Fatima miracle of the sun?

[Mannyfit75]

Sure. I would love to see Mary too. No doubt, she will lead me the right way to Jesus.

I have no doubt of the beauty Mary has when we see her in heaven.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Perhaps a better word than “illusion” might be “vision”.

Perhaps they all had a tremendous vision, albeit much like the “personal vision” Paul had on the road to Damascus…

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

I’ll also note that on the day Jesus died, the sun was darkened. This seems to have the potential to be a global event.

Likewise, Joshua’s long day was another potentially global event

Depending on who you talk to, some will say there are records of these events and some will say there are no reliable records-- but certainly these events would be global if they happened.

These events would be global if they happened. Unless, of course, they were a “vision”.

 

[Good_Fella]

Let me put it this way. It is possible for God to manipulate the minds of us mere mortal men and women to let us see what he wishes to see.

It would be better if the vision was not limited to that area in Fatima. If the Miracle of the Sun was to be truly a miracle, and the entire nations witness it then I would say it could be real.

Mannyfit, not a single soul witnessed the actual moment Jesus rose from the dead, and only his disciples saw him after he rose from the dead. But Christ’s resurrection, according to St.Augustine, is God’s greatest miracle.

Paxvobiscum
Good Fella

 

[cranster]

Yeah, but nothing in the messages of Fatima (or any other approved apparition) contradict the scriptures or Christian teaching.

IMO “misguided faith” would be leaving the Catholic faith, as I found out the hard way. (Link to my testimony)Well that makes sense if it is not found to have been one… The teaching of the Catholic Church is that these approved apparitions are “worthy of belief”, not that they are required.Dealt with above…Good! Let’s get into that for just a second here.

What is the scripturally stated test of any prophecy?

Deuteronomy 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken? 22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.

So then…Were there prophecies given at Fatima? Indeed there were.

1. WWI would end, but unless Russia was consecrated to Christ,
2. There would be another even worse war, and
3. Russia would scourge the Earth by spreading atheism all over the world.

Did all those things come to pass? Yes they did.

So…based upon the Biblical test of prophecy the Blessed Virgin brought a valid word from the Lord.

Moreover, the message of every Marian apparition ever approved by the Catholic Church as worthy of belief has had the very same essential message that she expressed in John 2:5 “…Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.”

ChurchMilitant has raised excellent points here that need to be considered.

I find it interesting how the human mind works. It could only be a miracle if God did it within the narrow paramaters I have set for Him… If the whole world saw it then it could be a miracle!

It’s been pointed out several times that it was viewed by people with no interest as many as 30 - 35 kilometers away, and it DID dry everything out. That precludes the possibility of a vision or illusion. Whatever it was it had a physical effect on the people and the earth.

 

[Good_Fella]

ChurchMilitant has raised excellent points here that need to be considered.

I find it interesting how the human mind works. It could only be a miracle if God did it within the narrow paramaters I have set for Him… If the whole world saw it then it could be a miracle!

It’s been pointed out several times that it was viewed by people with no interest as many as 30 - 35 kilometers away, and it DID dry everything out. That precludes the possibility of a vision or illusion. Whatever it was it had a physical effect on the people and the earth.

“In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy you have believed, because our holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.” Pope Urban Vlll (1623-44)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[pneuma07]

It had been raining steadily for quite awhile prior to the apparition Since so many people had traveled long distances to be present they were soaking wet.
The rain continued right up until the apparition.
…
Afterwards - the previously soaking wet crowd discovered themselves to be completely dry.

 

[cranster]

Lorarose;34146:

Forgive me if I ask everybody to focus a little on this aspect.

Many things about what happened that day 90 years ago in central Portugal are really very, very remarkable. But this appears peculiarly so.

Here, by any standard, we have nothing to do with psycology, individual or mass. That is a physical event. That does not require hypnosis, persuasion or anything like that. It requires energy. A very large amount of it.

We all know how a normal hair drier or similar devices work.
Even forgetting the surroundig areas, the power released just
on the crowd and the ground where they were standing, to get this effect by ordinary means, should have been probably comparable conservatively to something like a million modern hair driers acting simultaneously.

