Family size as "evidence" of ABC use

[Being_Brave]

AMEN! I lost count of the number of times other people have presumed my husband and I must be practicing ABC because we have only one child. One of his coworkers asked hubby for advice on getting a vascetomy assuming hubby had one.

To flip it, it equally annoys me that people think they’re being “cute” when they say to a parents of multiples that they have this new invention called birth control. Just maybe the couple actually wanted a large family.

Another one that bugs me is when someone makes scarcastic remarks like, “Oh, another one already?” My sponsor has a 5 month old and is pregnant, and when they told me I was thrilled…but when I mentioned it to a mutual friend they said, “What are they thinking? So soon?”…kinda hurts my feelings. I’m just working on my first but I’d be ecstatic to have more!

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Au contraire, it is being rude, because you are making an assumption based on gross generalizations, not anything you know. Besides, the topic itself is something which is absolutely none of your business. Why would it be your concern? Because you’re not using ABC and want to feel better about yourself? Because you are using ABC and want to feel better about yourself? What possible excuse could you have?

The average single person in this country has sex 49 times a year. Do you look at the single people in your parish and think, “And I bet I know what *you’ve *been up to!” Because you think it but don’t say it, you think that’s not rude? Look around at the other people in your parish some time, and imagine all the unflattering things they could be “gambling” on concerning your moral life. I don’t think the though would make you feel loved, whether they were right or wrong, would it? So what excuse could we have for making these kinds of bets?

I don’t assume that the people at my parish are any different than anyone else simply because they are Catholic. I am not assuming that anyone at my parish is sinning. I’m only assuming they are ignorant of the Church’s teaching, because, well, everybody that I talk to IRL is ignorant. Why must I assume something that is contrary to my experience in order to not be rude?

Don’t get me wrong. I’ll assume anything you like if you think it is rude, but I don’t really see the point.

 

[rayne89]

However-- if a couple is married for years and years and years-- such as 20±- I mean, come on now. No one has to do any assuming much there! They’re either infertile or one of those couples that got married and dislike children. Usually, those couples adopt. Okay so maybe that’s another judgment but that is based on what I have witnessed personally.

Right, because adopting is as easy and going to the local animal shelter and getting a puppy. We will be married 20 years next month and have one daughter. I have a severe heart condition which is why we have used NFP since our daughter’s birth and why we chose not to adopt…but thanks for the assumptions.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

“Foolish” is not a term I would choose here as it isn’t very charitable but…whatever. I choose to follow the Imitation of Christ. It’s a classic that has led countless people to a deeper, more humble journey to Christ. I don’t consider it or its ideas malarchy. The problem I have with what you’re saying here is that we’re supposed to make a big, loud stink about people’s sex practices in the bedroom.

A–I don’t know what people are doing in their bedrooms
B–I’m sure I want to know
C–Don’t I need to focus on my own sex life or hangups therein to become holier and not spend so much time analyzing the exploits of others?
D–Do I need to do some soul-searching and think deeply that when I am ripping these people for using ABC or “misusing” NFP am I getting edification for myself and feeling better about myself, “more” Catholic and holier than thou in doing so?
E–How can I make snap judgments, as per the OP, about what people are doing in the bedroom based on how many kids they have?

You’re painting my post as saying we should all be libertines in which none of us ever calls each other on our sinful lifestyles. Not the case. If I have a brother who is going to shack up with a girl or who is thinking of trying a gay lifestyle, make no mistake, I’m going to say something to him. But at church, I am not going to go around hunting down the folks who have “only” two kids and probe them to see if they’re using ABC and then give them a speech about their sinful lifestyle and need for conversion…

So I get what you’re saying, don’t think we should we wimpy and passive, but I do think we need to focus MORE on ourselves in the call to holiness and only judge and admonish when we have all the facts and it is appropriate to do so.

God bless pablo

That’s where I got my mentality that I killed inside of me while trying to be a good protestant. I was convinced this was a whole bunch of malarchy during those years and have been trying to remember where I had learned this. My aunt’s and grandparents practiced this. But the problem is that they never grew and they were not successful at passing on the faith to their children because they failed to stand up for right and against wrong clearly for their children to learn. That’s why I try to teach my children right from wrong very clearly.

