Father James Martin / Homosexual Unions

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RandomAlias said:
He describing gay couples whose long-term relationships of 15 or 20 years have demonstrated great love. Nothing wrong with that. I think he was suggesting that we, including the Church, need to recognize that gay relationships can be loving, and if we recognize that there is love, we should examine why we condemn the relationship rather than accepting it. This is a good question. I don’t know the answer, but I have to thoughtfully consider any question that begins with the premise that love is good.
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I hope all Catholics can agree that friendships can be a great good. Gay relationships are – first and foremost – friendships. Thus we should not be surprised that they can be quite admirable and wonderful in various ways. To deny that would be to deny that two friends can love each other, despite not being perfect.

The question is not, “Do gay couples love each other?” Anyone who asks that question hasn’t met a gay couple. The question is: “Is sex a manifestation of that love?” If it is, then Christianity is flawed, and we should leave the faith. If it is not, then gay couples should remain friends and cease having sex. Whether they continue to live together is a pastoral concern, and I will stay 100% out of it.
 
SuperLuigi said:
Not if it’s the version [of love] corrupted by Satan which is precisely what gay relationships are.
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All human loves are corrupted by sin in some way. Most heterosexual couples in this country (including Catholics) engage some of the same sexual practices that gay people do. Love corrupted by sin. Let’s not talk as if this was unique to gay romances.
 
Prodigal_Son said:
The question is: “Is sex a manifestation of that love?” If it is, then Christianity is flawed, and we should leave the faith.
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Why in heaven’s name would we leave Jesus because we struggle with an issue of human sexuality? I should think in struggles we would run to Him more, not run away. It would not be “Christianity” that had a flaw, it would be man’'s understanding and implementation of it.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Why in heaven’s name would we leave Jesus because we struggle with an issue of human sexuality? I should think in struggles we would run to Him more, not run away. It would not be “Christianity” that had a flaw, it would be man’'s understanding and implementation of it.
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Huh? I don’t think you understand what I meant. I said that Christianity teaches that sex CANNOT be a manifestation of genuine love between two men or two women. If that teaching is false, then Christianity is false.

But I don’t think the claim IS false.
 
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I guess we differ in that I don’t feel “Christianity,” defined as the ten commandments and Our Lord’s two commandments about love, definitively settles this issue. If you do, fine, but we have two different understandings of what Christianity means in this context.

I realize I am in the minority here in thinking that, and I’m not here to convince anybody, nor will I read or respond to any posts citing a bunch of arguments or calling me a heretic.
 
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fullmetalcatholic said:
this is an ambassador of the Catholic faith held in highest esteem by Cardinal Cupich and Pope Francis so he has authority so we must listen to him.
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fullmetalcatholic said:
“father” Martin says that same sex unions should be reverenced by faithful Catholics. Isn’t this out of line with Catholic teaching? Such unions and acts incur the wrath of God, No?
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It seems as if you have done a 180 turn from your OP
 
Cthompson said:
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fullmetalcatholic:
this is an ambassador of the Catholic faith held in highest esteem by Cardinal Cupich and Pope Francis so he has authority so we must listen to him.
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fullmetalcatholic said:
“father” Martin says that same sex unions should be reverenced by faithful Catholics. Isn’t this out of line with Catholic teaching? Such unions and acts incur the wrath of God, No?
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It seems as if you have done a 180 turn from your OP
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It is bait and switch, a type of dishonesty. I thought it a trap from the start.
 
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pnewton said:
He doesn’t. That is just slander that is used by a group of people here. It is a simply “inconceivable”.
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What is “inconceivable”?
And…
Do you believe Fr. Martin has never preached or associated with heresy before?
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I guess we differ in that I don’t feel “Christianity,” defined as the ten commandments and Our Lord’s two commandments about love, definitively settles this issue. If you do, fine, but we have two different understandings of what Christianity means in this context.
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As a man who does experience same-sex attraction, I look at the history of both Judaism and Christianity, and I see an unbroken opposition to same-sex sexuality. This was, indeed, one of the most unique and shocking things about the Church in Roman times. If we say that this was all a misunderstanding, and that Jesus always thought matrimony could be between two men, then we make God look like He is utterly incapable of communicating His message to His Church.
 
