Fatima miracle of the sun?

[Churchmouse]

A long thread so I dont know if this has been touched on before

When Joshua commanded the Sun to stand still, there is NO recording in History of this event among the then literate people (Egyptians, Babylonians, I think the Chinese as well)

The event was local–possibly an extremly subjective experience in all participants–but still of Divine origin

Fundamentalists accept this miracle --though they cannot come up with any coraboritive proof.

Fatima had witnesses far removed from the event–including the Azores. The “mass hallucination label” (its so broad a charge you cant dignify it with the term “explanation”) just dosnt hold water–it dosnt even hold water for the people there.

Yes, it has been touched on before earlier in the thread (about 3 years earlier ) and just recently as well. Read the progression from post #117 onward to see what is being said.

Btw, I don’t know if by “fundamentalists” you are implicating me, but I assure you, I am not a fundamentalist.

Again, I have heard the claims that there were others–those not in the direct vicinity–who witness the same phenomenon, but the willingness of the participants on this forums to “hook me up” with valid primary sources has been nil.

Peace,
CM

 

[Gamera]

Again, I have heard the claims that there were others–those not in the direct vicinity–who witness the same phenomenon, but the willingness of the participants on this forums to “hook me up” with valid primary sources has been nil.

Peace,
CM

I don’t know what you mean by “primary source.” I told you that William Thomas Walsh’s book “Our Lady of Fatima” contains his personal interviews with eyewitnesses to the miracle. Are you saying you want a book actually written by an eyewitness rather than by a professional historian who questioned the eyewitness? That’s a curious standard. By that standard, most of our knowledge of human history would get tossed as “hearsay.”

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

It was nothing more than a sign that was asked for and God provided.

Just like the sign Jesus gave to the onlookers that He had the power to forgive sin, without Jesus saying “Arise and walk” they would not have believed Him.

Same for Fatima, even though some still don’t believe, reminds me of the rich man wanting to warn his brothers.

Even if an angel appeared to warn his brothers they would not believe.

Anyway an explanation of the Miracle of the sun…

Each month, increasing numbers of people came to be with the children. At the July apparition the children asked the Blessed Mother to give a sign to make people believe the apparitions. The Blessed Mother promised to them a great public miracle in October.

An evil generation seeks a sign ? not sure I understand that statement, but it may apply.

 

[Churchmouse]

I don’t know what you mean by “primary source.” I told you that William Thomas Walsh’s book “Our Lady of Fatima” contains his personal interviews with eyewitnesses to the miracle. Are you saying you want a book actually written by an eyewitness rather than by a professional historian who questioned the eyewitness? That’s a curious standard. By that standard, most of our knowledge of human history would get tossed as “hearsay.”

Not at all! If Walsh interviewed these folks that would be primary, but I would be interested in a few things (who these people are and how reputable they may be). It won’t change my mind about this alleged “miracle” for the reasons I stated, but I’d be interested in hearing what they saw, who they were, and gauge how true their statements may or may not be. Also, William Thomas Walsh is a Roman Catholic and, thus, not an unbiased voice in the matter. According to this website, he “…was given a sound Catholic education that would inspire him in later years with a fierce desire to defend it.” He doesn’t sound like the type of guy I’d resource in matters such as these. Do you know of any unbiased sources?

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

It was nothing more than a sign that was asked for and God provided.

That’s an assumption.

Just like the sign Jesus gave to the onlookers that He had the power to forgive sin, without Jesus saying “Arise and walk” they would not have believed Him.

And sometimes, Jesus wouldn’t indulge the crowds, such as in John 6:30 and Matthew 16:1-4. Does that mean that He didn’t want them to believe?

Same for Fatima, even though some still don’t believe, reminds me of the rich man wanting to warn his brothers.

Even if an angel appeared to warn his brothers they would not believe.

You got to complete the story. This is found in Luke 16:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Luk 16:27-31)

They had Scripture (the Law and the Prophets) and if they couldn’t listen to it, neither would they listen to someone who was raised from the dead (as evidenced by the fact that Jesus rose and still the Jews hardened their hearts).

Anyway an explanation of the Miracle of the sun…

Each month, increasing numbers of people came to be with the children. At the July apparition the children asked the Blessed Mother to give a sign to make people believe the apparitions. The Blessed Mother promised to them a great public miracle in October.