It’s true that we should not be rude to each other, but in the conversation of such topics it’s foolish to assume we should never speak about the topics that concern the community. We are a community and therefore everything we do has an impact on the greater community. Two income families is something I’ve been harping on for years. I always hated my wife’s use of ABC and find NFP disturbing in the way its used widely across the board against Church teaching - as birth control.

If we want to make a difference in the world we need to ignore the people that persuade us to abandon our faith as I’ve learned. Nearly all of my famliy, my wife’s family either used some form of birth control and eventually got sterylized. My own wife hurt my feelings deeply with her last protest rooted in fear because of a birth defect that cause us much pain afterwards. The healing of our last child was a miracle and I attribute it to my plea during a bought of anger towards Pope John Paul II. Our last child was born April 1, 2005, right before JPII passed. My wife was still in the hospital and on the last day started the procdure while I was away. I made a snide remark about it before she actually did it. I had hoped she’d put it off, but was obviously wrong. It tore me up inside, etc.

Life is very difficult today compared to 40 years ago. There has been a push for women to enter the work force because there have been no babies to fill the growing job market. In spite of this fact, industry still managed to push out jobs from this country to countries with much higher birth rates and are willing to work for less money. A lot of blame can be passed around on this, but in reality we ultimately should never have entered the rude remarks directed towards poor families who had large families.

The irony is that my wife is one of 8 and my mom is one of 10. My Catholic father is one of 4. All of their siblings limited the number of children they gave birth to except my Catholic family, that ranged from none, 3, 3 and 6. The none family is not up for me to judge because I don’t know her situation (I think infertile). I have 3 children ranging from 5 to 16. People always comment on the spacing. That’s because of ABC use partly, but mostly because of sustenance. I recall working hard through prayer to conceive and imagined many times throwing away the pills that ingrained anger in me.

I wanted a large family. But now I accept that the Lord, through the evil, kept us limited to what we could handle. I take it now that limited to 3 children is the pain I must carry because of my infidelity to the faith when I defected. I can’t live lamenting the non-birth of children that could have been, even though I do sometimes. My wife was Protestant and is flighty, stubborn and all that jazz. I should have listened to the Catholic Church teaching on this against the popularized deceitful “Professional Catholics” employed by the Catholic Church taught. But I didn’t really know or understand enough to make good decisions. I thought I did but realized many years later how ill equipped I was. Poor examples lead me away from the Church and I lost my faith, not in God, but in the Catholic Church. I believed that the hierarchy was lying to us. Long story. I discovered true Church teaching finally by researching and through converts discovered true Church teaching, not this cradle Catholic cafeteria style faith I learned growing up.

 

[spunjalebi]

Another one that bugs me is when someone makes scarcastic remarks like, “Oh, another one already?” My sponsor has a 5 month old and is pregnant, and when they told me I was thrilled…but when I mentioned it to a mutual friend they said, “What are they thinking? So soon?”…kinda hurts my feelings. I’m just working on my first but I’d be ecstatic to have more!

To be honest, I would probably think something similar, but not say it. Based on medical knowledge, it’s really not healthy for a woman’s body to not have enough time to recuperate between pregnancies if there’s less than 2 years in between. Also, many babies need breastmilk and a pregnancy that soon would cause feeding to end earlier than anticipated. Perhaps this mutual friend did not state their true concerns very well, but she probably meant it more along those lines.

I don’t assume that the people at my parish are any different than anyone else simply because they are Catholic. I am not assuming that anyone at my parish is sinning. I’m only assuming they are ignorant of the Church’s teaching, because, well, everybody that I talk to IRL is ignorant. .

That is very true. My fantasies of assuming that just because someone was Christian, or Catholic, they must automatically uphold to higher standards went out the window back in my early 20’s. This is going to sound bad, but nowadays when someone confides in me that they are abstaining until marriage, or are a virgin, I am actually genuinely surprised. Well, because hardly anyone does, and most of those people don’t even know why they really should. Same thing with contraception use.

