Fed up with irreverence

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What you state is not true, at least not according to St Alphonso de’ Liguori, the graces that we can recieve from the Holy Sacrifice are greater the more solmenly they are celebrated. The objective reality is that the mass is the same sacrifice as that of Calvary, so objectively the graces are infinite from any mass. But the graces we can recieve are greater if the the mass is celebrated with more solemnity and reverance.Besides to compose anything for mass is the prerogative of Saints, not experts.
Alphonsus Liguori considered reverence to begin in the heart. If one has the most beautiful liturgy in the world, but has a heart of stone, there is little reverence there. On the other hand, you have a woman like Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta whose life straddled the liturgical reform, her reverence at the Eucharist was far superior than most people. This is the reverence that Alphonsus is referring to. Legalism is not a form of reverence. Obedience is.

For example, when you opne your post with “What you say is not true.” Where is the reverence there? Our holy father Francis always taught us to speak to each person with a sense of reverence, regardless of who they are, because Jesus is there in each soul. Jesus is also in our soul waiting to love the other person.

This is the reverence that we draw from the liturgy and take back into the liturgy, the love of Christ to all.

Let me give you an example that’s a little difference, but may help here. We began speaking about the difficulties for you or any other person who loves the extraordinary form when they have no option but to attend the ordinary form for daily mass. The love that drives you to Christ in the Eucharist, every day, is the kind of reverence to which St. Alphonsus refers. There is a sublime love for Christ in the Eucharist in the heart of any person who seeks him daily.

While it would be better for all involved if the liturgy were celebrated according to all the rules of the GIRM, that fact that situations creep up that are out of compliance, doesn’t take away from the reverence that you bring to the celebration. Therefore, it doesn’t deprive you of the graces that are bound to be yours through your reverence in union with Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Alphonsus Liguori considered reverence to begin in the heart. If one has the most beautiful liturgy in the world, but has a heart of stone, there is little reverence there. On the other hand, you have a woman like Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta whose life straddled the liturgical reform, her reverence at the Eucharist was far superior than most people. This is the reverence that Alphonsus is referring to. Legalism is not a form of reverence. Obedience is.

For example, when you opne your post with “What you say is not true.” Where is the reverence there? Our holy father Francis always taught us to speak to each person with a sense of reverence, regardless of who they are, because Jesus is there in each soul. Jesus is also in our soul waiting to love the other person.

This is the reverence that we draw from the liturgy and take back into the liturgy, the love of Christ to all.

Let me give you an example that’s a little difference, but may help here. We began speaking about the difficulties for you or any other person who loves the extraordinary form when they have no option but to attend the ordinary form for daily mass. The love that drives you to Christ in the Eucharist, every day, is the kind of reverence to which St. Alphonsus refers. There is a sublime love for Christ in the Eucharist in the heart of any person who seeks him daily.

While it would be better for all involved if the liturgy were celebrated according to all the rules of the GIRM, that fact that situations creep up that are out of compliance, doesn’t take away from the reverence that you bring to the celebration. Therefore, it doesn’t deprive you of the graces that are bound to be yours through your reverence in union with Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
Dear JR, what you talk about is the subjective dispositions for recieving graces and you are correct in what you state there.

What I was talking about was the external solemnity and external reverence with which mass is celebrated. St Alphonsus states clearly that we can recieve more graces from a solem mass than from a low mass (according to our subjective dispositions of course).

I must tell you that I didn’t mean to insult you, I can be blunt sometimes.

Prayers.

eelpis (that means hope in Greek)
 
Textual analysis has nothing to do with it whatsoever. If a mass in any form is infinite in merit, which it is, they are equal. Anything else is just a discussion on prose. At mass, we go for the Eucharist, not words. (that smacks of protestantism) If all you are concentrating on is the words and not the one who is coming, you are sorely missing the graces that are available to you. To borrow a pre Vatican II term for a mass, a low mass was and is equally meritorious as a Solemn High Mass. Otherwise the merits of a mass would not be infinite. There are no degrees in infinite.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Deacon-

I am a little bit surprised by your response.

