"father"

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You are quoting out of context, and so you don’t understand. If you refuse to put it in context you will never know the truth.

I think that truth doesn’t matter to you. You need to believe that it means something it doesn’t because you are against anything Catholic.

If that makes you happy, believe what you choose. You are happy being wrong, so why bother to debate the point.

You have proven to us that you don’t know the subject, and that you refuse to learn. You have made up your mind. You are wrong, and you are happy to be wrong. You don’t want to know the truth.

So why are you still here, doing nothing but repeating the same error in ever more preposterous ways?
**kalt, you have again given a long lecture assuming somethings about me. You have not given any reply. Please see my querry again which was in response to your saying that Priests are spiritual fathers. See again.

You are saying that the priests are the spiritual fathers. I asked you about The Great God being the spiritual father of Jesus.

You have not replied properly. Try again please**.

See my querry and see your reply above. Is there any explanation from you? None at all. It seems to me that you had no reply. It is now proved to me that Jesus is also a spiritual son of the Great God like for all other people who are calling Him “Father”.

Jesus called God his father in some sense. Jesus told every one to call Him father in the same sense.

You are trying to avoid the issue. You are not coming to the point.

To me there is no harm if Jesus described his God as father. He addressed Him as Father. He also told every one to do the same, to call Him “Father.” So That God is the Father of all, not only the Father of Jesus. That is the teaching of Jesus. You cannot amend it. You cannot amend, mould or manipulate it. Welcome.
 
From BILL PICK:
kalt,On occasion you will find people like Planten who will criticize Catholics because they call their priest “father” citing Matthew 23:9: “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.” (KJV). If one takes this passage literally and out of the context in which it is used in the Bible, this might seem to be a fair criticism. But you must remember Planten is not a Christian
**BILL, Please understand that I have no objection to what Jesus said.

Matthew 23:9: “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.” (KJV). **

This was a very good advice. I fully believe in what Jesus said and what he meant. It is not dfficult to understand what Jesus meant. There is no problem of context. Love.
 
Yes brother it is great awareness but is not wisdom you offer as men do still think they need authority, but in the fullness of the spirit it is not needed for all will submit to the One and only authority.

Many Jewish leaders were not doing so well in priesthood because the were seeing themselves as above their brothers that is why we needed teaching. That is that we are called to have a relationship with the Father, Jesus (pbwh) has interceded so we can.
They had people see them as authority, even prostitutes, tax collectors and sinners could have entered before them.
The authority given to and by Jesus (pbwh) was to be servants to be leaders.

The problem with teaching people to call priests father is in no man knows the heart of another.

No parishioner really knows the priest is in truth authority over them, if they are not then calling them father is a false witness.

Now if you are a follower of paul teaches the law is abolished by Jesus (pbwh) this would be ok but if you are aspiring to be a follower of Jesus (pbwh) who says he was sent to fulfil the law you will have issues.

The law says we are not to bear false witness.

Walk the safest way, the way in which can be no error rather than one that is rarely of error.

if you are a free man and willingly out of love want to follow the law it could be better to follow the instruction of Jesus (pbwh) and be brothers and not put an unworthy man above or before you this is in my mind part of submitting to Gods authority given through Jesus (pbwh). The way to the Father.
Jesus
  • established true authority in the Church He established on Peter and the apostles… It’s not pretend authority. It’s not authority that was usurped. When Jesus said"You Peter are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church. Whatever you bind. is bound in heaven…[Mt 16:15…] it is really the Father who laid out this plan. (whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." Jn 12:50)
  • After the resurrection, in front of all the apostles, said to Peter, feed and rule my Church [Jn 21:15…]
  • further qualifies His authority that He gives to His Church, when He said, “he who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” [Lk 10:16]
  • won’t repeat Himself. This is the plan, There will be no other plan.
People who arre seperated from Our Lord’s Church and choose to ramain so, and want to work against His Church till the second coming, have already been predicted in advance. All it proves is that Satan is successful sifting those souls who won’t obey the authority of Jesus and the authority of the ONLY Church He established.

