Fatima miracle of the sun?

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

ok. So what I guess would be more accurate is that Catholics have a much stronger emotional attachment to believing in Fatima then I as a Jew have in disbelieving it.

Point taken.

Wasnt Fatima named after a Muslim princess? Fatima was also the name of one of Muhummads daughters.

Bishop Fulton Sheen made note of this in his 1952 book, “The World’s First Love” where he devoted a chapter to Mary and Muslims. He noticed that Muslims have an interesting attraction to Our Lady of Fatima and noted that Fatima is also the name of Muhammed’s favourite daughter whom Muhammed regards as the highest woman in Heaven after Our Lady.

 

[cranster]

YOu are right that it would be harder for me to leave my Jewish faith than beleiving in Fatima. I can only say that I would be as skeptical of a modern day miracle proclaimed by a group of Jews as I am of this one.

I’m curious, what exactly are you skeptical about. A whole lot of people witnessed the event. Is it that you don’t believe them, think it was mass hysteria, or a mass halucination? If 100,000 people actually did witness this phenomena then how would you explain it? I’m sure since you are staying with your Jewish faith that you wouldn’t attribute it to God.

 

[Valke2]

I’m curious, what exactly are you skeptical about. A whole lot of people witnessed the event. Is it that you don’t believe them, think it was mass hysteria, or a mass halucination? If 100,000 people actually did witness this phenomena then how would you explain it? I’m sure since you are staying with your Jewish faith that you wouldn’t attribute it to God.

Given the time and place that the miracle ocurred in, given some of the information that has come out regarding the three prophecies, I’m skeptical.

Numbers of people there vary from 40,000 to 100,000. And I don’t understand what the purpose of having an illusion of the sun falling and spinning is supposed to teach us. As for my being Jewish, I am comfortable with believing that God creates miracles designed to communicate with Christians that He wouldn’t create for the people of Israel. Just as I am comfortable with the belief that God reveals himself in different ways to Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Good_Fella]

Marian apparitions generally seem to have happened as a sort of prelude or response to a particular revolutionary event in the world. Our Lady of Guadalupe (Mexico) appeared at the height of the Protestant Reformation (revolution) in 1531; the appearances of Our Lady of Rue du Bac in 1830 coincided with the revolution in Paris that year; the apparition of Our Lady of La Salette (France) in 1846 occurred just prior to the European revolutionary outburts of 1848; Our Lady of Lourdes appeared in France in 1858 before the revolution of 1870 in that country; the Marian apparitions at Pontmain and Knock (Ireland) took place during the 1870s, a distressing time for the Catholic Church, with the Kulturkampf in Germany, a persecution of Catholics in that country, providing a repressive model for other European states; Similarly, Our Lady of Fatima appeared in 1917 during the height of World War 1 and just before the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. There’s another great Marian event which began just before Gorbachev and the counter-revolution in Russia, but I cannot mention its name since it’s still under investigation. Coincidence?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[cranster]

Given the time and place that the miracle ocurred in, given some of the information that has come out regarding the three prophecies, I’m skeptical.

Numbers of people there vary from 40,000 to 100,000. And I don’t understand what the purpose of having an illusion of the sun falling and spinning is supposed to teach us. As for my being Jewish, I am comfortable with believing that God creates miracles designed to communicate with Christians that He wouldn’t create for the people of Israel. Just as I am comfortable with the belief that God reveals himself in different ways to Jews and Gentiles.

I doubt it was an illusion as it was raining right before the miracle everyone was wet including the ground. Right afterward everyone was dry including the ground. I’m not aware of an illusion that can dry 40,000 - 100,000 people including the ground. There must be a better word for it than illusion.

I consider myself Judeo-Christian and love my Jewish brothers and sisters. Most of the Jews I have spoken to consider Jesus to be a false Messiah that came to lead Jews astray. Now I don’t know if that’s a belief you hold, but if it is, how would you be able to reconcile God communicating with Christians let alone performing miracles for them? Just curious my friend.

 

[Valke2]

I doubt it was an illusion as it was raining right before the miracle everyone was wet including the ground. Right afterward everyone was dry including the ground. I’m not aware of an illusion that can dry 40,000 - 100,000 people including the ground. There must be a better word for it than illusion.

I consider myself Judeo-Christian and love my Jewish brothers and sisters. Most of the Jews I have spoken to consider Jesus to be a false Messiah that came to lead Jews astray. Now I don’t know if that’s a belief you hold, but if it is, how would you be able to reconcile God communicating with Christians let alone performing miracles for them? Just curious my friend.

I used the word “illusion” because no one else outside the vicinity saw the sun move. It would have been recorded somewhere else in the world by someone if it weren’t an illusion confined to that area. In other words, whatever actually happened, it does not appear as if the sun actually danced. That doesn’t mean that a miracle didn’t occur. And I didn’t mean to imply that the drying of clothes was an illusion.

