Fast of Ramadan and it's meaning

[GUNNER7070]

Yes. That’s good.

However, hypocrites can also be saved. If they repent and do reparation.

I believe in that too.

And I am so sorry, I did not mean to sound judgmental, all I wanted is to give the Muslim’s point of view on the matter

Surah Nissa 4:145
The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper will you find for them.

Surah Nissa 4:146
Except for those who repent, mend (their life), hold fast to Allah, and purify their religion as in Allah’s sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the Believers. And soon will Allah grant to the Believers a reward of immense value.

God’s ways are not man’s. We as man,can’t judge whether one being a hypocrite can’t enter Heaven. Only God knows the heart of another person.

I believe in the above as well.

Surah Al-Qasas 28:68
Your Lord creates and chooses as He pleases: no choice has they (in the matter): Glory to Allah And far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)

Surah Al-Qasas 28:70
And He is Allah: there is no god but He. To Him be praise, at the first and at the last: for Him is the Command, and to Him you shall (all) be brought back.

For a Muslim this is the general rule, you will never find a Muslim say he or she will enter Heaven because of their deeds.

Sahih Muslim 2818 a
A’isha, the wife of Allah’s Apostle (Peace Be Upon Him), reported that Allah’s Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him) used to say:
Observe moderation (in doing deeds), and if you fail to observe it perfectly, try to do as much as you can do (to live up to this ideal of moderation) and be happy for none would be able to get into Paradise because of his deeds alone. They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: Allah’s Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that Allah wraps me in His Mercy, and bear this in mind that the deed loved most by Allah is one which is done constantly even though it is small.

We ourselves can be hypocrites at times, but must seek forgiveness.

It is truly a great burden, something makes everyone question their selves and actions, it is not easy.

So Jesus being God and Man, spoke long before

To Him Be The Glory. For ever and ever. Amen.
MJ

For Muslims, Jesus ( Peace Be Upon Him ) is Prophet and Messenger of Allah.

Surah Maryam 19:30-33

He said: I am indeed a servant of Allah: He has given me Revelation and made me a prophet (30) And He has made me blessed where ever I be, and has enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live (31) (He) has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable (32) So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again) (33).

 

[MartinJordan]

I believe in that too.

And I am so sorry, I did not mean to sound judgmental, all I wanted is to give the Muslim’s point of view on the matter

Surah Nissa 4:145
The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper will you find for them.

Surah Nissa 4:146
Except for those who repent, mend (their life), hold fast to Allah, and purify their religion as in Allah’s sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the Believers. And soon will Allah grant to the Believers a reward of immense value.

I’m glad you are not being judgemental. Still how will another person know like you that a person has not repented and remained a hypocrite? And Who is this “helper”?

What religion is "their " religion? Who is this that are numbered as believers? What is the meaning of purified? Is it the same as what Jesus said “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect?” Do you believe Jesus said this also?

I believe in the above as well.

Surah Al-Qasas 28:68
Your Lord creates and chooses as He pleases: no choice has they (in the matter): Glory to Allah And far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)

Surah Al-Qasas 28:70
And He is Allah: there is no god but He. To Him be praise, at the first and at the last: for Him is the Command, and to Him you shall (all) be brought back.

For a Muslim this is the general rule, you will never find a Muslim say he or she will enter Heaven because of their deeds.

Sahih Muslim 2818 a
A’isha, the wife of Allah’s Apostle (Peace Be Upon Him), reported that Allah’s Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him) used to say:
Observe moderation (in doing deeds), and if you fail to observe it perfectly, try to do as much as you can do (to live up to this ideal of moderation) and be happy for none would be able to get into Paradise because of his deeds alone. They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: Allah’s Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that Allah wraps me in His Mercy, and bear this in mind that the deed loved most by Allah is one which is done constantly even though it is small.

It is truly a great burden, something makes everyone question their selves and actions, it is not easy.

That’s a lot of details there. And yes God has no partner. Catholics don’t have such doctrine. God is One. As Jesus said I and the Father are one. So I’m not sure who the Quran Is talking about when it says " they ascribe partners to Him "? Who is they?