"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. [Jn 14:23]
sj:
May God bless us all as we seek His truth in or sharing
Amen 👍

And happy Easter
 
**BILL, Please understand that I have no objection to what Jesus said.

Matthew 23:9: “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.” (KJV). **

This was a very good advice. I fully believe in what Jesus said and what he meant. It is not dfficult to understand what Jesus meant. There is no problem of context. Love.
You continually come up with an argument that makes no sense whatsoever.

You answer, “I have no objection to what Jesus said.”

Well, who ever said you did? :rolleyes:

You don’t understand what Jesus said.
 
**kalt, you have again given a long lecture assuming somethings about me. You have not given any reply. Please see my querry again which was in response to your saying that Priests are spiritual fathers. See again.

You are saying that the priests are the spiritual fathers. I asked you about The Great God being the spiritual father of Jesus.

You have not replied properly. Try again please**.

See my querry and see your reply above. Is there any explanation from you? None at all. It seems to me that you had no reply. It is now proved to me that Jesus is also a spiritual son of the Great God like for all other people who are calling Him “Father”.

Jesus called God his father in some sense. Jesus told every one to call Him father in the same sense.

You are trying to avoid the issue. You are not coming to the point.

To me there is no harm if Jesus described his God as father. He addressed Him as Father. He also told every one to do the same, to call Him “Father.” So That God is the Father of all, not only the Father of Jesus. That is the teaching of Jesus. You cannot amend it. You cannot amend, mould or manipulate it. Welcome.
You are plucking arguments from thin air.

None of us here have a problem with Jesus and Father. It is YOU who is having such difficulty standing an easy passage.

I will assume that it is your language barrier. Too many times a simple response is twisted and completely changed or misunderstood by you.

I’m sorry that I can’t continue to debate this with you. You have been given several accurate and complete answers, and your responses to them have been as if you don’t speak the language.

In the interest of not dragging this useless exchange out any more, I will say again tha the passage does not mean that you can’t call your father or a priest father.

Please study the language a little more and then come back to discuss this.

For now, though, as far as my part in it, the discussion is closed.
 
You have no need to address any man as your own father, because we have one father who is in heaven.
When Jesus said

"If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? "Lk 11:11

“Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven” (Matt. 23:9).

He wasn’t contradicting Himself and no doubt was making a distinction that no one was confused about until modern day critics voiced confusion over it.

Yet ask any of these critics do they celebrate father’s day, or call their own fathers, father, and see what they say
40.png
geo:
As ordinary courtesy you do not address a superior by his functional title.
Ever notice how people refer to the
  • President of the USA, as Mr Prresident?
  • V President as Mr V Pres?
  • secretary of State as Madam or Mr Secretary of State?
  • etc etc etc
 
You continually come up with an argument that makes no sense whatsoever.

You answer, “I have no objection to what Jesus said.”

Well, who ever said you did? :rolleyes:

You don’t understand what Jesus said./QUOTEPlanten .all so does not understand the Christian Bible
 
Ever notice how people refer to the
  • President of the USA, as Mr Prresident?
  • V President as Mr V Pres?
  • secretary of State as Madam or Mr Secretary of State?
  • etc etc etc
So, you think that a priest should be addressed as Mr. Father???
 
Ready for a big surprise everyone? Most Protestants called their clergy “Father”! They stopped doing it about a hundred years ago because the Irish priests that were coming over did it also. The title spread in the Catholic Church and the Protestants dropped it because they did not want to be identified as Catholic!
So, nobody had a problem calling their clergy “Father” until the Catholics started doing it!!

Such opposition, however, is ironic in the context of church history. For American Protestants regularly called their clergy “Father” 200 and 300 years ago, and some continued to do so a century ago. And during the same years, Protestants addressed venerated women in their churches as “Mother.”

religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1916

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_050906.asp

Closely related was the custom of calling missionary pioneers “Father.” In the 19th century, Presbyterian, Baptist, Congregationalist, German Reformed, Methodist and Universalist missionaries were given the title throughout the New South and West. And American Lutherans used “Father” for their pioneer pastors, their first missionary to India, and their patriarch, Father Henry Melchior Muhlenberg.