Right, because adopting is as easy and going to the local animal shelter and getting a puppy. We will be married 20 years next month and have one daughter. I have a severe heart condition which is why we have used NFP since our daughter’s birth and why we chose not to adopt…but thanks for the assumptions.

I did not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, that’s why I mentioned in MY experience. In MY experience, my family has known couples who have been married for years, and don’t have children because they explicitly state that they don’t like children and don’t care for any. And these people are from a faith that stresses even further that children are a gift, and this faith also believes in reincarnation where your actions in one life determine the next life. You’d think that would factor into some of their decision-making, but unfortunately it doesn’t.

 

[MrsMW]

I have been married for over 8 years. I have lost two babies and had three daughters. The miscarriages were horrible. I almost lost my first daughter early on and I had her two months early because I almost died. The next two were born 5 weeks early and all were c-sections. After each baby my cycle went nuts and the pain every month was unbearable. After my last baby was 6 months I had a hysterectomy. WOW the judgments on that choice came down like I had had my tubes tied. I did get the judgments when I only had three, when my hormones dried my milk up at 6 weeks, and the surgery. All from 'Well meaning" Catholic women. I have never ever used ABC and I am passionate about the gospel of life. It is sad that the women who have not had any problems can’t for a moment think what if that were me.

Because of this when I talk to Catholic women who use ABC I always try to say why the Church is against it and not judge the situation. Compassion in talking to people is a better approach than declaring them in mortal sin.

 

[HouseArrest]

Pablo and Gurney, if we could all only perfectly walk that fine line and be charitable and educate at the same time we’d have it, wouldn’t we!

When I admonish my friends I feel I have overstepped, when I keep silent I feel I have failed.

I keep silent more than I state the truth, and like the quote, “Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words…”.

But then I wonder who in the world do I think I am? I don’t have it all figured out, either! And round and round I go.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t assume that the people at my parish are any different than anyone else simply because they are Catholic. I am not assuming that anyone at my parish is sinning. I’m only assuming they are ignorant of the Church’s teaching, because, well, everybody that I talk to IRL is ignorant. Why must I assume something that is contrary to my experience in order to not be rude?

Don’t get me wrong. I’ll assume anything you like if you think it is rude, but I don’t really see the point.

Do you think that’s different? “I don’t assume that you’re sinning. I think you could just be ignorant.” I’m sure anyone reading your mind would be incredibly relieved. (And, BTW, do not be so sure that your attitudes are a secret. Low estimations of others are far harder to hide than people believe.)

Again: Why is it your business to assume anything about them at all? That is what is rude: feeling it is your business to go around making assumptions about people who are not under your jurisdiction to correct. Did it occur to you that you have the option of regarding them as neither right nor wrong, but of being relieved that you are free to refrain from judging altogether? Did it occur to you that it is no tragedy at all that you don’t know, can’t know, and have no good reason to know?

This whole conversation brings to mind a poor woman who wrote Miss Manners with a problem along these lines. She and her husband were trying to have a baby, and she kept having people come up to her and ask her when they were going to have one…and I mean that they spoke as if they thought that since a baby wasn’t forthcoming, the couple must not be open to having one! Do you know what Miss Manners’ response was? Her opinion was that it would serve those busybodies right if one day a childless woman were to respond to their conjectures by bursting into tears and running from the room. I think your assumptions fall into just that category.

You may be guessing rightly in many case. You may be judging rightly in most. There is someone, though, whom you are judging unfairly. They want a child (or more children) very much, they have done every moral means to get to that end, they have it hard enough, and yet if they could read your mind, it would not have sympathy in it. It would have judgement in it, the judgement that “statistically speaking”, a couple with few children must be either ignorant or willfully immoral. They are neither, but that is what you feel free to assume about them.

What good do your judgments do, that you can excuse that lack of charity towards those you judge wrongly, those people that statistics will tell you do exist?

The great irony in all of this, of course, is that if one couple in your parish was popping out the babies right and left through *in vitro *fertilization, while another couple in your parish was childless because they were faithfully sticking only to the moral means available to welcome children, you would assume it was the couple with more children who were the more faithful ones!