For Muslims, Jesus ( Peace Be Upon Him ) is Prophet and Messenger of Allah.

Surah Maryam 19:30-33

He said: I am indeed a servant of Allah: He has given me Revelation and made me a prophet (30) And He has made me blessed where ever I be, and has enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live (31) (He) has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable (32) So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again) (33).

This brings me to ask again to Hasantas and now yourself, do you accept that Jesus showed how to pray and about forgiving one another just before he talked about fasting? Hasantas believes in the latter so I assume you too. As I asked what did Jesus say about fasting and Hasantas responded using Our Bible to subscribe Jesus as indeed saying it. Plus Jesus is talking with Authority.

So do you accept Jesus’ judgment about fasting that the scribes show indeed sad faces to show they are fasting as Hasantas confirmed?

Awaiting your response with anticipation.

MJ

 

[Loving_disciple]

Catholics are suppose to fast from meat every Friday. Also we have lent which is meant to show the time Jesus spent in the desert and his fast with no food and water. Christians give up certain types of food as well as spiritual fasting and fasting from material pleasures beyond food.

 

[JimmyDFG]

This is Hidden Shirk in Islam:
when someone is showing one’s deeds to others or speaking about them in order to gain respect or some other worldly benefit.

Surah az-Zumar 39:65
But it has already been revealed to you, - as it was to those before you, - If you were to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be your work (in life), and you will surely be in the ranks of those who lose (all spiritual good)

Shirk in islam is the “sin” of practicing idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God i.e. allah. Literally, it means ascribing or the establishment of “partners” placed beside allah. Correct?

 

[Cheiron]

That’s just one fatwa though. Last I heard opinions differed from one cleric to the next. A Scandinavian Muslim colleague of mine once told me that she was instructed to fast according to daylight hours in the nearest locale that actually had a sunset (not specifically the closest Muslim nation). Another American Muslim colleague of mine told me that summer fasting hours in the arctic were fixed at 20 hours. Yet another told me that you should abide by the fasting hours of your home country (in the case of Muslim immigrants to the arctic). I was wondering if the Muslim world has come to a stronger consensus.

These are all brilliant solutions to a problem that should never have existed in the first place. It leaves us with the absurd conclusion that God doesn’t know that the sun never sets in northern Scandinavia in the summer; a fact that is known to every high-school student today. From a non-muslim perspective, the answer to this theological problem is pretty obvious: Ramadan is the most damning evidence that the Quran - which contains this injunction to fast from dawn till dusk - was made up by someone who could not look further than the Arab Peninsula and arrogantly claimed to act in God’s name. To me, Ramadan is probably the most important reason why I cannot believe in Islam.

I know you’re not a muslim, Brandon Cal, but your quote offered a perfect opportunity to point this out.

 

[GUNNER7070]

Part 1.

I apologize again, I should have made the parts in the Verses clear, as stated, I believe it is always God’s way.

I can not take the Verses apart and I do not mean any offense
Please accept my apology.

God’s ways are not man’s. We as man,can’t judge whether one being a hypocrite can’t enter Heaven. Only God knows the heart of another person.

MJ

Surah Al-Qasas 28:68
Your Lord creates and chooses as He pleases: no choice has they (in the matter): Glory to Allah And far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)

Surah Al-Qasas 28:70
And He is Allah: there is no god but He. To Him be praise, at the first and at the last: for Him is the Command, and to Him you shall (all) be brought back.

For a Muslim this is the general rule, you will never find a Muslim say he or she will enter Heaven because of their deeds.

Sahih Muslim 2818 a

A’isha, the wife of Allah’s Apostle (Peace Be Upon Him), reported that Allah’s Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him) used to say:
Observe moderation (in doing deeds), and if you fail to observe it perfectly, try to do as much as you can do (to live up to this ideal of moderation) and be happy for none would be able to get into Paradise because of his deeds alone. They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: Allah’s Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that Allah wraps me in His Mercy, and bear this in mind that the deed loved most by Allah is one which is done constantly even though it is small.