Who has more details ? What sort of explanations

are available for that ? What are your opinions ?

Thank you.

That’s why I reiterated the fact that every soaking wet person dried out along with the ground. Like you said that takes it out of the realm of psychology and group dynamics. I would think it would take a greater degree of faith to say that an illusion can have physical effects on the environment. That flies in the face of logic. I guess that leaves several choices. You can reject reality and call it only an illusion. You can say it was from the devil which I think Church Militant made a great case scripturally why what happened is beyond the power of the devil, or you can accept it as an actual miracle from God through the Blessed Mother. I guess for some the latter is just too frightening to accept because that would show that God is real and has given the Blessed Mother a very special place in heaven.

My opinion is that it is an approved apparition and worthy of belief . Our Blessed Mother said there was going to be a miracle that day and it was in fact a miracle that occured. When you combine the prophetic nature of the apparition which also came to pass as prophesied thats enough for me to believe.

 

[Valke2]

Ex Nihlo’s suggestion that I used “vision” instead of “illusion” was a good one. I meant that Fatima would have to have been a mass vision (assuming we are taling about Divine intervention), rather than the sun actually moving the way witnessess described.

In retrospect, I am sorry that I made any statements which could be viewed as an attack on anyone’s faith or as an attempt to tarnish for anyone what they believe is a miracle of God.

 

[cranster]

Ex Nihlo’s suggestion that I used “vision” instead of “illusion” was a good one. I meant that Fatima would have to have been a mass vision (assuming we are taling about Divine intervention), rather than the sun actually moving the way witnessess described.

In retrospect, I am sorry that I made any statements which could be viewed as an attack on anyone’s faith or as an attempt to tarnish for anyone what they believe is a miracle of God.

You’re not attacking anyone’s faith. I am curious though how a vision could dry 100,000 soaking wet people? How do you account for that?

 

[Valke2]

You’re not attacking anyone’s faith. I am curious though how a vision could dry 100,000 soaking wet people? How do you account for that?

that would be seperate from the vision aspect. Either people were mistaken or it happened.

Btw, I did find what purported to be a picture of the sun/sky at the time. As someone had suggested, it didn’t show much as it was difficult to tell what the sun was doing.

 

[Like]

why? This was supposed to have happened three times over a period of 12 minutes.

Sorry, but I can only speak for myself and the fright of possibly the sun falling from the sky would have had such a grip on me I don’t think I could have moved. Just MHO!

 

[Like]

Ex Nihlo’s suggestion that I used “vision” instead of “illusion” was a good one. I meant that Fatima would have to have been a mass vision (assuming we are taling about Divine intervention), rather than the sun actually moving the way witnessess described.

In retrospect, I am sorry that I made any statements which could be viewed as an attack on anyone’s faith or as an attempt to tarnish for anyone what they believe is a miracle of God.

I did not take your statements as an attack of my faith or Religion, I felt you were seeking understanding of the event. As a Catholic, I’m not required to believe private revelations when such has approval of the Church, but I do.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You’re not attacking anyone’s faith. I am curious though how a vision could dry 100,000 soaking wet people? How do you account for that?

I don’t know if the event should be considered a “vision” or an “actual event”. However, in the example of gave of Paul on the road to Damascus, an even which he himself describes as a “vision”, we also see that others present “heard the sound but did not see anyone”.

This seems to imply that even visions can have extra components to them that others may partially perceive (and experience) all the while not actually seeing anything. I think this could apply to the drying of the clothes at Fatima too-- an extra component to the vision that others may have partially perceived (and even experienced) all the while not actually seeing anything.

Consequently, I’ve asked twice now about the fact that on the day Jesus died, the sun was darkened. This seems to have the potential to be a global event.

Likewise, Joshua’s long day (something which we’re all familiar with) was another potentially global event.

Some claim there is no historical record of these global events and some claim there is some historical record of these global events-- it depends on who you talk to I guess.

Nonetheless, if someone is claiming that the miracle at Fatima does not follow any Biblical pattern, I would disagree with them and point them toward these other Biblical events already noted above-- the darkneing of the sun at Jesus’ death and Joshua’s long day.