It isn’t any of your business, and you don’t know. Do everyone a favor, recognize that, and quit thinking you know what you don’t about matters that are no affair of yours in the first place.

 

[EasterJoy]

I want to address another point, though: That about not speaking up for what is right.

These are things which we may not presume to judge about another person. When the topic is discussed, however, we have a duty to stand up for the truth. We don’t have to mince words in the arena of ideas.

That requires walking the line of being clear that anyone’s specific case is their specific case, BUT, that in the general case, this is what the Church teaches, these are the moral exceptions, and so on.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Beautifully-summed up!

Pablo and Gurney, if we could all only perfectly walk that fine line and be charitable and educate at the same time we’d have it, wouldn’t we!

When I admonish my friends I feel I have overstepped, when I keep silent I feel I have failed.

I keep silent more than I state the truth, and like the quote, “Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words…”.

But then I wonder who in the world do I think I am? I don’t have it all figured out, either! And round and round I go.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Speaking up for what is right is paramount. But going person by person at Mass and analyzing who has small families and speculating that they must be sinning and keeping our eyes on others too much detracts from our personal holiness mission and the heart of what I see Thomas a Kempis telling us, to assume the BEST about others and the worst about ourselves and try to stay on the straight and narrow. Walking the walk is important and admonishment is part of the game also but in things like small families, making snap judgments and evaluating a couple’s family size to determine their bedroom activities is not something I dig. Just my opinion…

Preaching the truth with love is crucial. I wish more priests would get up there and castigate abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, and so many other things. But that doesn’t mean now that we know the truth about homosexuality that I should start looking around and see a man at Mass and tell my wife, “look honey! That guy is 50 years old and alone! I never see him with kids, never see a wife. I think he’s gay. Shame on him. He’s breaking the Lord’s rules and will earn the fires of hell. We better go admonish him.” For starters, the guy might be a widower. His children might live out of town. Or his wife might not be Catholic so he comes by himself. There are a host of reasons he might be alone. Do I assume he’s gay? Nope.

We could do this stuff all day to all sorts of people. We can look at fat people and admonish their gluttony, two women who come to Mass together can conveniently be “lesbians,” families with only one kid are using ABC, skinny people who look unhealthy are drug users, on and on…

I want to address another point, though: That about not speaking up for what is right.

These are things which we may not presume to judge about another person. When the topic is discussed, however, we have a duty to stand up for the truth. We don’t have to mince words in the arena of ideas.

That requires walking the line of being clear that anyone’s specific case is their specific case, BUT, that in the general case, this is what the Church teaches, these are the moral exceptions, and so on.

 

[Rach620]

EasterJoy and gurneyhalleck,

Yes, yes, and YES! You both said quite eloquently what I think many on this thread were trying to get at.

Refraining from passing judgment–even if we’re not saying anything out loud–is the most charitable way of treating our fellow parishioners (and really anyone we meet).

 

[KostyaJMJ]

It isn’t any of your business, and you don’t know. Do everyone a favor, recognize that, and quit thinking you know what you don’t about matters that are no affair of yours in the first place.

Suite yourself. I’m easy.

I find that it is easier to ask and discuss these sorts of questions online where nobody can get their feelings hurt. I find your moralizing very refreshing. I wish I did live in a world where ladies would faint if you dared suggest they would ever contracept.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

To be honest, I would probably think something similar, but not say it. Based on medical knowledge, it’s really not healthy for a woman’s body to not have enough time to recuperate between pregnancies if there’s less than 2 years in between. Also, many babies need breastmilk and a pregnancy that soon would cause feeding to end earlier than anticipated. Perhaps this mutual friend did not state their true concerns very well, but she probably meant it more along those lines.

FWIW, I have researched the subject and have never encountered any “proof” that it is definitely unhealthy for any woman to have children less than 2 years apart, which could happen even if a couple waits a year to conceive again. Same with breastfeeding, its not for sure, some mothers continue nursing and go on to tandem nurse while others might “dry up,” assuming the child is breastfed at all.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Refraining from passing judgment–even if we’re not saying anything out loud–is the most charitable way of treating our fellow parishioners (and really anyone we meet).

