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JFonseka
Guest
100,000 people experience the same thing, and here we have church mice telling us otherwise.
Great day
Great day
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cranster
Guest
I don’t know where people get the idea that God is small and incapable… that the universe and it’s laws are bigger then God. God is unlimited power and not only transcends the universe and the laws of physics, but he made made them! If God wanted to turn the sun into a little bunny rabbit and make it hop around for a while before putting it back in the sky… He’s both capable and free to do so, and likewise he could have performed that miracle within the laws of physics by using it in a way we simply can’t understand.100,000 people experience the same thing, and here we have church mice telling us otherwise.
Great day
God doesn’t have limits but our sceptical little brains sure do!
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JFonseka
Guest
Exactly. Doesn’t Jesus say in Mark 9:23 that all things are possible if you believe?
The one who created the heavens can do as He wishes.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Private revelations do not form part of the deposit of faith (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition) of the RC Church, and its members are not bound to believe in them. However, as a matter of prudence, assent would normally be expected of Catholics provided the Church has judged a private revelation worthy of belief. Popes Pius Xll, John XXlll, Paul Vl, John Paul ll, and Benedict XVl have voiced their approval of the supernatural origin of the events in Fatima. After a canonical inquiry the apparitions in Fatima were officially declared “worthy of belief” in October 1930 by the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima. 
In the ‘City of God, XXl.8,2’ St. Augustine stated that a miracle is not contrary to nature, but only to our knowledge of nature; miracles are made possible by hidden potentialities in nature that are placed there by God. In ‘Summa Contra Gentiles, lll,101’, expanding on Augustine’s theme, St. Thomas Aquinas said that a miracle must go beyond the order usually observed in nature, though he insisted that a miracle is not contrary to nature in any absoloute sense, since it is the nature of all created things to be responsive to God’s will. In his ‘Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding’, David Hume offered two definitions of ‘miracle’: first, as a violation of natural law (p.114); second, as " a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interpostion of some invisible agent" (p. 115n). Thus, according to the more complex second definition, it must be a violation of natural law and also an expression of the divine will. Of course, only a true miracle expresses an act of God. False miracles have occurred ever since Moses’ experience with the Pharaoh’s temple priests. But these are not actually miracles as defined above, only deceptions of the senses caused by fallen angels or human agents. And these events are experienced only in the immediate vicinity of their origin. In Fatima, people who were over 30 kilometers away and unconcerned with the events there witnessed the miracle of the sun. Only God could have permitted these people to observe this miracle from so far away. Fallen angels do not have this power. :nope:
On 13 October 1917, three months after Our Lady told the three simple shepherd children the miracle of the sun would occur that day at noon, and in spite of the rain and overcast morning sky, this great miracle of God occurred at the appointed hour. :clapping: And only God could have cleared the sky. :yup:
“How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand…And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand; that is the end of him.” Mark 3:23-26
“Do you wish to offer yourselves to God, to endure all the suffering that He may please to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and to ask for the conversion of sinners? Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and repeat often, especially whenever you make a sacrifice for them: 'O, Jesus, it is for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”
Our Lady of Fatima
“The image of man that was first ruined in the revolt against God in the Garden of Eden was restored when the Woman brought forth a Man - a perfect man without sin, a man personally united with God. He is the pattern of the new race of men, who would be called Christians. If the image of man was restored through a Woman, in the beginning, then shall not the Woman again be summoned by the mercy of God to recall us once again to that original pattern?”