But in the mid-19th century, Protestants began to drop the titles. By the 1920s, only Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and some Episcopal clergy and nuns were being addressed as ‘‘Father’’ or “Mother.” The evidence suggests three reasons for this change in nomenclature.

Most significantly, the decline of “Father” in Protestantism coincides with the rise of Irish immigration to the United States in the 1840s. Before that time, Roman Catholic priests in America were usually addressed as “Mister,” for most were secular (nonmonastic) clergy with roots in Europe or England, where Roman Catholic practice restricted “Father” to priests of monastic orders. Secular priests were called “Mister,” “Monsieur,” “Don” or other vernacular equivalents.

Irish Roman Catholics, however, addressed all priests – whether secular or monastic – as “Father.” And by the end of the Victorian period, the Irish had influenced English-speaking Roman Catholicism to call every priest “Father.”
 
i think this is the problem,im not saying ive been an angel ,sometimes. i seen a study where religon is down.im not saying anyone is right or wrong.but come on,we’re losing people.and you know why,its not, that their not looking.its because their confused,its because their soo many diferent religons. it should be soo easy.but a lot of people are making it hard.we need to start finding an answer, to make things right.i think we need to start calling things for what they are in all religons and make one thats unified.i think if theirs issues that we know thats wrong, we need to aknowledge them, fix them, and go own for the better.we need to get all the religons together , and finally hammer all these issues out.so we can be how god wanted us to be.before we lose a whole lot of people. i know some people are crazy, but look at the numbers.google it. do you really want to risk, all of humanity, just to say your right.
 
Ready for a big surprise everyone? Most Protestants called their clergy “Father”! They stopped doing it about a hundred years ago because the Irish priests that were coming over did it also. The title spread in the Catholic Church and the Protestants dropped it because they did not want to be identified as Catholic!
So, nobody had a problem calling their clergy “Father” until the Catholics started doing it!!

Such opposition, however, is ironic in the context of church history. For American Protestants regularly called their clergy “Father” 200 and 300 years ago, and some continued to do so a century ago. And during the same years, Protestants addressed venerated women in their churches as “Mother.”

religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1916

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_050906.asp

Closely related was the custom of calling missionary pioneers “Father.” In the 19th century, Presbyterian, Baptist, Congregationalist, German Reformed, Methodist and Universalist missionaries were given the title throughout the New South and West. And American Lutherans used “Father” for their pioneer pastors, their first missionary to India, and their patriarch, Father Henry Melchior Muhlenberg.

But in the mid-19th century, Protestants began to drop the titles. By the 1920s, only Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and some Episcopal clergy and nuns were being addressed as ‘‘Father’’ or “Mother.” The evidence suggests three reasons for this change in nomenclature.

Most significantly, the decline of “Father” in Protestantism coincides with the rise of Irish immigration to the United States in the 1840s. Before that time, Roman Catholic priests in America were usually addressed as “Mister,” for most were secular (nonmonastic) clergy with roots in Europe or England, where Roman Catholic practice restricted “Father” to priests of monastic orders. Secular priests were called “Mister,” “Monsieur,” “Don” or other vernacular equivalents.

Irish Roman Catholics, however, addressed all priests – whether secular or monastic – as “Father.” And by the end of the Victorian period, the Irish had influenced English-speaking Roman Catholicism to call every priest “Father.”
That’s really interesting. So they aren’t opposed to what Catholics do because it’s anti-biblical. They’re opposed to what Catholics do simply because they’re Catholic.

Prejudice plain and simple. Tsk Tsk. 🙂
 
You seem to have a problem with legitimate earthly authority in general.
No but i have a problem with discerning who has spiritual authority on earth.
We don’t know the president’s heart any more than we know a priest’s heart. We don’t know a police officers heart, or our teachers’ hearts.
This is not spiritual, these are of this realm, give to Ceaser what is his and to My Father what is His and has been legitimised by the narrated word of Jesus (pbwh).

