and men have failed over the Centuries, a lot of Popes went astray., and yes a lot of Protestant Churches too have deeply failed in their duties with believers. Second response, whoever said Popes were infallible when speaking ex-cathedra? I can understand being inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not infallibility because all of us are human and if a Pope who had gone bad so to speak were to speak quoting infallibility, would you still trust that word.? I wouldnt. So much is written about The Church, its almost like The Church is more important than anything else.
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paul_c
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What do you even mean by Biblical Christianity?
I agree that Catholics don’t tend to evangelize by going door to door. We have other ways to reach people. for instance, with this website and With EWTN. Anyone interested in the Catholic Faith can get that information and learn exactly what we believe. We have no idea, for instance what you believe, other than that you think that if you believe Jesus saves you, you go immediately to heaven when you die.
What is your point. Do you think she died because she rejected your version fo the Gospel, A version that is not supported by scripture.
It probably reflects the way you talk to Catholics. If you say, “all you need to do is to have faith”, the natural statement would be that Jesus said you need to follow the commandments. You in fact deny everything Jesus said and did, up to the point he died for us, saying that it was only for the Jews. Isn’t this true?
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QuickCat
Guest
Paul speaks of “my gospel” 3 times in his epistles. He speaks of the “gospel of the grace of God” in Acts 20:24. He says that he “received it of the Lord Jesus.” He didn’t receive from any man. When He met with the circumcision apostles he says that “they added NOTHING to me, but on the CONTRARY when they saw that the gospel OF the uncircumcision was committed to me as the gospel OF the circumcision was to Peter.” Gal. 2:7,8. The “church” that our Lord Jesus Christ mentions in Mt. 16:18 can not be the Body of Christ. Paul describes the Body of Christ in Ephesians 3 and he calls it a “mystery” NOT REVEALED in other ages. That church of Mt 16:18 is the kingdom church that will be set up when our Lord returns to this earth for His millennial reign with the 12 sitting on those 12 thrones of Mt. 19:28. Your problem is that you confuse the “kingdom” of the gospels with the church that was revealed to Paul. Paul is the only N.T. writer to name the church of this dispensation the Body of Christ. You are following the wrong apostle. Paul says that he is the “pattern” for those who follow after. He says that we are to follow him as he follows Christ. He says “be ye followers of me.”
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QuickCat
Guest
My story is true! Don’t know what you heard. You make a fatal error by intimating that you must join the church to be saved. It is the other way around. The moment one is saved by believing the gospel of by which you are saved [1 Cor 15:2] is that you are then baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ [1 Cor. 12:13]. And you are sealed by this same Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of your body [Eph. 1:13]. You will note that Paul writes that this happens upon “hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation.” Further, Paul writes that I am “complete in Him” [the Lord Jesus Christ] [Col. 2:10]. That is perfection that you can’t add to! I’ll take what the Lord Jesus Christ had Paul write for the Body of Christ.
po18guy
Well-known member
I know some bible Christian heroin addicts. So what?
Defend the indefensible: bible alone.
Your ball.
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paul_c
Guest
You are making a fatal error in assuming you can spearate yourself from the church and be saved. You pull out snippets of bible passages and paste them together to create the story line you want, but who are you fooling? Only yourself. Clearly not God. Look,
why do you ignore the FULL passages that demonstrate that you must do the will of God to gain eternal life.
Here’s what Jesus says in Matthew 19:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
How about St. Paul’s opinion from Romans 2:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
How about St. James, chapter 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
or ST. John (1John 5):
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.
2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,
4 for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith.
or St. peter in 1Peter1:
14 Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance
15 but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct,
16 for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.”
17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,
18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold
19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.
Note, that Jesus and all the other new testament writers say that you will be judged according to your WORKS
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macaronte
Guest
sonichuiscool wrote:
“Even though our leaders are not hierarchical, they still manage to maintain better standards…”
Soni, I guess you don’t get it.From the Gospel of Matthews 16:18-19: “And so I say to you, you are Peter, [which means “rock”] and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosened in heaven”.
Christ established ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC [universal] and APOSTOLIC Church.
If your church has no apostolic succesion it CAN’T be the Church founded by Christ.
Doesn’t that mean anything to you?
From the Gospel of John 17: 6; 9-11: “They belonged to you [the apostles], and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word… I pray for them [the apostles]. I DO NOT PRAY for the world but for the one you have given me, because they are yours, and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them. And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father keep them in your name that you have given me, so that THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE ARE”.
Again, Jesus set up HIS Church and HE chose Peter to lead the rest of HIS apostles.
HIS Church was meant to be ONE under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through HIS apostles.
Unfortunately, under protestantism this unity was totally shattered.!
Christ commandment to remain “ONE” was ignored.