I’m glad you are not being judgemental. Still how will another person know like you that a person has not repented and remained a hypocrite? And Who is this “helper”?
MJ

Thank you Martin, The Mighty Is The Judge, not I.

Surah Al-Muddaththir 74:38
Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

Surah Al-Qasas 28:70
And He is Allah: there is no god but He. To Him be praise, at the first and at the last: for Him is the Command, and to Him you shall (all) be brought back.

And Who is this “helper”?
MJ

*Tafsir al-Jalalayn:
Anyone to guard them from the Fire.

 

[GUNNER7070]

Part 2.

Hypocrisy has two categories in Islam as everything else needs to be detailed.

What religion is "their " religion? Who is this that are numbered as believers? What is the meaning of purified?
MJ

Starting from a previous post
Your statement was:

However, hypocrites can also be saved. If they repent and do reparation.
MJ

We both agree on the above.

Surah Nissa 4:145-146
The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper will you find for them(145)Except for those who repent, mend (their life), hold fast to Allah, and purify their religion as in Allah’s sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the Believers. And soon will Allah grant to the Believers a reward of immense value(146).

*Tafsir al-Jalalayn:
Save those who repent, of hypocrisy, and make amends, in their deeds, and hold fast to, put their trust [in], God and make their religion purely God’s, free from any pretence; those are with the believers, in terms of what they shall be given; and God will certainly give the believers a great wage, in the Hereafter, and that is Paradise.

Is it the same as what Jesus said “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect?” Do you believe Jesus said this also?
MJ

Two things here make it impossible for me to answer this part.

1- We Humans are the Creation of Allah, The Most Exalted, His Attributes are not the same or equal to Human attributes.
Surah Al-Qasas 42:11
(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle; by this means does He multiply you:** there is nothing whatever like unto Him **, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

2- I can not reject nor accept that Jesus ( Peace Be Upon Him ) said that, This is also a rule for a Muslim to verify when it comes to say or write what The Prophets (Peace Be Upon Them ) said ,I am not a Scholar nor have I the knowledge to comment on this particular part.

That’s a lot of details there. And yes God has no partner. Catholics don’t have such doctrine. God is One. As Jesus said I and the Father are one. So I’m not sure who the Quran Is talking about when it says " they ascribe partners to Him "? Who is they?
MJ

Forgive me, I had to give some details to avoid misundertanding but I failed.
As I wrote, I did not mean to offend anyone, we ( Muslims ) have to complete the Verses whether we wrote or recited the Ayat “Verses” of Qur’an.

So I’m not sure who the Quran Is talking about when it says " they ascribe partners to Him "? Who is they?
MJ

The short answer is:
*Tafsir al-Jalalayn
And your Lord creates whatever He will and chooses, whatever He will. They, the idolaters, do not have the choice, the right to choose anything. Glory be to God and exalted be He above what they associate, [above] their idolatry.

This brings me to ask again to Hasantas and now yourself, do you accept that Jesus showed how to pray and about forgiving one another just before he talked about fasting? Hasantas believes in the latter so I assume you too. As I asked what did Jesus say about fasting and Hasantas responded using Our Bible to subscribe Jesus as indeed saying it. Plus Jesus is talking with Authority.

So do you accept Jesus’ judgment about fasting that the scribes show indeed sad faces to show they are fasting as Hasantas confirmed?

Awaiting your response with anticipation.

MJ

Once I read the prayer I found it lovely and it reminded of a an aya " verse " in the Qur’an

Surah Ali Imran 3:8
Our Lord!" (they say), "Let not our hearts deviate now after You have guided us, but grant us mercy from Your Own Presence; for You are the Grantor of bounties without measure.

Every Muslim will agree that forgiving one another is ( having mercy ), So it is obvious no Muslim will deny that teaching,

“Those who are merciful will be shown mercy by the Most Merciful. Be merciful to those on the earth and the One in the heavens will have mercy upon you.”

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhi 1924

That is the same principle, is it not?