The infinite value of the Eucharist- I never denied that. There’s more to the Mass than the Eucharist, however.

When I say that the Tridentine Mass is superior, I mean that it is superior in a doctrinal and anthropological sense, which are real facets of liturgy that you have chosen to ignore. The Pope writes on these aspects of liturgy, as do all liturgical scholars. I posted both missals without including rhetoric, in the hopes that someone would objectively read the prayers and see the obvious truth that the Tridentine Mass better expresses what we believe, the role of the priesthood in the liturgy, etc.

The inclusion of doctrine, edifying language, etc., is not mere “prose,” nor is it incidental. The Mass contains more than Eucharistic prayers for a reason.

Instead of engaging in a discussion of some very important aspects of liturgy, you have chosen to ignore them.

I don’t think there is any point in my saying anything else, since you guys would rather escape than deal with the reality of the text.
 
Dear brother JR,
While it would be better for all involved if the liturgy were celebrated according to all the rules of the GIRM, that fact that situations creep up that are out of compliance, doesn’t take away from the reverence that you bring to the celebration. Therefore, it doesn’t deprive you of the graces that are bound to be yours through your reverence in union with Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
This is so true. Any point of reference for reverence must start from within. The problem I see that some Trads have is that their idea of reverence is controlled by the external. They go around looking for what is wrong with what OTHERS are doing, instead of keeping a focus on what is going on between God and themselves alone during a Liturgy.

Instead of contemplating God internally, they focus on the external.

I guess there are those who will say, “how do you know what goes on inside me?” I would respond, “I don’t have to guess - YOU already let us know that certain externals disturb your perception of the holiness of a Mass.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dearest Father Deacon Ed,
Textual analysis has nothing to do with it whatsoever. If a mass in any form is infinite in merit, which it is, they are equal. Anything else is just a discussion on prose. At mass, we go for the Eucharist, not words. (that smacks of protestantism) If all you are concentrating on is the words and not the one who is coming, you are sorely missing the graces that are available to you. To borrow a pre Vatican II term for a mass, a low mass was and is equally meritorious as a Solemn High Mass. Otherwise the merits of a mass would not be infinite. There are no degrees in infinite.
Thank you for that! I would add however that we are also fed by the Words of Scripture and not just the Eucharist (though, of course, the Eucharist is central). I wholeheartedly agree with your points. Analyzing texts is not going to make the Mass any holier than it already is. The holiness of the Mass/Divine Liturgy/Qorbono rests in the Presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is not more of that Presence just because certain texts are longer or use different language.

It seems some Trads tend to cause the objective and infinite holiness of the Mass/Liturgy/Qorbono to be boxed up in words and structures.