An evil generation seeks a sign ? not sure I understand that statement, but it may apply.

Precisely my point! The words of Christ can be very relevant to this event, considering the amount of people who were seeking a “miracle.” They were primed and ready for anything.

Peace,
CM

 

[water]

I never said I was abandoning all miracles. What I did imply is that you should not believe all miracles.
CM

I didn’t specifically said that to you that you were abandoning all miracles.

Did Catholic believe in all miracles? I don’t believe so.

So, your concern is good, and so is that of Catholic.

Check this out: apparitions.org
I am not sure if the data on the site is the most updat4ed, but it is enough to give you a general idea.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Has anyone heard, or have any ideas on what the miracle meant? It just sounds so strange to me, I have to ask, “why that?”

Also, after reading about the miracle, I was reading the book of Revelation, and came to the description of the 2nd beast, Rev 13:13, “It performed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of everyone.”

I have to say, it made me go hmmm.

The Church has “endorsed” the miracles at Fatima, right? Has the church said anything about this - the meaning of the miracle or the relation to Revelation?

Wait …

So you’re saying Mary’s the Beast …?

I’m confused. Where does that leave Oprah then?

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

That’s an assumption.

CM

To me it doesn’t matter, to you it does, some of what I posted was off the top of my head.

A sign was asked for, a sign was given, if you don’t believe then I can’t help you, why complicate the issue.

Over 70, 000 people saw it, but there are always those that will analyse everything, why ? but ? oh ? hasn’t this similarities to revelation ?

It’s good to ask questions, but sometimes the answer to that question is simply “I don’t know”, thats why it’s called faith.

Curiosity killed the cat.

 

[Churchmouse]

To me it doesn’t matter, to you it does, some of what I posted was off the top of my head.

Yet, it should matter. The ability to discern what is right from wrong, good from evil, etc. comes with the territory.

A sign was asked for, a sign was given, if you don’t believe then I can’t help you, why complicate the issue.

And as I stated in a prior post, even if a sign was answered, it doesn’t therefore prove that the apparition is of God. Scripture is very clear that there are “signs and wonders” which aren’t of God and are used to deceive (see Matthew 24:24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:9 as examples).

Over 70, 000 people saw it, but there are always those that will analyse everything, why ? but ? oh ? hasn’t this similarities to revelation ?

Quantity of witnesses isn’t evidence that the miracle is of God. It could just as well be that 70,000 all saw a deception and there is a possibility of mass hysteria. From what I understand there were many running, fearing for their lives. Thus, there is even the possibility that those who were running weren’t focused on the sun as much as others were and thought they saw a “dancing sun” when, in reality, they weren’t still enough to evaluate if it was truly “dancing and spinning.” That’s just the nature of hysteria.

It’s good to ask questions, but sometimes the answer to that question is simply “I don’t know”, thats why it’s called faith.

It’s good to ask questions, but it is better to do as the Apostle stated in 1 Thessalonian 4:21-22, to “Prove all things, hold fast to the good. Abstain from every appearance of evil.” We can’t use faith to bolster our own distinctives, thus we must “prove all things.”

Curiosity killed the cat.

Poor cat If it weren’t for curiosity, we’d be living in caves rubbing sticks.

Peace,
CM

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

Yet, it should matter. The ability to discern what is right from wrong, good from evil, etc. comes with the territory.

Some things are dependent on faith, if you don’t believe it’s not my problem, I believe.

Go to the Vatican website and type in Fatima, it’ll tell you…

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions etc;

And as I stated in a prior post, even if a sign was answered, it doesn’t therefore prove that the apparition is of God. Scripture is very clear that there are “signs and wonders” which aren’t of God and are used to deceive (see Matthew 24:24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:9 as examples).

The Church has had nearly 100 years to discern the messages, in the end all it says is, they are worthy of belief.

Quantity of witnesses isn’t evidence that the miracle is of God. It could just as well be that 70,000 all saw a deception and there is a possibility of mass hysteria. From what I understand there were many running, fearing for their lives. Thus, there is even the possibility that those who were running weren’t focused on the sun as much as others were and thought they saw a “dancing sun” when, in reality, they weren’t still enough to evaluate if it was truly “dancing and spinning.” That’s just the nature of hysteria.