And if someone is claming that it was impossible for the miracle at Fatima to have been a vision, then I would point them toward the Biblical account of Saul’s miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus and exactly how ‘selective’ his vision was.

One could point toward 2 Kings 6:17 too…

And Elisha prayed, “O LORD, open his eyes so he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

And even if someone can’t see what’s happening, this doesn’t mean that they can’t feel the effects of the angels around them.

As a followup, I would still point them toward these other Biblical events already noted above-- the darkneing of the sun at Jesus’ death and Joshua’s long day.

And if someone is thinking that I don’t believe the event at Fatima was a miracle, then I would again point them toward all the points I’ve already noted above and state quite clearly that the Church has approved of her miraculous appearance during the Miracle of the Sun-- therefore, yes, I do believe that this was an authentic miracle of God’s grace manifested at Fatima.

 

[Church_Militant]

I don’t know if the event should be considered a “vision” or an “actual event”. However, in the example of gave of Paul on the road to Damascus, an even which he himself describes as a “vision”, we also see that others present “heard the sound but did not see anyone”.

This seems to imply that even visions can have extra components to them that others may partially perceive (and experience) all the while not actually seeing anything. I think this could apply to the drying of the clothes at Fatima too-- an extra component to the vision that others may have partially perceived (and even experienced) all the while not actually seeing anything.

Consequently, I’ve asked twice now about the fact that on the day Jesus died, the sun was darkened. This seems to have the potential to be a global event.

Likewise, Joshua’s long day (something which we’re all familiar with) was another potentially global event.

Some claim there is no historical record of these global events and some claim there is some historical record of these global events-- it depends on who you talk to I guess.

Nonetheless, if someone is claiming that the miracle at Fatima does not follow any Biblical pattern, I would disagree with them and point them toward these other Biblical events already noted above-- the darkneing of the sun at Jesus’ death and Joshua’s long day.

And if someone is claming that it was impossible for the miracle at Fatima to have been a vision, then I would point them toward the Biblical account of Saul’s miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus and exactly how ‘selective’ his vision was.

One could point toward 2 Kings 6:17 too…

And even if someone can’t see what’s happening, this doesn’t mean that they can’t feel the effects of the angels around them.

As a followup, I would still point them toward these other Biblical events already noted above-- the darkneing of the sun at Jesus’ death and Joshua’s long day.

And if someone is thinking that I don’t believe the event at Fatima was a miracle, then I would again point them toward all the points I’ve already noted above and state quite clearly that the Church has approved of her miraculous appearance during the Miracle of the Sun-- therefore, yes, I do believe that this was an authentic miracle of God’s grace manifested at Fatima.

 

[cranster]

Consequently, I’ve asked twice now about the fact that on the day Jesus died, the sun was darkened. This seems to have the potential to be a global event.

Likewise, Joshua’s long day (something which we’re all familiar with) was another potentially global event.

Some claim there is no historical record of these global events and some claim there is some historical record of these global events-- it depends on who you talk to I guess.

What are the sources of the non biblical historical account of these two events?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

What are the sources of the non biblical historical account of these two events?

Here’s an example of what some would consider ‘evidence’ of Joshau’s long day-- although I’ve suspended my own judgement on this until better information is presented. Others would disagree with this evidence.

And here’s an example of what some would consider ‘evidence’ of the darkening of the Sun the day of Jesus’ death-- something which I’m more likely to accept.

Thallus apparently has written about a darkness that occured around the passover, and Thallus explained that this darkness was probably caused by a solar eclipse…

Thallus and Phlegon:

Julius Africanus (c.221 AD) tells us that the first century historian Thallus, in the third volume of his Histories, attempted to explain the darkness at the time of Jesus’ death in terms of a solar eclipse; though Africanus himself expresses doubt about this theory.

Just after this passage Africanus also makes mention of another historian, Phlegon, who wrote his chronicles (known as the ‘Olympiads’) about 140 AD. Phlegon is also cited by Origen, as follows:

‘Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events (although falling into confusion about some things which refer to Peter, as if they referred to Jesus), but also testified that the result corresponded to his predictions. So that, he also, by these very admissions regarding foreknowledge, as if against his will, expressed his opinion that the doctrines taught by the fathers of our system were not devoid of divine power.’ (‘Against Celsus’ 2.14.)