Mariage blanc (from the French, literally “white marriage”) is a marriage that is without consummation.[1] The persons may have married for a variety of reasons, for example, a marriage of convenience is usually entered into in order to aid or rescue one of the spouses from persecution or harm; or for economic, social or visa advantage.
The expression may derive from the absence of hymenal blood on the couple’s (white) wedding-night bed-sheets;[2] however, the French word blanc also means blank in the sense of empty, e.g. cartouche à blanc = a blank cartridge, one lacking a bullet.
Source: Mariage blanc - Wikipedia
 
Yes - I know. I had to bite my cheek writing some of it, but it’s sad but true that the Church has been eclipsed and the solution is only clear teaching from a Holy Pope.
 
Look at it another way:

Assume that the Church wants to evangelize to LGBT persons and their families, friends, and allies. The Church wants to make sure it is doing all that it can, without violating the fundamental truth and holiness of Catholic Christianity. The Church considers that maybe there are ways to make a path for LGBT that have been overlooked.

So they find the most LGBT-sympathetic priest they can find, one who is faith-filled, courageous, outspoken, and driven by love for God and neighbor. They ask him “Give us your best shot. Tell us if there is something we missed. Suggest new approaches and perspectives, whether they are big leaps or small increments. We may not accept everything you propose, but we are listening.”

If this is what the Church hierarchy is doing, I’m for it. I think it’s inspired wisdom to examine the established approach, though the process is uncomfortable, looking for new ways to bring all kinds of people closer to the Church so that they may grow in faith and virtue.
 
I can tell you how we as parents did it (same way that MY parents did it).

We have a home where we do not condemn people.

For example, we leave a family gathering where we find out the 15 year old cousin is expecting a baby out of wedlock.

Option A: smile and then when you get in the car, say "I knew that would happen, she dresses like a showgirl, the sent her to that dirty public school, they let her listen to that rap music. (lean over to the back seat) We love you and that is why we expect the best of you. No good Catholic boy would ever get a girl pregnant! I do not blame the boyfriends parents for kicking him out, not one bit! "

Option B: A smile and when we get in the car, say: “It is going to be difficult for all of them. I wonder if her boyfriend needs a place to stay for awhile? Maybe we can see if he wants to crash in the guestroom until things calm down. (lean over to the back seat) Do you want to go with me to Michael’s tomorrow to pick out some yarn for a baby afghan? Remind me to have some masses said for all of them.”

Your kids learn how they will be treated by how you treat others.
 
Martin said, “I have a hard time imagining how even the most traditionalist, homophobic, closed-minded Catholic cannot look at my friend* and say, ‘That is a loving act, and that is a form of love that I don’t understand but I have to reverence.’”
  • this friend is a practicing homosexual in a same-sec relationship.
Just google the quote if you’re looking for the source. There have been an abundance of Internet articles referencing this quote.

Compare this to CCC 2357
 
What exact action was Martin referring to, when he said that? I assure you he was not referring to sodomy, but to some act of generosity, kindness, or concern on the part of the homosexual couple.
 
the pope has met with his gay friends in the Vatican. Michael Sam was engaged to his ex-husband on top of the Vatican after Cardinal Dolan pronounced “Bravo” at his coming out. The softening of the language condemning the sin of homosexuality by priests and prelates…the gay masses, the “coming out” at the applause of Catholics in the pews…and this overwhelmingly acceptance of homosexuality as the new norm by Thomas Rosica and others in the Vatican despite the fact that homosexual men created a moral and financial crisis in the Church. It’s all there - Document it? Good Bye Good Men is one book; another one is the Rite of Sodomy by Randy Engel. You can’t just paint folks as alt-right with a broad brush. This is real. You are living it.
 
Prodigal_Son said:
What exact action was Martin referring to, when he said that? I assure you he was not referring to sodomy, but to some act of generosity, kindness, or concern on the part of the homosexual couple.
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“I do not understand how a person could say the following things: This is not love, this is a lesser love, they should be apart, they should have never met, they should never be together." - Fr. Martin

This is contrary to CCC 2358 that says “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” are “objectively disordered”.

The problem Fr. Martin gets himself into is that he does not clarify between fraternal Christian love (which we should all demonstrate) and homosexual lustful tendencies. If he would clear up what he is saying, all of our discussions about him could be more prosperous.
 
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