Humbly,
Marduk
 
Code:
St Alphonsus states clearly that we can recieve more graces from a solem mass than from a low mass **(according to our subjective dispositions of course)**.
Bolding = mine
This subjective disposition which you refer to is exactly what we are saying when we refer to "when we refer to when we say, "that which is in your heart. The mass itself gives no more grace as all are infinite. The Church even teaches that if a priest is in mortal sin when offering the mass, that its graces are still infinitefor those attending. It is what you have in your heart that determines how much of this infinite gift you receive from the mass. The solemnity of the priest, the beauty of the mass can help dispose you to the reception of this gift of grace, which in itself is a participation in the divinity of God himself. That gift is finite in all masses. The amount you leave with is determined by your interior disposition.
Pray for Mallory
Deacon-
I am a little bit surprised by your response.
The infinite value of the Eucharist- I never denied that. There’s more to the Mass than the Eucharist, however.
There cannot be more “than just the Eucharist”. The Eucharist is the sum and substance of all that is Catholic. It is the MOST HOLY EUCHARIST, besides which there is nothing greater. What you are speaking of is finite language of man. Nothing more,nothing less.
When I say that the Tridentine Mass is superior, I mean that it is superior in a doctrinal and anthropological sense, which are real facets of liturgy that you have chosen to ignore.
By this statement, I do read that you believe each is infinite in merit and grace. therefore with all that we are saying, we seem to be in agreement as these two things cannot make that which is infinite any greater. .
The inclusion of doctrine, edifying language, etc., is not mere “prose,” nor is it incidental. The Mass contains more than Eucharistic prayers for a reason.Instead of engaging in a discussion of some very important aspects of liturgy, you have chosen to ignore them.
That is because, they, in and of themselves, do not and cannot increase the merit of the mass, which is infinite. For those who prefer one form over the other, that predisposition may help each in hiis or her own way/ That is why Holy Mother Church has given us the option to attend whichever form we prefer.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Here is another perspective, which is different from that of St. Alphonsus. It comes from the man who put compiled the first Roman Missal, St. Francis of Assisi. St. Pius V later gave this missal, with some reforms, to the secular clergy so that they could celebrate it and gave them permission to celebrate it. But contrary to popular opinion, it was not St. Pius V who put it together. He reformed it so that it could be used by priests who were not religious. Observe the focus is not on the external solemnity, but on the spiritual solemnity within the soul.

From the admonitions of St. Francis of Assisi

sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/wosf03.htm

Flesh and drinketh My Blood hath everlasting life." 1

Wherefore [he who has] 2 the Spirit of the Lord which dwells in His faithful, he it is who receives the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord: all others who do not have this same Spirit and who presume to receive Him, eat and drink judgment to themselves. 3 Wherefore, “O ye sons of men, how long will you be dull of heart?” 4 Why will you not know the truth and “believe in the Son of God?” 5 Behold daily He humbles Himself as when from His “royal throne” 6 He came into the womb of the Virgin; daily He Himself comes to us with like humility; daily He descends from the bosom of His Father upon the altar in the hands of the priest. And as He appeared in true flesh to the Holy Apostles, so now He shows Himself to us in the sacred Bread; and as they by means of their fleshly eyes saw only His flesh, yet contemplating Him with their spiritual eyes, believed Him to be God, so we, seeing bread and wine with bodily eyes, see and firmly believe it to be His most holy Body and true and living Blood. And in this way our Lord is ever with His faithful, as He Himself says: “Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” 7

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Here is another perspective, which is different from that of St. Alphonsus. It comes from the man who put compiled the first Roman Missal, St. Francis of Assisi. St. Pius V later gave this missal, with some reforms, to the secular clergy so that they could celebrate it and gave them permission to celebrate it. But contrary to popular opinion, it was not St. Pius V who put it together. He reformed it so that it could be used by priests who were not religious. Observe the focus is not on the external solemnity, but on the spiritual solemnity within the soul.

From the admonitions of St. Francis of Assisi

sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/wosf03.htm

Flesh and drinketh My Blood hath everlasting life." 1

Wherefore [he who has] 2 the Spirit of the Lord which dwells in His faithful, he it is who receives the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord: all others who do not have this same Spirit and who presume to receive Him, eat and drink judgment to themselves. 3 Wherefore, “O ye sons of men, how long will you be dull of heart?” 4 Why will you not know the truth and “believe in the Son of God?” 5 Behold daily He humbles Himself as when from His “royal throne” 6 He came into the womb of the Virgin; daily He Himself comes to us with like humility; daily He descends from the bosom of His Father upon the altar in the hands of the priest. And as He appeared in true flesh to the Holy Apostles, so now He shows Himself to us in the sacred Bread; and as they by means of their fleshly eyes saw only His flesh, yet contemplating Him with their spiritual eyes, believed Him to be God, so we, seeing bread and wine with bodily eyes, see and firmly believe it to be His most holy Body and true and living Blood. And in this way our Lord is ever with His faithful, as He Himself says: “Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” 7