‘And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place, Phlegon too, I think, has written in the thirteenth or fourteenth book of his Chronicles.’ (‘Against Celsus’ 2.33.)

‘Regarding these we have in the preceding pages made our defence, according to our ability, adducing the testimony of Phlegon, who relates that these events took place at the time when our Saviour suffered.’ (‘Against Celsus’ 2.59.)

Julius Africanus says that this is not possible, because a darkness that is caused by a solar eclipse occurs when the sun, earth and moon position are as follows:



Jewish passover always occured on the 14th day of a lunar calendar which is always full moon (like the lunar festival of the Chinese). And the Sun-moon position during a full moon is always as follows:



Therefore, the darkness that Thallus said he saw can’t be caused by a solar eclipse…

Again, others would disagree with this evidence though.

But, to be fair, I think all these claims to pertain to the Miracle of the Sun-- something which, although it was not observed around the world, was observed by people as far as forty miles out from Cova da Iria.

So if this is a mass hallucination, one does have to account as to why this was observed independently by people up to around forty miles away from the event.

My own thoughts are that Our ord allowed Our Lady to appear rather low into the atmosphere, with the Miracle of the Sun occuring perhaps a few miles above the town so that those within the area may see but those outside the 40 mile radius would not.

The reason why this happened, the children had reported, was because the Lady had promised them that at mid-day on October 13th (in the Cova da Iria) she would reveal herself to the children and provide a miracle “so that all may believe.” The date of the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II is certainly more than a coincedence too-- and seems to be in some way related.

Nonetheless, I believe this is an authentic miracle, rightfully approved by the Church.

 

[EphelDuath]

Which brings us back to square one. This miracle would have been seen on a global level if the sun was truly behaving as erratically as claimed. Mass hysteria is a logical assumption to make.

There were people 20 miles away seeing the same things.

This was before cellphones, by the way.

 

[cranster]

Which brings us back to square one. This miracle would have been seen on a global level if the sun was truly behaving as erratically as claimed. Mass hysteria is a logical assumption to make.

It’s not logical unless in their hysteria they girated so feverishly and moved so fast that it literally dried their clothes. They would have had to create so much heat energy doing this that it also dried the ground. Extremely unlikely. Mass hysteria explains the psychological not the physical.

 

[chrislky]

Dear Nobody,
I have read much about the miracle of the sun at Fatima and this is how I understood from it. This is my personal reflection and whether anyone accept it or not is not important. You yourself have to decide.

I believe what most of the saints says, that Mary is also a prophet in our modern times. She prepared the way for the 1st coming of Jesus as Savior, so it is in Jesus 2nd coming as Judge. The miracle of the sun at Fatima is telling us that we are already living in the 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation, about “The Woman clothed with the sun”, and we are almost reaching the end of the bible. Mary and Jesus weeping statues and images throughout the world tells us that many of thier children are not on the right path to heaven and so thier intervention. Just imagine a mother at home crying, what do you think is the problem? Will it not because of her childrens or her husbands problems, and are we not Her spiritual sons and daughters? . And if the end is near and we are still on the wrong path that leads to hell and eternal damnation, will our Loving Mother, Mary just keep quiet? From the year 18xx until now, She has been appearing throughout the world and is still asking us all, “Come back to my Son, Jesus”, repent and come back to God.

Just look at the present world and all that is happening, the threat of Nuclear War, the Global Warming, the Terrorist Attacks and bomings, and the Natural Disasters happening around us. I recommend that you read the book, “To the Priest, Our Lady’s Beloved Sons”, the Marian Movement of Priests, blue book, maybe you’ll understand more.

May God bless us all.

Chrislky

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Dear Chrislky,

It may serve us well to recall the scriptures where Jesus tells us that the times and occasions are set by God’s own authority and they are not for us to know when they will be (Ac 1:6-8, Mk 13:32). We may never know when the end might come for each one of us. We have to be ready everyday.

I think the important message of Fatima is of prayer and repentance, which is what the church has been teaching all along.