Absolutely, I agree. There is a huge difference between recognizing there is a problem in our society with ABC/families not being open to life… that we need to do our part to help make our society better in that area… and assuming that a certain couple with few or no children (or many children for that matter) are contracepting or being selfish and avoiding children without serious/just reasons. God calls different families to different family sizes, anything from 0 to double digits, and we have to support each other and help each other with fulfilling God’s will (which, for example, some couples that deal with the cross of infertility may actually need more support in this area than some couples that are blessed with children).

 

[MrsMW]

FWIW, I have researched the subject and have never encountered any “proof” that it is definitely unhealthy for any woman to have children less than 2 years apart, which could happen even if a couple waits a year to conceive again. Same with breastfeeding, its not for sure, some mothers continue nursing and go on to tandem nurse while others might “dry up,” assuming the child is breastfed at all.

You know women get really tired. If she has baby after baby even IF (I don’t agree with you on health issues) it wasn’t harming her she will go years without a full nights sleep. Even with a good husband the mom is going to be weary. Yeah you can offer it up and take one for the kingdom and all but if some one has that concern they may not be anti-baby but concerned for the mother’s overall health.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And I got sick of watching my wife going through post pardem depression and sleepless nights and bloodshot eyes, too. And finally when she almost died on the operating table from her C-section in which she wouldn’t take a breath OR wake up for the longest time afterward (doctors were worried!!), that was enough right there…not an NFP fan myself

You know women get really tired. If she has baby after baby even IF (I don’t agree with you on health issues) it wasn’t harming her she will go years without a full nights sleep. Even with a good husband the mom is going to be weary. Yeah you can offer it up and take one for the kingdom and all but if some one has that concern they may not be anti-baby but concerned for the mother’s overall health.

 

[EasterJoy]

Suite yourself. I’m easy.

I find that it is easier to ask and discuss these sorts of questions online where nobody can get their feelings hurt. I find your moralizing very refreshing. I wish I did live in a world where ladies would faint if you dared suggest they would ever contracept.

You do live in a world containing women who would be deeply and rightly hurt if you blithely atttributed their personal failure to produce the number of children you think ideal as evidence of ignorance or immorality. They read what you post here. Post accordingly.

People can and do can get their feelings hurt by what we post here, if we are careless about how we post. We have no way of knowing who reads what we write, or how they take our meaning. Comparing the number of people who read to those who reply, we also rarely have a chance to clarify our comments when those comments are taken wrong.

In our posts, we witness not just to the correctness of the Catholic faith, but also to her life of virtue. We need to witness not only to chastity, but to all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit: charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, and self-control.

 

[CountrySinger]

Pablo and Gurney, if we could all only perfectly walk that fine line and be charitable and educate at the same time we’d have it, wouldn’t we!

When I admonish my friends I feel I have overstepped, when I keep silent I feel I have failed.

I keep silent more than I state the truth, and like the quote, “Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words…”.

But then I wonder who in the world do I think I am? I don’t have it all figured out, either! And round and round I go.

I never talk about morality in front of my friends. It’s not my place, and they would just brush me off anyway (one of them is very Anti-Catholic, and says I’m the only Catholic she doesn’t want to punch in the face). I don’t want to be thought of as one of those judgemental Catholics. Live and let live. Stay out of my business, and I’ll stay out of yours.

 

[PatriceA]

Suite yourself. I’m easy.

I find that it is easier to ask and discuss these sorts of questions online where nobody can get their feelings hurt. I find your moralizing very refreshing. I wish I did live in a world where ladies would faint if you dared suggest they would ever contracept.

Another erroneous assumption. Just because this forum may be anonymous, people’s feelings are still very real. Not only that, but someone that may be discerning whether to convert to the Catholic faith or not, may read some of the things you post that you don’t think hurt anybody (but do) and form a horrible impressions about Catholics. Your words can either hinder or encourage other people in their faith, no matter if you think it doesn’t really matter or not because its all online.