It could, thats why I follow the Church and not someones whim.

It’s good to ask questions, but it is better to do as the Apostle stated in 1 Thessalonian 4:21-22, to “Prove all things, hold fast to the good. Abstain from every appearance of evil.” We can’t use faith to bolster our own distinctives, thus we must "prove all things."

Prove all things ? can you prove Jesus existed ? can you prove Transubstantiation ? can you prove sins are forgiven ? do I need to go on ? in the end it’s faith, we either believe or we don’t.

Poor cat If it weren’t for curiosity, we’d be living in caves rubbing sticks.

LOL and but for the humble canary we’d all be blown up, I agree with Father Ambrose, there are some things we are better not to know.

Adam and Eve were curious, look at the mess they got us all into .

Anyway** again **simply put is, a sign was asked for, a sign was given, I believe it was from God, you don’t, the Church has not condemned it, but you might though, then again I don’t have to follow you.

 

[Churchmouse]

Some things are dependent on faith, if you don’t believe it’s not my problem, I believe.

I agree, some things are, but it doesn’t mean that all things are and that there isn’t such a thing as misguided faith.

Go to the Vatican website and type in Fatima, it’ll tell you…

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions etc;

I really don’t think that the Vatican would say anything else. They’re certainly not going to go on record calling it a deception.

The Church has had nearly 100 years to discern the messages, in the end all it says is, they are worthy of belief.

Last I heard, they are still leaving it up to the discretion of the believer.

It could, thats why I follow the Church and not someones whim.

Again, Rome leaves to the discretion of the believer. There is no official position on this.

Prove all things ? can you prove Jesus existed ? can you prove Transubstantiation ? can you prove sins are forgiven ? do I need to go on ? in the end it’s faith, we either believe or we don’t.

“Prove all things” means to test everything. Yes, the evidence of the historical records, I believe, proves the existence of Christ. No, I cannot prove transubstantiation. Yes, I believe that Christ forgives sin (the proof is in Scripture). About 2,000 years ago, something so profound and powerful happened that set the world on its heels. People witnessed something that would cost them their lives, yet they were more than willing to do so.

LOL and but for the humble canary we’d all be blown up, I agree with Father Ambrose, there are some things we are better not to know.

Adam and Eve were curious, look at the mess they got us all into .

Anyway** again **simply put is, a sign was asked for, a sign was given, I believe it was from God, you don’t, the Church has not condemned it, but you might though, then again I don’t have to follow you.

You’re right! You don’t have to follow me, but I see differently and the facts just don’t add up. Leaving things up to faith shouldn’t be an excuse to let sleeping dogs lie. Inasmuch as faith is valid, misguided faith and deception are as well.

Peace,
CM

 

[bmosman]

A long thread so I dont know if this has been touched on before

When Joshua commanded the Sun to stand still, there is NO recording in History of this event among the then literate people (Egyptians, Babylonians, I think the Chinese as well)

The event was local–possibly an extremly subjective experience in all participants–but still of Divine origin

Fundamentalists accept this miracle --though they cannot come up with any coraboritive proof.

Fatima had witnesses far removed from the event–including the Azores. The “mass hallucination label” (its so broad a charge you cant dignify it with the term “explanation”) just dosnt hold water–it dosnt even hold water for the people there.

 

[bmosman]

This seems a good place to interject something I discovererd awhile ago with regards to witnesses away from Cova Da Iria. It is from the Introduction to the book Three Soldiers (Penguin), by John Dos Pasos. The book has nothing to do with Fatima or the Church. The introduction explains that Dos Pasos had shipped to France with other American soldiers (1917!) during WWI. To quote the book’s introduction: ‘…he (Dos Pasos) thought back to his experiences as an ambulance driver around Verdun and recalled a vivid dream image he had of the sun “filmed over like a bloodshot eye which began to sway and wobble in the sky as a spent top sways and wobbles, and whirling rolled into the sea’s vermillion waves…” Countless other soldiers had experienced something similar’.