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
JR: This passage is about belief in transubstantiation and not about solemnity–external or otherwise–in liturgy.
JR:
Alphonsus Liguori considered reverence to begin in the heart. If one has the most beautiful liturgy in the world, but has a heart of stone, there is little reverence there.
Depends on what you mean by “there.” In an externally reverent mass, God is revered quite apart from the interior dispositions of individual parishioners.
Legalism is not a form of reverence.
True. And external reverence is not legalism.
Obedience is.
Would that include obedience to the rubrics?
For example, when you opne your post with “What you say is not true.” Where is the reverence there?
What exactly is irreverent about eelpis’s line, “What you say is not true”?
Our holy father Francis always taught us to speak to each person with a sense of reverence, regardless of who they are, because Jesus is there in each soul. Jesus is also in our soul waiting to love the other person.

This is the reverence that we draw from the liturgy and take back into the liturgy, the love of Christ to all.
While loving your fellow man through Christ is a good in and of itself, it is not the reverence due to God in the Mass.
Let me give you an example that’s a little difference, but may help here. We began speaking about the difficulties for you or any other person who loves the extraordinary form when they have no option but to attend the ordinary form for daily mass. The love that drives you to Christ in the Eucharist, every day, is the kind of reverence to which St. Alphonsus refers. There is a sublime love for Christ in the Eucharist in the heart of any person who seeks him daily.
Love and reverence, though potentially related, are two different acts, which should not be perceived as interchangeable.
While it would be better for all involved if the liturgy were celebrated according to all the rules of the GIRM, that fact that situations creep up that are out of compliance, doesn’t take away from the reverence that you bring to the celebration.
It does not take away from the reverence one intended to bring, but it most certainly can and does inhibit the reverence one actually gives. We are not disembodied spirits, unaffected by material realities.
Therefore, it doesn’t deprive you of the graces that are bound to be yours through your reverence in union with Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
You speak as though receiving graces is a completely private and subjective affair. This is not a Catholic notion. A mass that lacks objectively in reverence is bad for the faithful–by example certainly but also by the obfuscation of Grace.
 
JR: This passage is about belief in transubstantiation and not about solemnity–external or otherwise–in liturgy.

Depends on what you mean by “there.” In an externally reverent mass, God is revered quite apart from the interior dispositions of individual parishioners.

True. And external reverence is not legalism.

Would that include obedience to the rubrics?

What exactly is irreverent about eelpis’s line, “What you say is not true”?

While loving your fellow man through Christ is a good in and of itself, it is not the reverence due to God in the Mass.

Love and reverence, though potentially related, are two different acts, which should not be perceived as interchangeable.

It does not take away from the reverence one intended to bring, but it most certainly can and does inhibit the reverence one actually gives. We are not disembodied spirits, unaffected by material realities.

You speak as though receiving graces is a completely private and subjective affair. This is not a Catholic notion. A mass that lacks objectively in reverence is bad for the faithful–by example certainly but also by the obfuscation of Grace.
The perspective that I was trying to refer to was that of Francis of Assisi, for whom the externals of the liturgy were not as important as the theology of the Eucharist. He never imposed a high and low form of the liturgy on the friars.

In fact, at the time Pope Innocent III had several volumes which were used to celebrate the Gregorian mass which was not in use then. He gave them to Francis so that the ordained Brothers could fulfil their obligation to celebrate the liturgy. Francis found the books too bulky and had them copied into a one volume missal with some changes, such as the sermon in the language of the people and the omission of Gregorian chant, because he did not want his Brothers to celebrate liturgy (mass or hours) in the same manner as monks did.

It was a very simple form the Gregorian liturgy, often beautified by Laudas (not related to Lauds) which Francis wrote in Italian for the congregation to sing as hymns, the most famous one being the Canticle of the Sun and the Praises to the Queen of Heaven. It was never part of his theology that the externals of the liturgy were a means to grace, but the faith in the transubstantiated Eucharist. However, it was part of his theology that one approached the liturgy and the Eucharist with the most fervent and reverent heart and mind. This perspective is still in the Constitutions and Rule of the Franciscan family today.