I believe, as a Jew, that GOd makes and made covenants with other nations. I do not believe Jesus was God or the Messiah. However, I believe that Christanity spread monothesim in a way that Judaism could not. So I don’t have a problem with believing that both Judaism and Christanity are religions of revelation and that God revealed Himself to others besides Israel.

There are many ways to understand God, IMO. (as best we can). FOr me, the best way is through Judaism.

 

[Good_Fella]

I used the word “illusion” because no one else outside the vicinity saw the sun move. It would have been recorded somewhere else in the world by someone if it weren’t an illusion confined to that area. In other words, whatever actually happened, it does not appear as if the sun actually danced. That doesn’t mean that a miracle didn’t occur. And I didn’t mean to imply that the drying of clothes was an illusion.

I believe, as a Jew, that GOd makes and made covenants with other nations. I do not believe Jesus was God or the Messiah. However, I believe that Christanity spread monothesim in a way that Judaism could not. So I don’t have a problem with believing that both Judaism and Christanity are religions of revelation and that God revealed Himself to others besides Israel.

There are many ways to understand God, IMO. (as best we can). FOr me, the best way is through Judaism.

God did not grant this miracle to be observed by the entire world, but only to a chosen few. These few included numerous people who were about 30 kilometers away. They were graced with the privilege to behold this miracle although they were not interested in the events of Fatima, or else they would have gone to the Cova da Ira that morning. Their witness has glorified God, for it dismisses the false rationalization that 70,000 people in an immediate vicinity suffered from mass hallucinations. :yup:

You cannot accept the truth that the Virgin Mother of Christ appeared in Fatima, because you reject the true Messiah.

I’m curious. How does God make a covenant with other nations who have embraced a false Messiah? Is this your personal belief? It doesn’t sound Judaic. :nope:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Valke2]

God did not grant this miracle to be observed by the entire world, but only to a chosen few. These few included numerous people who were about 30 kilometers away. They were graced with the privilege to behold this miracle although they were not interested in the events of Fatima, or else they would have gone to the Cova da Ira that morning. Their witness has glorified God, for it dismisses the false rationalization that 70,000 people in an immediate vicinity suffered from mass hallucinations. :yup:

You cannot accept the truth that the Virgin Mother of Christ appeared in Fatima, because you reject the true Messiah.

I’m curious. How does God make a covenant with other nations who have embraced a false Messiah? Is this your personal belief? It doesn’t sound Judaic. :nope:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

There is scriputal (our scripture) support for the believe that God entered into covenants with other nations. I"ll dig it up later.

Either the sun moved or it didn’t move. Since no one else saw the sun move, either the rest of the world was under an illusion that the sun was where it was supposed to be, or the people in the area of Fatima were shown an illusion that the sun wasn’t where it was supposed to be.

 

[clmowry]

One thing that might have helped would have been some photographs of the sun descending? I understand that there were quite a few cameras in the crowd.

How could you tell in a still photo?

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

I am looking at pictures that were taken of the crowd when the event was supposed to have taken palce. some (many) are looking at the sky. some are looking at the camera. None are running in fear, as I wouild assume many would if the sun were seen falling to the earth. I’ve seen 3 pictures of the crowds on that day. I assume there are more in other books that I haven’t found.

For me, this is a question simply of debating the pluses and minuses. I don’t have any emotional attachment to the event. I can state with confidence that even if there was a dvd of the miracle or even if I were there, it would not convince me to abandon my jewish faith. So I admit that my eyes are not open to this one, as it were.

Do any of the pictures you’ve seen profess to be of the event itself or just of the crowd gathered there after/preceeding the event?

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Really?

If you’ve got a link to some writings somewhere that would be interesting reading.

Is this a relatively new interpretation of is this of ancient origin?

Chuck

There is scriputal (our scripture) support for the believe that God entered into covenants with other nations. I"ll dig it up later.

Either the sun moved or it didn’t move. Since no one else saw the sun move, either the rest of the world was under an illusion that the sun was where it was supposed to be, or the people in the area of Fatima were shown an illusion that the sun wasn’t where it was supposed to be.

 

[Valke2]

Do any of the pictures you’ve seen profess to be of the event itself or just of the crowd gathered there after/preceeding the event?

Chuck

Two pictures that I was able to find profess to be of the crowd watching the event.

 

[Valke2]

Really?

If you’ve got a link to some writings somewhere that would be interesting reading.

Is this a relatively new interpretation of is this of ancient origin?

Chuck

I remember there being referenced to God’s covenants with the Assyrians and the Egyptians.

Here are some references in general that I was able to dig up:

When the Holy one Blessed be He, revealed himself to give the Torah to Israel, he revealed himself not only to Israel but to all the other nations. (Sifrei Devarim 343)

The prophet Elijah said: I call heaven and earth to bear witness that anyone – Jew or gentile, man or woman, slave or handmaid – if his deeds are worthy, the Divine Spirit will rest upon him. (Tanna Debai Eliyahu 9:1)

The Torah calls Israel a treasured nation. However, this does not imply, as some have mistakenly assumed, that Israel has a monopoly on God’s love and favor. On the contrary, Israel’s most cherished ideal is that of the universal brotherhood of mankind. (Nineteen Letters of Ben Uzziel, tr. Bernard Drachman [New York, 1942], p. 15.)