Bishop Fulton J Sheen
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
In the ‘City of God, XXl.8,2’ St. Augustine stated that a miracle is not contrary to nature, but only to our knowledge of nature; miracles are made possible by hidden potentialities in nature that are placed there by God. In ‘Summa Contra Gentiles, lll,101’, expanding on Augustine’s theme, St. Thomas Aquinas said that a miracle must go beyond the order usually observed in nature, though he insisted that a miracle is not contrary to nature in any absoloute sense, since it is the nature of all created things to be responsive to God’s will. In his ‘Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding’, David Hume offered two definitions of ‘miracle’: first, as a violation of natural law (p.114); second, as " a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interpostion of some invisible agent" (p. 115n). Thus, according to the more complex second definition, it must be a violation of natural law and also an expression of the divine will. Of course, only a true miracle expresses an act of God. False miracles have occurred ever since Moses’ experience with the Pharaoh’s temple priests. But these are not actually miracles as defined above, only deceptions of the senses caused by fallen angels or human agents. And these events are experienced only in the immediate vicinity of their origin. In Fatima, people who were over 30 kilometers away and unconcerned with the events there witnessed the miracle of the sun. Only God could have permitted these people to observe this miracle from so far away. Fallen angels do not have this power. :nope:
On 13 October 1917, three months after Our Lady told the three simple shepherd children the miracle of the sun would occur that day at noon, and in spite of the rain and overcast morning sky, this great miracle of God occurred at the appointed hour. :clapping: And only God could have cleared the sky. :yup:
“How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand…And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand; that is the end of him.” Mark 3:23-26
“Do you wish to offer yourselves to God, to endure all the suffering that He may please to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and to ask for the conversion of sinners? Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and repeat often, especially whenever you make a sacrifice for them: 'O, Jesus, it is for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”
Our Lady of Fatima
“The image of man that was first ruined in the revolt against God in the Garden of Eden was restored when the Woman brought forth a Man - a perfect man without sin, a man personally united with God. He is the pattern of the new race of men, who would be called Christians. If the image of man was restored through a Woman, in the beginning, then shall not the Woman again be summoned by the mercy of God to recall us once again to that original pattern?”
Bishop Fulton J Sheen
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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Valke2
Guest
One thing that might have helped would have been some photographs of the sun descending? I understand that there were quite a few cameras in the crowd.
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Church_Militant
Guest
things are and that there isn’t such a thing as misguided faith.Yeah, but nothing in the messages of Fatima (or any other approved apparition) contradict the scriptures or Christian teaching.
IMO “misguided faith” would be leaving the Catholic faith, as I found out the hard way. (Link to my testimony)
Well that makes sense if it is not found to have been one…
The teaching of the Catholic Church is that these approved apparitions are “worthy of belief”, not that they are required.
Dealt with above…
Yes, the evidence of the historical records, I believe, proves the existence of Christ. No, I cannot prove transubstantiation. Yes, I believe that Christ forgives sin (the proof is in Scripture). About 2,000 years ago, something so profound and powerful happened that set the world on its heels. People witnessed something that would cost them their lives, yet they were more than willing to do so. Good! Let’s get into that for just a second here.
What is the scripturally stated test of any prophecy?
Deuteronomy 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken? 22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.
So then…Were there prophecies given at Fatima? Indeed there were.
- WWI would end, but unless Russia was consecrated to Christ,
- There would be another even worse war, and
- Russia would scourge the Earth by spreading atheism all over the world.
So…based upon the Biblical test of prophecy the Blessed Virgin brought a valid word from the Lord.
Moreover, the message of every Marian apparition ever approved by the Catholic Church as worthy of belief has had the very same essential message that she expressed in John 2:5 “…Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.”
and the facts just don’t add up. Leaving things up to faith shouldn’t be an excuse to let sleeping dogs lie. Inasmuch as faith is valid, misguided faith and deception are as well.
Peace,
CMI’d say that you need to recalculate things based on the facts I have just shown you, because your sum is what is wrong.
My friend, you err’ed in leaving the Catholic faith, and the deceptions are not within our most holy faith. I urge you to reconsider and listen very carefully to the Holy Spirit, prayerfully begging Him to guide you into all truth.
If you need to talk to someone privately, then please feel free to either PM me here at CAF or e-mail me through this site and I’ll be glad to talk to you one on one.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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Church_Militant
Guest
As does the account of the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, right?Err, I could easily said omnipotent power can let certain people experience one thing whilst others do not at all. And omnipotency can infact do that.
Simple logic also tells us that.
L
Like
Guest
I never thought about it in this respect! YES! Great point!Wow, VERY good point
L
Like
Guest
Yrs, but we are talking about 1917. I believe if I had been there with a camera, I don’t think it would have ever entered my mind to snap a picture of the sun.