This is the missal that St. Pius V later adapted for the use by secular clergy, because its original form was designed to be celebrated by religious brothers in solemn vows who were priests. St. Pius authorized secular priests to use it, but did not impose the revised missal on the mendicants or monastic orders.

St. Alphonsus statement is only one perspective of several perspectives regarding the liturgy. St. Bonaventure subscribed to the perspective of St. Francis, as did the Carmelites and the Dominicans until they had their own rites.

St. Alphonsus perspective, though worthy of respect and reflection is one of several in the Church through the centuries.

Fraternally,

JR
 
Bolding = mine
This subjective disposition which you refer to is exactly what we are saying when we refer to "when we refer to when we say, "that which is in your heart. The mass itself gives no more grace as all are infinite. The Church even teaches that if a priest is in mortal sin when offering the mass, that its graces are still infinitefor those attending. It is what you have in your heart that determines how much of this infinite gift you receive from the mass. The solemnity of the priest, the beauty of the mass can help dispose you to the reception of this gift of grace, which in itself is a participation in the divinity of God himself. That gift is finite in all masses. The amount you leave with is determined by your interior disposition.

There cannot be more “than just the Eucharist”. The Eucharist is the sum and substance of all that is Catholic. It is the MOST HOLY EUCHARIST, besides which there is nothing greater. What you are speaking of is finite language of man. Nothing more,nothing less.

By this statement, I do read that you believe each is infinite in merit and grace. therefore with all that we are saying, we seem to be in agreement as these two things cannot make that which is infinite any greater. .

That is because, they, in and of themselves, do not and cannot increase the merit of the mass, which is infinite. For those who prefer one form over the other, that predisposition may help each in hiis or her own way/ That is why Holy Mother Church has given us the option to attend whichever form we prefer.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
That’s just it Deacon. I’m not disputing “merit.” What I’m disputing is the prayers, which do matter. If they didn’t matter, they would have never been codified, they would have never been altered, and they would basically have no meaning.

So the Mass doesn’t express doctrine? It doesn’t teach us anything? It doesn’t say anything outside the Eucharist? These are the logical conclusions of your argument.

It’s not a “predisposition” to look at the different prayers and see that in one 3 or 4 articles of the faith are present, and in the equivalent in another form, only 1 is.

What you are arguing is that the Mass has no other essential function than the Eucharist, and that’s not true. The logical conclusion of your argument would mean that we could just strip the Mass down to the Eucharistic prayers, and leave it at that. You know that’s not a correct idea.

But if you aren’t interested in looking at the two different prayers, and want to fortify yourself in the status quo, then you won’t be able to provide any perspective on the crisis.
 
Dear brother JR,

This is so true. Any point of reference for reverence must start from within. The problem I see that some Trads have is that their idea of reverence is controlled by the external. They go around looking for what is wrong with what OTHERS are doing, instead of keeping a focus on what is going on between God and themselves alone during a Liturgy.

Instead of contemplating God internally, they focus on the external.

I guess there are those who will say, “how do you know what goes on inside me?” I would respond, “I don’t have to guess - YOU already let us know that certain externals disturb your perception of the holiness of a Mass.”

Blessings,
Marduk
Conservatives can be quite bickering too when it comes to the rubrics of the mass.

There’s no dictonomy between the “inside” and what goes on on the outside. The good interior dispositions of the priest and the faithful are prerequisites for recieving graces, but it would be bad if the interior adoration would not be seen on the outside in the rites.

The sacrifice of Mass is objectively infinite in merit but the graces we can recieve from it are dependent on our interior dispositions and the reverence with which the rites are celebrated.
 
The perspective that I was trying to refer to was that of Francis of Assisi, for whom the externals of the liturgy were not as important as the theology of the Eucharist. He never imposed a high and low form of the liturgy on the friars.

