Fatima, the work of satan?

[Tom317]

ok so to tom and the others who believe a jew can be saved without christ…

is the fact that they are jewish significant to your answer…or can anyone be saved without christ?

secondly, what is your belief in more detail as it differs from mine.

Take care,

S x

I have no doubt Jews can and will be saved because God promised them that–they are still His chosen.

As for others, the Church teaches that salvation is “possible” for people who do not know Christ, yet strive to worship God throughout their lives…notice it is “possible.”

 

[NotWorthy]

This is the type of thing that makes other devout Christians go nuts, doesn’t it? Christ himself says in no uncertain terms “no” and yet some Catholics say yes. How can one be a Christian and deny salvation is through Christ alone which neccesarily means one must believe in Him. He could not have been more clear on this. In fact the message is one of the clearest in the New Testament.

Some of you Catholics need to get something this foundational straight. Jesus said no one come to the Father but by Him. And He says we do that first by believing in Him. This is Christianity 101.

Are you familiar with the 3 types of Baptism?
Baptism of water, Baptism of desire, and Baptism of Blood?

 

[Abira]

i agree melchior, but it’s always good to be challenged in your views

S x

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Simon, once again, the “three secrets” is nowhere near the totality of the Fatima message–and that’s what I was making the point about. Why not look up Fatima–actually, here is a link to EWTN (Eternal Word) and I linked right to the Marian apparitions. (You can check out the entirety–angelic apparitions, Marian apparitions, the message of Fatima, and the secrets, there).

ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/BVM.htm

Okay straight from your link…

the Lady said,

Jesus wants you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world the devotion to **my **Immaculate Heart. … My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way leading you to God.

During the July apparition this was mentioned again. After showing them a vision of hell, and the souls condemned there, she states,

To save them God wants to establish in the world the devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

Why does this trouble me so?
To me it feels like it specifically is retracting from the gospel message that Christ is the way truth and life.

 

[jacobaer]

When I read things such as martin has posted, I think about this passage of Scripture:

1 John 5:16

“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.”

This is an amazing promise! First, this verse, along with a few others, establishes the fact that there IS such a thing as mortal vs. venial sin. Some sins will take a Christian out of his/her state of grace and put them back into a state of spiritual death. If the person who commits a “mortal” sin does not repent, they are taking the chance that they could lose their salvation if they die in such a state. Of course, there is forgiveness and absolution for the person who repents and receives the sacrament of reconciliation.

And there are sins that will NOT cause one to lose their state of grace. So here is where this promise in 1 John 5 comes in. God says that we can pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, in effect, act as little mediators for them, when we see them commit sins of the venial sort. And the promise is that God will give that brother or sister…LIFE!

So why would I be upset if our Blessed Mother…who’s prayers are way more effective than mine in that she is beholding the face of God in heaven, the mother of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and conceived without original sin therefore making HER prayers more effective than mine…can through her own prayers bring about salvation in the life of someone? SHE HERSELF is not saving that person. Her Son Jesus is saving them. Intercessory prayer is very powerful in bringing about salvation in a person’s life.

Our salvation is not sealed until we die in a state of grace. Until that happens, we need all the prayers we can get, from the saints here on earth, as well as the saints in heaven, of whom Mary is chief.

Peace,
Gene

 

[jacobaer]

Martin,

What do you think devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary entails?

Peace,
Gene

 

[Tom317]

Okay straight from your link…

the Lady said,

Jesus wants you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world the devotion to **my **Immaculate Heart. … My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way leading you to God.

During the July apparition this was mentioned again. After showing them a vision of hell, and the souls condemned there, she states,

To save them God wants to establish in the world the devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

Why does this trouble me so?
To me it feels like it specifically is retracting from the gospel message that Christ is the way truth and life.

You seem to miss the most important part of that message:

"…God wants…"

It does not say “…Mary wants…”

God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his only son, it was not what Abraham had in mind. Mary had no thought of bearing Christ in her womb until God called her…it is what God wants, that is the key behind all of this.

 

[Tom317]

Okay straight from your link…

the Lady said,

Jesus wants you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world the devotion to **my **Immaculate Heart. … My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way leading you to God.

During the July apparition this was mentioned again. After showing them a vision of hell, and the souls condemned there, she states,

To save them God wants to establish in the world the devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

Why does this trouble me so?
To me it feels like it specifically is retracting from the gospel message that Christ is the way truth and life.

Were the Jews wrong to have a devotion to the Ark of the Covenant? [note: it was a devotion, not worship, huge difference there]

 

[Melchior]

First, as a Bible believing Christian you know that God made promises to His Chosen people the Jews. Those promises are irrevocable. God does not break His promises.

Second, Jews continue to be God’s chosen people, Christians are the graftet into family of God, we are adopted children.

Only through the Jewish Messiah. The true Jew, as Paul said, is the Jew of the heart. God’s chosen people are spiritual Israel which consists of believing Jews (in Christ) and the Gentiles who are grafted in. Jesus said to the Jews of his day that to deny Him you could not be saved. There is only one covenant since Christ. Jews are obligated to believe in Him as are gentiles. Why would Paul wish himself cursed for his peoples sake if he was not concerned for their souls apart from Christ? Unbelieving Jews have violated God’s covenant through unbelief. No one is promised heaven by virtue of their lineage. And I say this as a Hebrew. I say with Paul I count it as dung for the sake of Christ. Gentiles are not second class citizens in the Kingdom of God and Jews are saved the same way everyone else is. Through Christ alone.