When it comes to a priest being legitimised to be called father, i dont know of this, i know Peter was ordained and that ordination is to be given to believers.
You come here claiming that no one on earth has authority, yet you expect us to accept your “authority” on the subject of “father”
Have i commanded you? i did not intend to, i can only share with you what is see, I hold no authority here the pure spirit in Jesus (pbwh) has authority here.

I respect for you it is priests.

Go back to when i was 13, we had a priest that did un speakable, i was told to call him Father, in your way he had authority over me.

How do i know he is my spiritual authority, (me respecting he is yours) he was ordained in the succession of Peter by men but i am not sure by God. I am not saying he is not my spiritual authority but given his fruits i am not confident to say he is.

I dont doubt he is my brother Jesus (pbwh) said he is.

To me better i walk in the way of Jesus (pbwh) taking him as my authority than walk in the way of that priest taking him as authority.
Walk the safest way, the way in which can be no error rather than one that is rarely of error
I dont hold authority as you suggest and you can see him as your authority you have free will so submit to him and be pleased.
You’re talking in circles and are making less sense the more posts you make
I dont understand how you see my reason as circular to me to say calling a priest father because the fathers say so is circular when Jesus (pbwh) never told you to but told you he is your brother.

If He so wills may God bless and guide you as you submit to your fathers.
 
Jesus
  • established true authority in the Church He established on Peter and the apostles… It’s not pretend authority. It’s not authority that was usurped. When Jesus said"You Peter are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church. Whatever you bind. is bound in heaven…[Mt 16:15…] it is really the Father who laid out this plan. (whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." Jn 12:50)
  • After the resurrection, in front of all the apostles, said to Peter, feed and rule my Church [Jn 21:15…]
  • further qualifies His authority that He gives to His Church, when He said, “he who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” [Lk 10:16]
  • won’t repeat Himself. This is the plan, There will be no other plan.
People who arre seperated from Our Lord’s Church and choose to ramain so, and want to work against His Church till the second coming, have already been predicted in advance. All it proves is that Satan is successful sifting those souls who won’t obey the authority of Jesus and the authority of the ONLY Church He established.

"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. [Jn 14:23]

Amen 👍

And happy Easter
God bless you
what you ofer is indeed of the guidance we have been given.

In my previous post i dont think the priest i spoke of really fed the Church well, note i say think.

I dont know but think his action separates him from the quotation you have made.

My guess is although the other fathers hid and covered his action that they dont see him as in the way of Jesus (pbwh) and would no longer want to acknowledge him as authority.

If you allow me some latitude and suppose he is not my authority, though unintentional my calling him father is bearing false witness.

If i stand in public and say people he is Gods authority in the Church i think it would drive people away from the church rather than draw them close.

If i stand up and tell people despite his action he is my brother and if he repents and believes the good news he can be saved by My Awesome mercy giving loving father even sinners will be drawn to the church.

They would say how can a man have such peace, i want such peace.

It comes from walking in the way of Jesus (pbwh) and having a one on one relationship with the same Deity Jesus (pbwh).
The same Jesus (pbwh) that says we are all brothers to serve each other and ordination truly comes from The Father through pure selfless sacrifice.

God bless ya Bro an i am real thankful to God for your caring and sharing with me. “the word rocks”
 
A literal interpretation would seem contrary to Scripture since Scripture uses “father” in other areas. Gen 45:8, “So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt.”

Job 29:16, “I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know.”

Is 22:21, “and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.”

2 Kgs 2:12, “And Elisha saw it and cried, 'My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!..”

Acts 7:2, “And Stephen said: 'Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran”

Romans 9:10, “And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac”

Let’s expand the passage a bit.

Matthew 23:8-10 says, “But you are not to be called rabbi (which means teacher), for you have one teacher, and your are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.”

So, if Matthew 23:9 is to be taken literally, we would assume that 23:8 would also be literal, correct? In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…”

1 Tim 2:7, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” Certainly Paul would be aware that he shouldn’t be referring to himself as a teacher.