In fact, at the time Pope Innocent III had several volumes which were used to celebrate the Gregorian mass which was not in use then. He gave them to Francis so that the ordained Brothers could fulfil their obligation to celebrate the liturgy. Francis found the books too bulky and had them copied into a one volume missal with some changes, such as the sermon in the language of the people and the omission of Gregorian chant, because he did not want his Brothers to celebrate liturgy (mass or hours) in the same manner as monks did.

It was a very simple form the Gregorian liturgy, often beautified by Laudas (not related to Lauds) which Francis wrote in Italian for the congregation to sing as hymns, the most famous one being the Canticle of the Sun and the Praises to the Queen of Heaven. It was never part of his theology that the externals of the liturgy were a means to grace, but the faith in the transubstantiated Eucharist. However, it was part of his theology that one approached the liturgy and the Eucharist with the most fervent and reverent heart and mind. This perspective is still in the Constitutions and Rule of the Franciscan family today.

This is the missal that St. Pius V later adapted for the use by secular clergy, because its original form was designed to be celebrated by religious brothers in solemn vows who were priests. St. Pius authorized secular priests to use it, but did not impose the revised missal on the mendicants or monastic orders.

St. Alphonsus statement is only one perspective of several perspectives regarding the liturgy. St. Bonaventure subscribed to the perspective of St. Francis, as did the Carmelites and the Dominicans until they had their own rites.

St. Alphonsus perspective, though worthy of respect and reflection is one of several in the Church through the centuries.

Fraternally,

JR
St Alphonsus is a doctor of the Church.
 
St Alphonsus is a doctor of the Church.
We’re not juxtaposing one saint against another. That would be totally inappropriate. While one group would argue that St. Alphonsus is a Doctor of the Church St. Bonaventure, who is also a Doctor of the Church argued that St. Francis was The Mirror of Perfection and it was accepted by the Church and thus he is called on the Solemnity of St. Francis. St. Pius V described him as the saint of saints. St. Pius X referred to him as the Perfect Christian.

But what makes both men very important to the Church along with others who have taken up the task of working on the Church’s liturgy through the centuries is not that one is superior to the other in knowledge or faith, but that each of them comes to the celebration of the Eucharist through a very unique path. Both paths are valid in the eyes of the Holy Mother Church.

For this reason, the Church has never taken a position in favor of the one and against the other.

For example, while the Church after St. Pius V demanded that secular priests celebrate the Gregorian mass, it specifically left his encyclical open ended for religious orders. The only religious who were bound to the celebration of the Gregorian mass were those who belonged to religious congregations, which St. Alphonsus was. He was not an exempt religious, because he was never in solemn vows. The Congregation of the Redeemer makes simple vows. When it comes to liturgy they follow the general diections of the Church. Such is not the case for religious orders.

The reason for this is because many of the founders of religious orders, such as St. Benedict, St. Francis, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Dominic and the Canons Regular of St. Augustine already had a form of the Roman liturgy in place for their community that preceeded the Gregorian mass and Breviary and the Church deemed that it was fully efficacious.

Now, if the simplicity of a Dominican, Franciscan or Carmelite liturgy and Divine Office is as efficacious as the High Mass of the Gregorian form, that would mean that the solemnity of the celebration is not the essence of grace, but the disposition of the soul to be nurtured by the Word of God and the Eucharist. The prayerfulness of the liturgy sheds grace on the soul that is prepared to receive it, as does the proclamation of the Word and the Eucharistic sacrifice. Prayer, Word and Sacrifice are present in all forms of Catholic liturgy, Eastern and Western.

Take for example, the Church would never have allowed the Benedictines to celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours with great solemnity while the Franciscans never chant, always read, never recite the Liturgy of the Hours in choir, but always before the Blessed Sacrament. Nor would the Church have allowed the Carthusians the celebration of both the Liturgy of the Hours and the Liturgy of the Mass in huts, to this day, rather than in a proper monastic choir and Church.