We should consider Christians and Moslems as instruments for the fulfillment of the prophecy that the knowledge of God will one day spread throughout the earth. Whereas the nations before them worshipped idols, denied God’s existence, and thus did not recognize God’s power or retribution, the rise of Christianity and Islam served to spread among the nations, to the furthest ends of the earth, the knowledge that there is One God who rules the world, who rewards and punishes and reveals Himself to man. Indeed, Christian scholars have not only won acceptance among the nations for the revelation of the Written Torah but have also defended God’s Oral Law. For when, in their hostility to the Torah, ruthless persons in their own midst sought to abrogate and uproot the Talmud, others from among them arose to defend it and to repulse the attempts. (Commentary to Pirkey Avot, 4:13)

 

[Mannyfit75]

I remember there being referenced to God’s covenants with the Assyrians and the Egyptians.

Here are some references in general that I was able to dig up:

When the Holy one Blessed be He, revealed himself to give the Torah to Israel, he revealed himself not only to Israel but to all the other nations. (Sifrei Devarim 343)

The prophet Elijah said: I call heaven and earth to bear witness that anyone – Jew or gentile, man or woman, slave or handmaid – if his deeds are worthy, the Divine Spirit will rest upon him. (Tanna Debai Eliyahu 9:1)

The Torah calls Israel a treasured nation. However, this does not imply, as some have mistakenly assumed, that Israel has a monopoly on God’s love and favor. On the contrary, Israel’s most cherished ideal is that of the universal brotherhood of mankind. (Nineteen Letters of Ben Uzziel, tr. Bernard Drachman [New York, 1942], p. 15.)

We should consider Christians and Moslems as instruments for the fulfillment of the prophecy that the knowledge of God will one day spread throughout the earth. Whereas the nations before them worshipped idols, denied God’s existence, and thus did not recognize God’s power or retribution, the rise of Christianity and Islam served to spread among the nations, to the furthest ends of the earth, the knowledge that there is One God who rules the world, who rewards and punishes and reveals Himself to man. Indeed, Christian scholars have not only won acceptance among the nations for the revelation of the Written Torah but have also defended God’s Oral Law. For when, in their hostility to the Torah, ruthless persons in their own midst sought to abrogate and uproot the Talmud, others from among them arose to defend it and to repulse the attempts. (Commentary to Pirkey Avot, 4:13)

That’s an interesting insight. I also like to say the Miracle of Sun, I’m very doubtful of it as well. Though I do acknowledge other miracles concerning Fatima. The only problem I had is with the Miracle of the Sun. It was limited to a small area in Fatima. I wonder why was it limited? If it truly was meant be a miracle, I think the entire world should have see the Sun dance on itself. That way people would believe. Only as many as 40,000 to 100,000 witness it. I wonder why that was so limited.

Luckily, the CC does not require us to believe in this. I only believe parts it of it be truthful. The miracle of the sun in IMO an illusion of the mind.

I’m Catholic by the way.

 

[Valke2]

To switch gears for a moment, are things like Stigmata considered miracles, or are they something else?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

That’s an interesting insight. I also like to say the Miracle of Sun, I’m very doubtful of it as well. Though I do acknowledge other miracles concerning Fatima. The only problem I had is with the Miracle of the Sun. It was limited to a small area in Fatima. I wonder why was it limited? If it truly was meant be a miracle, I think the entire world should have see the Sun dance on itself. That way people would believe. Only as many as 40,000 to 100,000 witness it. I wonder why that was so limited.

Luckily, the CC does not require us to believe in this. I only believe parts it of it be truthful. The miracle of the sun in IMO an illusion of the mind.

I’m Catholic by the way.

You may be right; It may be just an illusion of the mind. But thousands of minds? Surely, that would be a miracle.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You may be right; It may be just an illusion of the mind. But thousands of minds? Surely, that would be a miracle.

Let me put it this way. It is possible for God to manipulate the minds of us mere mortal men and women to let us see what he wishes to see.

It would be better if the vision was not limited to that area in Fatima. If the Miracle of the Sun was to be truly a miracle, and the entire nations witness it then I would say it could be real.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Let me put it this way. It is possible for God to manipulate the minds of us mere mortal men and women to let us see what he wishes to see.

It would be better if the vision was not limited to that area in Fatima. If the Miracle of the Sun was to be truly a miracle, and the entire nations witness it then I would say it could be real.

Ahhh… but happy are those who believe without seeing. (See John 20:29)

 

[Mannyfit75]

Ahhh… but happy are those who believe without seeing. (See John 20:29)

I prefer seeing Jesus Christ than the miracle at Fatima… What about you?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I prefer seeing Jesus Christ than the miracle at Fatima… What about you?

Sure. I would love to see Mary too. No doubt, she will lead me the right way to Jesus.