1 Cor 12:28, “And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.” Does Paul misunderstand?

Eph 4:11, “And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers…”

The term, “doctor” is Latin for “teacher”. That would be forbidden by that verse in Matthew. How about referring to someone as “mister” or “mistress” (Mr or Mrs)? Those terms mean “master”, again a violation of these verses.

So then, either Paul and all of us who refer to people as Mr., Mrs., teacher, doctor, father, etc are wrong or Jesus didn’t intend the passage to be taken literally. I sincerely doubt that verses 8 and 10 are not to be taken literally, but verse 9 is. So, what did Jesus mean?

Taken as a whole, Jesus was criticizing Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their chasing after status and prestige.

He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.

He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.

“Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ” (1 Cor. 4:17); “To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (1 Tim. 1:2); “To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (2 Tim. 1:2).

“This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare” (1 Tim 1:18); “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 2:1); “But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel” (Phil. 2:22).

“To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior” (Titus 1:4); “I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment” (Philem. 10).

Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: “She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, “Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children” (2 Cor. 12:14); and, “My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!” (Gal. 4:19).

John said, “My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1); “No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth” (3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as “fathers” (1 John 2:13–14).

By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests “father.” Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.

Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest’s spiritual care, thus they have great filial affection for priests and call them “father.” Priests, in turn, follow the apostles’ biblical example by referring to members of their flock as “my son” or “my child” (cf. Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).
 
i think this is the problem,im not saying ive been an angel ,sometimes. i seen a study where religon is down.im not saying anyone is right or wrong.but come on,we’re losing people.and you know why,its not, that their not looking.its because their confused,its because their soo many diferent religons. it should be soo easy.but a lot of people are making it hard.we need to start finding an answer, to make things right.i think we need to start calling things for what they are in all religons and make one thats unified.i think if theirs issues that we know thats wrong, we need to aknowledge them, fix them, and go own for the better.we need to get all the religons together , and finally hammer all these issues out.so we can be how god wanted us to be.before we lose a whole lot of people. i know some people are crazy, but look at the numbers.google it. do you really want to risk, all of humanity, just to say your right.
It is a good post. May Allah bless those who are righteous and try to unify the entire world in a peaceful co-operative manner.
 
Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.
In the context of post #113 i should still call him father and recognise him as my authority?
 
God bless you
Thank you. I can use all the blessings I can receive.
sj:
In my previous post i dont think the priest i spoke of really fed the Church well, note i say think.

I dont know but think his action separates him from the quotation you have made.
I’m sorry you had that experience. It’s inexcusable. Sounds like he hurt the faith of many souls. What I’m going to say is not meant to be an excuse of any kind. The Irony is that priest has probably heard people confess the same sins and maybe worse. Satan is a succesful sifter. When a priest falls, his fall always echoes farther and louder.and felt by more people.
sj:
God bless ya Bro an i am real thankful to God for your caring and sharing with me. “the word rocks”
blessings in return :highprayer:
 
In the context of post #113 i should still call him father and recognise him as my authority?
I’m not sure what post #113, I don’t know how the posts are numbered (sorry for my ignorance). Recognizing the priest as your spiritual father and so calling them "Father Bob (or whatever) is no different than recognizing a person as a doctor and calling them “Doctor Smith”. It is clear (crystal clear) that Scripture was not forbidding calling anyone father when Scripture then goes on and calls people father. It is clear, in the context of the passage, that Jesus was referring to the hypocrites who were fasting so that others could see them, praying so that others could see them, etc.
 
I’m not sure what post #113, I don’t know how the posts are numbered (sorry for my ignorance). Recognizing the priest as your spiritual father and so calling them "Father Bob (or whatever) is no different than recognizing a person as a doctor and calling them “Doctor Smith”. It is clear (crystal clear) that Scripture was not forbidding calling anyone father when Scripture then goes on and calls people father. It is clear, in the context of the passage, that Jesus was referring to the hypocrites who were fasting so that others could see them, praying so that others could see them, etc.
look to your right at the top you will see post # 139 and just go with the #
 
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