If we look at what the Church allows and the different degrees of external solemnity, we find there are differences. Let’s take it one step further. Our Eastern brothers and sisters celebrate an even more solemn liturgy of the Eucharist and Liturgy of the Hours than we have in the West.

The Church is a most loving and protective mother. She would no allow such differences for so many centuries, were she not convinced that all the subtle and the not so subtle difference (such as East and West) or EF and OF were fully beneficial to the soul that is prepared to benefit from the liturgy of the Eucharist and the Hours.

When speaking liturgy we cannot separate the two, for both are the work of the Church.

The Church is a good and holy mother. Liike all mothers, she protects her children. Like in any family, there are moments in history and personalities who make different contributions, but this does not make one contribution superior to that of another.

If we have a child who is an artist and another who is a brain surgeon, are they the same? No. Is one’s contribution to society superior to that of the other? No. The world needs both beauty and healing.

This is the case that we began with when speaking of how St. Francis put together the original Roman Missal and how St. Alphonsus comments on the low mass and high mass. Both have made a contribution to the Church. Are they the same? No. Is one contribution superior to the other? No.

St. Francis contribution comes from his personal relationship with Christ through Scripture. St. Alphonsus contribution comes from his personal relationship with Christ through reason. Two different approaches to Christ yield two perspectives, but just as scripture and reason are not in conflict, neither are the two perspectives. Neither saint would pull rank on the other. That’s why the Church allows both to stand.

When we cite a saint, we must make sure that we know their life well. Their words alone, without the context of their lives and knowledge of their journey can easily lead us to misunderstand them.

We don’t want to do with the saints what Protestants do with the scriputures, start pulling citations out of context. That does more harm than if we left it alone. Trust me. I know what I’m speaking about.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I not juxtaposing anything. St Alphonsus is a doctor of the Church and a Saint. What he says in regard to the mass is not contradicting what St Thomas or St Bonaventure says. It’s part of the faith of the Church. Not everything can be boiled down to “mere” essentials, if it’s done the thing often stops having meaning.
 
I not juxtaposing anything. St Alphonsus is a doctor of the Church and a Saint. What he says in regard to the mass is not contradicting what St Thomas or St Bonaventure says. It’s part of the faith of the Church. Not everything can be boiled down to “mere” essentials, if it’s done the thing often stops having meaning.
But Bonaventure was also a Doctor of the Church and a saint. He was very grounded in Fracis’ perspective of liturgy. In fact, that’s the only form of liturgy that he was allowed to celebrate, because it was his religious community.

I’m sure that neither Bonaventure nor Alphonsus would debate the benefits of one form over the other. Being saints, they respected what worked for both sides of the aisle.

The secular priests and congregation priests had a form for them, and the religious order priests had a form to them.

That’s all I’m saying. To say that this is right, because Alphonsus said it, is not necessarily correct. Because Alphonsus was not speaking about what was already in place by the mendicants. That was not even on his agenda.

Not being a mendicant, we know very little how well he even understood the cenobitic life. We know that he must have read the rules of Benedict, Carmel, Francis and Dominic. But this was not his world and he was not speaking to that world. Again, as a saint, he probably had great respect for that world.

So the answer is no, we cannot say that Alphonsus is right because he’s a Doctor and Francis is wrong because he was a Brother. That’s not the way the Church teaches it. The Church has allowed both spiritualities and both forms of the liturgy to co-exist for centuries.

You have to understand, the Church never pits one saint against another, especially if they are saints that have made very large contributions to the Church. She respects both. The manner in which she handles these situations is through silence.

The Church has never told the Franciscans that their way of celebrating liturgy was not allowed. Nor did she ever tell the rest of the clergy who were no in solemn vows, that they have to celebrate the liturgy the way the Franciscans, Benedictines and Carmelites did it.