**But I did not understand why did you ask about the fasting part?
It was the first time I ever read what was written about fasting in the Bible but could you please elaborate what is it exactly you want the affirmation for?

Jesus ( Peace Be Upon Him ) spoke with Authority.

Surah Maryam 19:30-33

He said: I am indeed a servant of Allah: He has given me Revelation and made me a prophet (30) And He has made me blessed where ever I be, and has enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live (31) (He) has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable (32) So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again) (33).

 

[GUNNER7070]

Shirk in islam is the “sin” of practicing idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God i.e. allah. Literally, it means ascribing or the establishment of “partners” placed beside allah. Correct?

The third type of shirk in Islam is ( the hidden shirk ).

This is where the intentions come to play when doing good deeds or acts of worship.

Were they done sincerely and purely for the sake of Allah ( Praise be only to Him ) alone?

Surah Al-Bayyinah 98:5

And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish regular Prayer; and to practise regular Charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

Surah Al-Layl 92:19-20

And have in their minds no favor from anyone for which a reward is expected in return(19) But only the desire to seek for the Countenance of their Lord Most High(20).

 

[hasantas]

This brings me to ask again to Hasantas and now yourself, do you accept that Jesus showed how to pray and about forgiving one another just before he talked about fasting? Hasantas believes in the latter so I assume you too. As I asked what did Jesus say about fasting and Hasantas responded using Our Bible to subscribe Jesus as indeed saying it. Plus Jesus is talking with Authority.

So do you accept Jesus’ judgment about fasting that the scribes show indeed sad faces to show they are fasting as Hasantas confirmed?

Awaiting your response with anticipation.

MJ

Prophets were used to talk with authority which God had given them. Jesus could preach the most faithful way of worships. So we should not interpret verses to ascribe Jesus(any prophet) a divine authority by Himself. Jesus had taken all authority from Father(God) and it is very clear in Bible.

 

[MartinJordan]

Prophets were used to talk with authority which God had given them. Jesus could preach the most faithful way of worships. So we should not interpret verses to ascribe Jesus(any prophet) a divine authority by Himself. Jesus had taken all authority from Father(God) and it is very clear in Bible.

You mean like “I and the Father are one”?

Or “No one goes to the Father except by me”.

Please give me the name of your Bible.

You’ve also didn’t address my question about the fasting when Jesus showed how to pray just before that.

Not convincing Hasantas as you’ve avoided my question. You need to face it.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jesus had taken all authority from Father(God) and it is very clear in Bible.

I agree with MartainJordan on this one.
hasantas, I’ll also like to add John 14:7
“If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him.”

 

[GUNNER7070]

You mean like “I and the Father are one”?

Or “No one goes to the Father except by me”.

MJ

To a Muslim, this is how it sounds like:

Surah An-Nisa 4:80
He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah: but if any turn away, We have not sent you to watch over their (evil deeds).

This is why it is important to know the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger.
I will not go into details this time unless I was asked to.

You’ve also didn’t address my question about the fasting when Jesus showed how to pray just before that.

MJ

Can you please elaborate more?

 

[JimmyDFG]

To a Muslim, this is how it sounds like:

Surah An-Nisa 4:80
He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah: but if any turn away, We have not sent you to watch over their (evil deeds).

This is why it is important to know the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger.
I will not go into details this time unless I was asked to.

Can you please elaborate more?

Gunner, What’s your views on Matthew 16:15-19?

15 He (Jesus) said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[MartinJordan]

To a Muslim, this is how it sounds like:

Surah An-Nisa 4:80
He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah: but if any turn away, We have not sent you to watch over their (evil deeds).

This is why it is important to know the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger.
I will not go into details this time unless I was asked to.

If you just pick one or two sentences and not dwell further to whom Jesus is talking to and what situation, one might say “that’s what is sounds like”. My main focus here is to take a Muslims (name removed by moderator)ut like from Hasantas and question him about everything Jesus says. He’s picking one verse which are Holy Words coming from the mouth of Jesus and does NOT seem to think about the other words of Jesus before that.