 

[Melchior]

i agree melchior, but it’s always good to be challenged in your views

S x

Well I should hope so as a fellow Anglican!

 

[Tom317]

Only through the Jewish Messiah. The true Jew, as Paul said, is the Jew of the heart. God’s chosen people are spiritual Israel which consists of believing Jews (in Christ) and the Gentiles who are grafted in. Jesus said to the Jews of his day that to deny Him you could not be saved. There is only one covenant since Christ. Jews are obligated to believe in Him as are gentiles. Why would Paul wish himself cursed for his peoples sake if he was not concerned for their souls apart from Christ? Unbelieving Jews have violated God’s covenant through unbelief. No one is promised heaven by virtue of their lineage. And I say this as a Hebrew. I say with Paul I count it as dung for the sake of Christ. Gentiles are not second class citizens in the Kingdom of God and Jews are saved the same way everyone else is. Through Christ alone.

I feel you are wrong for many reasons, but this is going way off topic. I suggest you get a copy of: “Salvation is from the Jews,” which covers these points very well.

God’s promises are irrevocable. Faithful Jews will be saved, unfaithful Jews will not, just as faithful Christians will be saved and unfaithful Christians will not. Beyond that, every soul that is saved will be saved by Christ.

 

[Melchior]

Are you familiar with the 3 types of Baptism?
Baptism of water, Baptism of desire, and Baptism of Blood?

Yes. But I think it gets twisted beyond recongnition these days into a pseudo-universalism. The theif on the Cross is a great example of Baptism of desire (or blood) He believed but did not have the opportunity to be baptized but he did embrace Christ in faith. All three baptisms cannot save those who reject Christ. It is far worse to be water baptized and to reject Christ as that is apostasy. There is not baptism of desire if one does not desire Christ.

 

[Eireann]

Actually I am curious but, save a small handful of you guys willing to share their honest opinion… none wish to answer because of the fear of thinking outside the “church”
There is NO alterior motive on this thread…

Your getting my honest opinion, if you want lies, your responding to the wrong person.

Jesus said those that aren’t with Him, are against Him.

Matt 12:30

 

[Melchior]

I feel you are wrong for many reasons, but this is going way off topic. I suggest you get a copy of: “Salvation is from the Jews,” which covers these points very well.

God’s promises are irrevocable. Faithful Jews will be saved, unfaithful Jews will not, just as faithful Christians will be saved and unfaithful Christians will not. Beyond that, every soul that is saved will be saved by Christ.

This is just unbiblical, dispensational nonsense. No offense intended. But I was messianic Jew at one point and spent years in this stuff. One cannot be a faithful Jew without faith in Christ. The Apostles were faithful Jews. Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic covenant - that is what the New Covenant is the completion of the Abrahamic covenant. How can one be a faithful Jew while rejecting their messiah. It is nonsense. Read the book of Hebrews. It makes it abundantely clear as does Romans and Galatians. The Pharisees were faithful Jews and we know what Jesus said about them.

 

[Tom317]

This is just unbiblical, dispensational nonsense. No offfense intended. But I was messianic Jew at one point and spent years in this stuff. One cannot be a faithful Jew without faith in Christ. The Apostles were faithful Jews. Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic covenant - that is what the New Covenant is the completion of the Abrahamic covenant. How can one be a faithful Jew while rejecting their messiah. It is nonsense. Read the book of Hebrews. It makes it abundantely clear as does Romans and Galatians. The Pharisees were faithful Jews and we know what Jesus said about them.

I disagree strongly. Please get the book, read it and then we can discuss on a different thread, should be fun.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You seem to miss the most important part of that message:

"…God wants…"

It does not say “…Mary wants…”

God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his only son, it was not what Abraham had in mind. Mary had no thought of bearing Christ in her womb until God called her…it is what God wants, that is the key behind all of this.

Jim Jones said “god wants you to drink this koolaid”
He was inspired by satan was he not.
Satan understanding the veneration for Mary truely could disguise himself as such, as scripture warns that he could disquise the angel of light.
What does scripture mean by angel of light?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Were the Jews wrong to have a devotion to the Ark of the Covenant? [note: it was a devotion, not worship, huge difference there]

They did not have devotion to the ark itself, the ark is where God resided among his people the devotion was to God.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Martin,

What do you think devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary entails?

Peace,
Gene

Jane Frances or Eden I dont recall already kindly explained this to me.

 

[Tom317]

Jim Jones said “god wants you to drink this koolaid”
He was inspired by satan was he not.
Satan understanding the veneration for Mary truely could disguise himself as such, as scripture warns that he could disquise the angel of light.
What does scripture mean by angel of light?

Again, you look the other way. Is there a point to this in your view?

 

[Tom317]

They did not have devotion to the ark itself, the ark is where God resided among his people the devotion was to God.

Nonsense, the Ark did not house God, yet they still venerated it because it contained the Word of God in the form of the tablets of the Commandments.

So, were they wrong?