Verdun, France is a long way from Cova Da Iria. Neither Dos Pasos nor the “countless other soldiers” were looking for a sign, nor realized its meaning. But is was certainly noticed!

 

[cranster]

Add to this “miracle” that it was strictly isolated to this area, it makes it all the more unbelievable.

Peace,
CM

I’m curious, How many credible witnesses exactly does it take for an event to be believable. If it were viewable by the whole world then honestly how could it possibly be linked to Fatima. The scpetics would just say it was a universal event and not linked to any specific city.

Look at how many people saw Jesus ascend into Heaven, did their testimony remove scepticism… Hardly!

 

[Deconi]

Wasn’t it John Paul 2 who made some attempt ‘fulfill’ the request of Our Lady from that revelation? Something about consecrating Russia, if I recall the reading properly!

That’s about as ‘official’ as The Church can get of this event as a Revelation (If correct about JP2)

 

[The_Catholic]

Personally, I don’t buy it. There are major differences between an eclipse and a dancing sun , especially one described as falling and erratic. Add to this “miracle” that it was strictly isolated to this area, it makes it all the more unbelievable.

Peace,
CM

Heh, just want to say, Mother Mary in these apparations can be seen by some, but not others. So I think this “sun” was only meant to be seen by these people who, well witnessed it. Personaly, I don’t think the sun actually did this, but that it was a vision to show the people who were watching as proof that she was there.

All of the visions of Mother Mary approved by the Church are wonderful. I have a book called “Visions of Mary” and it’s very interesting. I haven’t finished it yet, but the more I read it, the closer I feel to God, and Jesus Christ. And I give honor to and respect Mother Mary.

The Trinity defies logic as well, in fact, the idea of God does too, so does the burning bush, presence of Christ seen by John in revelation, with shining white hair and eyes of “fire.” Even the “voice” of God. Does God, a spirit have a voice? How, He doesn’t have a mouth and a voice box. Oh sure its easy to say “well He’s God so He can do anything.” While that is true, as I believe, still, all of it is illiogical, and cannot be “proved” logically. So I try not to think of these things “logically” but spiritualy,

God bless

 

[The_Catholic]

I’m curious, How many credible witnesses exactly does it take for an event to be believable. If it were viewable by the whole world then honestly how could it possibly be linked to Fatima. The scpetics would just say it was a universal event and not linked to any specific city.

Look at how many people saw Jesus ascend into Heaven, did their testimony remove scepticism… Hardly!

Wow, VERY good point

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

However, the miracles of Christ didn’t involve something as universally common as the sun.

Yes they did. When Christ was on the cross the sun was darkened.

For the record, there actually are some documents floating around which speak of some people witnessing the darkness that day-- references from past historians (not direct eye-witnesses).

I would also like to note that Joshua’s long day may not have been observed all around the world. There are some who claim that others around the world did witness this-- but I’m not 100% sure of the accuracy of their claims.

 

[cranster]

For Petes sake… as many as a 100,000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun. mass hysteria will result from an event itself or it could result from the actions or words from one or more persons. But it wasn’t one person that said they witnessed the miracle of the sun and everyone freaked out. They all witnessed it. The only logical explanation outside of an actual miracle is a mass hallucination. The probabability that even 2 people will have the exact same hallucination at the same time is extremely low let alone 100,000 people having the same hallucination at the same time.

This happened in within the last hundred years, too soon to turn it into a legendary account. It’s not as though it happened 2,000 years ago where you could add the argument that none of the people who witnessed it actually existed.

How much evidence do you need?

 

[JFonseka]

Hi “nobody”

I’ll tell you the problem I have with this “miracle.” It involves simple logic. The earth has but “one” sun. It’s safe to say that every planet in this solar system has but “one” common sun. Every day, every living creature on God’s good earth wakes up to see this sun. What happened in Fatima makes no sense if other parts of this world didn’t experience the same. The accounts add to my skepticism: the sun was blood red, it was falling, it casted a rainbow color upon the earth, people were screaming, fainting, etc., yet, it was solely in Fatima where this “miracle” occurred. This sounds like mass hysteria to me.

Peace,
CM

Err, I could easily said omnipotent power can let certain people experience one thing whilst others do not at all. And omnipotency can infact do that.

Simple logic also tells us that.