So please make the effort unlike Hasantas to look at Jesus words in their entirety.

Can you please elaborate more?

See above and my previous posts.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

You mean like “I and the Father are one”?

Or “No one goes to the Father except by me”.

Please give me the name of your Bible.

You’ve also didn’t address my question about the fasting when Jesus showed how to pray just before that.

Not convincing Hasantas as you’ve avoided my question. You need to face it.

MJ

“I and the Father are one”

Jesus had come in name of Father(with authority of Father) so Jesus and Father are one. That means who would obey Jesus but obey God. Who do not obey Jesus so he/she disobey God.

“No one goes to the Father except by me”.

6- Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14

Yes prophets were the unique way to God. So nobody can go God except through them.

36 ¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28

43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; Luke 22

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17

There are more verses which preach Father is above all.

Muslims pray in that way: our Rab(Lord), our Allah(God), our Hâlık(Creator) etc… And I think our Father means our God.

Indeed I do not know what you ask exactly!

 

[hasantas]

If you just pick one or two sentences and not dwell further to whom Jesus is talking to and what situation, one might say “that’s what is sounds like”. My main focus here is to take a Muslims (name removed by moderator)ut like from Hasantas and question him about everything Jesus says. He’s picking one verse which are Holy Words coming from the mouth of Jesus and does NOT seem to think about the other words of Jesus before that.

So please make the effort unlike Hasantas to look at Jesus words in their entirety.

See above and my previous posts.

Peace be with you.

MJ

So why do you pick some metaphorical verses but ignore all more obvious verses which contradict with your strained interpretations?

 

[hasantas]

I agree with MartainJordan on this one.
hasantas, I’ll also like to add John 14:7
“If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him.”

If Father and Son were same so Jesus would not say “me” and “him”. Son and Father are distinct.

To see Son mean seeing Father! That can be interpret in that way: All people always have doubts about faith. We will not be convinced(all our doubts will not end) unless we see God. That is valid for eveyone. Even Moses wanted from God to show Himself. And Jesus was sent by God. There were many evidences of that just think miracles which Jesus had performed. So if someone accept that Jesus was sent by God so he/she accept presence of God and that is pivotal point of faith. Otherwise there are many other verses which state clearly that Father is above all things include Son!

 

[hasantas]

hasantas,

8:1
They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the bounties [of war]. Say, "The [decision concerning] bounties is for Allah and the Messenger.
" So fear Allah and amend that which is between you and obey Allah and His Messenger, if you should be believers.

8:13
That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger

• indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

8:14
“That [is yours], so taste it.” And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.

8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah .
And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

9:30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah .”
That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them].
May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

9:31
They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary.
And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him.
Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

9:32
They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light,
although the disbelievers dislike it.

9:33
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion,
although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

“No compulsion in religion” you say?
“Allah and His Messenger” = Muhammad

So do you not claim that Jesus and Father are one? But Jesus was just a human( at least all Christians accept % 100 human nature!)

Prophets were sent with authority of God. But that means nothing for unbelievers! There are always unbelievers so there is no compulsion in religion. Religion do not force/harm anyone if they do not insult. But if you accept God so you must obey God and messengers. Because God order/reveal through messengers.

 

[GUNNER7070]

Gunner, What’s your views on Matthew 16:15-19?

15 He (Jesus) said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

I am sorry, but I cannot give an opinion on something that I do not have knowledge about.

This requires studying.
Thank you Jimmy.

 

[GUNNER7070]

If you just pick one or two sentences and not dwell further to whom Jesus is talking to and what situation, one might say “that’s what is sounds like”. My main focus here is to take a Muslims (name removed by moderator)ut like from Hasantas and question him about everything Jesus says. He’s picking one verse which are Holy Words coming from the mouth of Jesus and does NOT seem to think about the other words of Jesus before that.

So please make the effort unlike Hasantas to look at Jesus words in their entirety.

See above and my previous posts.

Peace be with you.

MJ

Thank you Martin for the explanation, I really needed that.
I will look at them InshAllah.