Christ “standards” were ignored.!!
Are you getting it now?
Please understand:
Jesus desire was to have only ONE HOLY -VISIBLE & HIERARCHICAL- CATHOLIC [universal] & APOSTOLIC CHURCH. If your church doesn’t meet these requirements it’s not Jesus’ Church. It just doesn’t have Jesus power and authority.
I am sure that they are many Christ loving people in your church but unfortunately they are outside of the true Church that Christ founded. We would welcome all of you with open arms.
Pax et bonum
–macaronte
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macaronte
Guest
QuickCat wrote:
“NOT ONE TIME has a Roman Catholic EVER knocked on my door wanting to share the gospel with me.”
I am a Catholic and I happen to believe in the Gospel.If Catholics do not spread the Gospel how do you figure I received it?
Tell you what…
Jesus COMMISSIONED his apostles -and their successors through their imposition of hands- to spread the Good News. No one outside of the [Magisterium] of the Church, founded by Christ, has the authority to teach the inerrant Word of God.
Christ never said: “I send everyone who wishes to spread the Gospel”.
Jesus said [to his disciples]: " ‘Peace be with you’. As the Father has sent me, so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’. "
By means of this sending, the Eleven were made apostles.
Jesus entrusted them (and those they selected later) with the mission to spread the Good News. Your love for Jesus is commendable but you don’t happen to have the authority to spread the Good News inerrantly. With all due respect to you, I much rather share the Gospel from those that were entrusted with teaching it.
Pax et bonum
–macaronte
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paul_c
Guest
Wow, just wow. You have distorted the Bible beyond belief. In Acts 20;24 he simply says: he preaached the Gospel of God’s grace. Nothing more.
As for Galatian’s, Paul’s entire point is that you don’t need to be circumcised to be holy. He is not negating what was taught about the 10 commandments. Read Galatians 5: 6:
6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love
And look at his examples later in the chapter:
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.
26 Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
So clearly he believes that actions matter, its not all about faith.
Quickcat, Why do you say that the Church founded by Jesus in Matthew 16 is different than the Church that Paul calls the body of Christ? Do you not recognize that it was the Church led by St. Peter Paul was persecuting when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. And do you not realize that Ananias baptized Paul into the same church. And do you not realize that Barnabas went to find him and and brought him to work for the chruch in Antioch: (Acts 11): .
25 Then he (Barnabas) went to Tarsus to look for Saul,
26 and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
And do you not realize that it was the church that dispatched Paul on his missions: (Acts 13)
1.Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.
Quick cat, this is the most revealing statement you have made. You are following an Apostle rather than Christ. And Paul most certainly didn’t say he was the pattern for those who follow after him or that you should be his followers. This is what he says in 1corinthians1:
10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.
12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Isn’t it very clear that you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do by dividing the church or by Followign Paul instead of Christ. Paul would certainly condemn what you are saying just as readily as he condemned the Corinthians.
po18guy
Well-known member
paul c, what you just responded to is the greatest gift the aspiring Christian could ever have: absolute, undeniable proof that sola scriptura leads one astray. Our on-fire friend has quoted Paul ten times and Jesus, what? maybe once. Then he talks of Catholics not speaking of Jesus! He claims we are following “the wrong apostle” What did Paul himself say about this? You wisely pointed out 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 to him.
Ooops.
He sounds more Paulist than Christian.
Ooops.
He sounds more Paulist than Christian.
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QuickCat
Guest
Yes, I AM A BIBLE CHRISTIAN! I don’t deny any of the Bible. All Scripture is profitable…!
But, I do not mix law and grace like some folks do! You are blinded to the FACT that Israel has an EARTHLY hope and calling. Whereas the Body of Christ has a HEAVENLY hope and calling. Our Lord’s earthly ministry was to the Jews! He sent the 12 to the JEWS!. He and they proclaimed the “kingdom at hand!” You and your group confuse this earthly kingdom promised to Israel with the Body of Christ. Israel presently is set aside until the “fullness of the Gentiles be come in” [Romans 11:25]. Gentiles are now blessed through their [Israel’s] fall [Romans 11:11]. You and I are Gentiles, Our apostle is Paul [Romans 11:13] I have read/studied Acts 10 and 15. Cornelius is a picture of Gentiles coming into the Jewish kingdom. The prophets foretold that Israel would be a light to the Gentiles in the coming kingdom. The Jews will evangelize the world in that kingdom. But the Jew will be the “head and not the tail” in that kingdom. I realize that this is difficult to for you to understand. You will recall that Peter described Paul’s writing as "in which there are some things HARD to UNDERSTAND! 2 Peter 3:16. God Bless you my friend! “If our gospel be hidden it is hidden to them that are lost. In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Cor. 4:3,4
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