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cranster
Guest
I doubt black and white would have captured the essence of the event. It wouldn’t have captured the spinning, nor the multi colors being thrown everywhere. Doesn’t sound like anyone thought about capturing it in motion picture. I don’t know of any.
I probably wouldn’t be worried about getting a picture if I thought the sun was going to crash into the earth and the world was going to end.:bigyikes:
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Valke2
Guest
why? This was supposed to have happened three times over a period of 12 minutes.
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Valke2
Guest
THere are some picutres that were taken of the crowd on that day, during the event. Very few show anyone staring at the sky in amazement.
And why would a mircale/sign involve tricking people into believing their lives were going to end? Or that the world was going to end? That doesn’t sound like something the Mother Mary would do, from what I have heard about her.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
I think you’re getting yourself into trouble by using our modern fascination with cameras and applying it to old time when cameras weren’t so necessary to prove things.
Besides, it was raining. I don’t think they had waterproof cameras in those days.
I really think a photograph still wouldn’t help you to believe. I think you are just trying to derail this thread - just trying to get our attention away from the thousands of people who witnessed that day. The newspaper articles are there for you to find. The three children are respectable enough to believe.
You just don’t want to believe, because that would be a contradiction to your Jewish faith. I suspect leaving your Jewish faith is harder than believing in Fatima.
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Valke2
Guest
How can questioning the miracle of Fatima be derailing a thread about the miracle? THere are plenty of inconistencies regarding the 3 children. Certainly enough to give those who doubt reason to doubt. But I thought we were focusing on the miracle of the sun at Fatima.
YOu are right that it would be harder for me to leave my Jewish faith than beleiving in Fatima. I can only say that I would be as skeptical of a modern day miracle proclaimed by a group of Jews as I am of this one.
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Valke2
Guest
I am looking at pictures that were taken of the crowd when the event was supposed to have taken palce. some (many) are looking at the sky. some are looking at the camera. None are running in fear, as I wouild assume many would if the sun were seen falling to the earth. I’ve seen 3 pictures of the crowds on that day. I assume there are more in other books that I haven’t found.
For me, this is a question simply of debating the pluses and minuses. I don’t have any emotional attachment to the event. I can state with confidence that even if there was a dvd of the miracle or even if I were there, it would not convince me to abandon my jewish faith. So I admit that my eyes are not open to this one, as it were.
For me, this is a question simply of debating the pluses and minuses. I don’t have any emotional attachment to the event. I can state with confidence that even if there was a dvd of the miracle or even if I were there, it would not convince me to abandon my jewish faith. So I admit that my eyes are not open to this one, as it were.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Because it appears you are denying that the event wasn’t witnessed by thousands by people.
I’m sorry, Valke2; Just because we don’t have affidavits, it doesn’t mean it’s a legend.
I accept you don’t believe the event to be divine intervention. But the event is historical fact as proven by newspaper articles.
I would accept that there was some sort of phenomena in the atmosphere above Fatima that day to cause the illusion that the sun “danced” for the people at Fatima. But I can’t accept it was some sort of scientific co-incidence, because it was children who predicted the Oct 13th miracle. You would have to come up with some doosey of a conspiracy theory to debunk that.
So, please don’t derail the thread by suggesting the event (divine or not) didn’t take place
Yes you do. Your Jewish faith is the emotional attachment.
But don’t take it personally - Protestants have the same emotional attachment.
It is the Catholics who don’t have emotional attachment, because Fatima neither contradicts nor adds to our faith.
Regardless of accepting or dismissing Fatima, our faith is still the same.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, 'I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the coming of the Lord. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the Lord’s name shall be saved.”
{Acts 2:17-21}
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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Valke2
Guest
ok. So what I guess would be more accurate is that Catholics have a much stronger emotional attachment to believing in Fatima then I as a Jew have in disbelieving it.
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Lev23
Guest
Wasnt Fatima named after a Muslim princess? Fatima was also the name of one of Muhummads daughters.
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pneuma07
Guest
What sort of explanations are normally given about this aspect of the event ?
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