Father James Martin / Homosexual Unions

[Prodigal_Son]

“I do not understand how a person could say the following things: This is not love, this is a lesser love, they should be apart, they should have never met, they should never be together." - Fr. Martin

I don’t like Father Martin’s emphasis. But…

The only statement above that I question is “this is a lesser love”. And I’m not even sure I question that, since the Church does not teach that marriage is superior to friendship. But I wish Martin would emphasize that this is not CONJUGAL love, and that the parties are not complementary in a way that would ground marriage or raising children.

 

[Cthompson]

I wish Martin would emphasize that this is not CONJUGAL love, and that the parties are not complementary in a way that would ground marriage or raising children.

This is what I’m trying to get at. He must clarify his statements because they can be taken both ways. With all these problems he’s getting into, one must wonder where his ideas do lie.

 

[fullmetalcatholic]

The Pope too must clarify his statements, but that is the ill-formed modernistic Jesuit path. Ambiguity and Dialogue have not brought one person to the faith.

 

[Cthompson]

The Pope too must clarify his statements, but that is the ill-formed modernistic Jesuit path.

That’s just the modern-day Jesuit mindset
That order is in serious need of help. Whether is Pope Francis, Fr. Sosa, Fr. Martin, etc etc.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, pray for us!

 

[exnihilo]

He describing gay couples whose long-term relationships of 15 or 20 years have demonstrated great love. Nothing wrong with that. I think he was suggesting that we, including the Church, need to recognize that gay relationships can be loving, and if we recognize that there is love, we should examine why we condemn the relationship rather than accepting it. This is a good question. I don’t know the answer, but I have to thoughtfully consider any question that begins with the premise that love is good.

A gay relationship can have elements of love but the relationship itself is fundamentally disordered. We don’t really need to worry about recognizing love in that relationship. We don’t do that for any other intrinsically disordered relationship.

A gay relationship necessarily involves immoral sex. If it was just a friendship then that would be one thing. Two men or two women can have a friendship that is loving. They could even be roommates and care for each other. But as soon as you characterize the relationship as gay then the fundamental disorder of the relationship makes it unworthy of consideration as being good.

 

[exnihilo]

I guess we differ in that I don’t feel “Christianity,” defined as the ten commandments and Our Lord’s two commandments about love, definitively settles this issue. If you do, fine, but we have two different understandings of what Christianity means in this context.

Maybe Christianity stripped bare doesn’t settle the issue. But Christianity as revealed clearly does. This is how the arguments for accepting this go. They strip a bunch of teachings from the Faith and then try to argue for acceptance based on what remains.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

A gay relationship necessarily involves immoral sex.

Just to be clear, this is not always the case. Many gay couples no longer have sex, and some gay couples never had sex in the first place. The world is stranger than we could possibly imagine.

 

[exnihilo]

The only statement above that I question is “this is a lesser love”. And I’m not even sure I question that, since the Church does not teach that marriage is superior to friendship.

The Church teaches that sacramental marriage gives grace for the ends of marriage. Also, the Church teaches that we are the bride of Christ. I’d say on both counts a superiority is taught.

 

[exnihilo]

Just to be clear, this is not always the case. Many gay couples no longer have sex, and some gay couples never had sex in the first place. The world is stranger than we could possibly imagine.

I agree with what you are saying. But I would say if the relationship is characterized as ‘gay’ then that alone is problematic. If it isn’t sexual why not just characterize it as a friendship? A well made point I’ve heard before is that most loving relationships aren’t sexual. In fact sex is least characteristic of loving relationships.

 

[fullmetalcatholic]

That argument is a slippery slope

 

[Prodigal_Son]

That argument is a slippery slope

Huh? It’s not an argument. Nor am I saying that they should call themselves a “gay couple”. I’m just stating facts.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Martin said, “I have a hard time imagining how even the most traditionalist, homophobic, closed-minded Catholic cannot look at my friend* and say, ‘That is a loving act, and that is a form of love that I don’t understand but I have to reverence.’”

Reverence for the loving act.

 

[SuperLuigi]

All human loves are corrupted by sin in some way. Most heterosexual couples in this country (including Catholics) engage some of the same sexual practices that gay people do. Love corrupted by sin. Let’s not talk as if this was unique to gay romances.

This is a red herring. We are talking about gay relationships, not straight ones. @Tis_Bearself @RandomAlias

I also find it amusing that those who defend so-called gay “marriage” need to do so on the basis of failed straight relationships.

 

[fullmetalcatholic]

what is the loving act of homosexual unions - tell me so I may educate my children on the joy of homosexuality? Come On!

 

[TheLittleLady]

You might find this difficult to believe, so, be sure you are sitting down.

People who are gay can actually love other people, they can do kind and even noble things. They don’t have sex every moment of their lives.

 

[catholic1seeks]

OH BROTHER.
SIGH

Fr. Martin needs to repent? Oh please. What a self-righteous thing for your priest to say. All Fr. Martin is trying to do is to make a home for LGBT Catholics who have often felt on the margins. If you’re not LGBT yourself or know of any, please go find one and ask how they feel about being in the church.

 

[catholic1seeks]

“The LGBT side”

Excuse you? Who are you to talk for every single LGBT person?

 

[2towers]

Aptly enough, I think the church tends to use the phrase, “living as brothers,” which implies a stronger bond/ love than just simply friends.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

what is the loving act of homosexual unions - tell me so I may educate my children on the joy of homosexuality? Come On!

Making your friend coffee in the morning, so that it’s ready when he gets up. Or 10,000 examples.

But I agree with you that masturbating with him, or doing something that passes for “sex”, is not such a loving act.

 

[on_the_hill]

No one can “make America great again” when we are this divided and when so many in our country have no respect for anything good or decent. I’ve read woe to him who calls evil good and good evil. Is that not where we are as a country ?

I’m not arguing with your sentiments. However, do you see how your framework cannot unify the country?

What you’re saying is that the country will be unified when everyone agrees with you. However, I believe that the country can be unified only when everyone agrees with me.