Starting with Pius V, the Church always kept quiet about those exceptions. My suggestion is that we too take the example of the Church and let it go. These differences have been good for the Church.

Both the Franciscan movement and the Ligourian movement have been good for the Church. Let’s let them continue to be good for the Church.

JR 🙂
 
But Bonaventure was also a Doctor of the Church and a saint. He was very grounded in Fracis’ perspective of liturgy. In fact, that’s the only form of liturgy that he was allowed to celebrate, because it was his religious community.

I’m sure that neither Bonaventure nor Alphonsus would debate the benefits of one form over the other. Being saints, they respected what worked for both sides of the aisle.

The secular priests and congregation priests had a form for them, and the religious order priests had a form to them.

That’s all I’m saying. To say that this is right, because Alphonsus said it, is not necessarily correct. Because Alphonsus was not speaking about what was already in place by the mendicants. That was not even on his agenda.

Not being a mendicant, we know very little how well he even understood the cenobitic life. We know that he must have read the rules of Benedict, Carmel, Francis and Dominic. But this was not his world and he was not speaking to that world. Again, as a saint, he probably had great respect for that world.

So the answer is no, we cannot say that Alphonsus is right because he’s a Doctor and Francis is wrong because he was a Brother. That’s not the way the Church teaches it. The Church has allowed both spiritualities and both forms of the liturgy to co-exist for centuries.

You have to understand, the Church never pits one saint against another, especially if they are saints that have made very large contributions to the Church. She respects both. The manner in which she handles these situations is through silence.

The Church has never told the Franciscans that their way of celebrating liturgy was not allowed. Nor did she ever tell the rest of the clergy who were no in solemn vows, that they have to celebrate the liturgy the way the Franciscans, Benedictines and Carmelites did it.

Starting with Pius V, the Church always kept quiet about those exceptions. My suggestion is that we too take the example of the Church and let it go. These differences have been good for the Church.

Both the Franciscan movement and the Ligourian movement have been good for the Church. Let’s let them continue to be good for the Church.

JR 🙂
Exactly my sentiments.🙂
 
But if you aren’t interested in looking at the two different prayers, and want to fortify yourself in the status quo, then you won’t be able to provide any perspective on the crisis.
bolding mine

I think you just summed up all our conversations. The Novus Ordo mass** IS NOT** a crisis. If you agree that it is not a crisis, it, would be and is, of its own merit, infinite in benefit. This is what I am saying. The only other alternative would be that is not. I do not believe, I cannot believe that is what you are saying.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
But if you aren’t interested in looking at the two different prayers, and want to fortify yourself in the status quo, then you won’t be able to provide any perspective on the crisis.
The only “perspective” that matters, is the perspective of the Church.

The Novus Ordo IS the “Ordinary Form” of the Mass. Period. It is equal to the EF in the eyes of the Church.

The rest is just background noise from dissidents.
 
The only “perspective” that matters, is the perspective of the Church.

The Novus Ordo IS the “Ordinary Form” of the Mass. Period. It is equal to the EF in the eyes of the Church.

The rest is just background noise from dissidents.
👍
 
Dear brother eelpis,
The sacrifice of Mass is objectively infinite in merit but the graces we can recieve from it are dependent on our interior dispositions and the reverence with which the rites are celebrated.
I cannot agree with the highlighed portion above. Let’s take, for instance, a priest who leaves the altar and greets people during the Sign of Peace.
  1. THAT ACTION is not going to reduce the grace of the Mass itself. If my interior disposition is correct, I will receive all the graces that Mass is intended to have.
  2. The only time such an action will reduce my reception of grace is if I look at it and let it bother me. For at that point, I am no longer focused on Christ (what’s going on internally between Him and me during the Mass), but I am instead focusing on the priest’s actions. If he is doing something wrong, and according to the rubrics he is, THAT IS BETWEEN HIM AND GOD (i.e., his own conscience). I just need to focus during Mass what is going on between ME AND GOD.
Blessings,
Marduk
 
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