Fifty Years of the Catholic Charismatic Movement: 1967-2017
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commenter
Guest
This is interesting. Can you share some references to this?
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anon10271182
Guest
In the words of Monsignor Charles Pope:.
“We ought to consider, What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (and with fire)? In the first place we must be careful to indicate, right from the beginning, that Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not distinct, different, or later than our reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. Rather it is the unfolding and deepening experience of what the Sacrament of Baptism (and Confirmation) have effected in us.”
That unfolding and deepening may be (I’d say often is) gradual and incremental; it may come in silence and solitude, it may come in consecration to Mary or praying the Rosary, or even through regular assistance at the Tridentine Latin Mass–or all of the above.
For some it may come through participation in Charismatic Movement events and charismatic-style Mass. If the Vatican says so, great. The point is, everyone grows in holiness and experiences the actions of the Holy Spirit in different ways.
“We ought to consider, What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (and with fire)? In the first place we must be careful to indicate, right from the beginning, that Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not distinct, different, or later than our reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. Rather it is the unfolding and deepening experience of what the Sacrament of Baptism (and Confirmation) have effected in us.”
That unfolding and deepening may be (I’d say often is) gradual and incremental; it may come in silence and solitude, it may come in consecration to Mary or praying the Rosary, or even through regular assistance at the Tridentine Latin Mass–or all of the above.
For some it may come through participation in Charismatic Movement events and charismatic-style Mass. If the Vatican says so, great. The point is, everyone grows in holiness and experiences the actions of the Holy Spirit in different ways.
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anon10271182
Guest
Interesting. As an adherent of the Traditional Latin Mass I don’t expect it will affect me one way or another. Though I may start making the long drive to my FSSP parish more than twice a month if nearby OF parishes where I assist become more charismatic in worship style.
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Lost4words
Guest
50 years since pentacostalism entered the church…
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Augustinian
Guest
Not surprising that it the charismatic movement started here in Pittsburgh. Renowned Pentecostal evangelist and faith healer Kathryn Kuhlman was based here and she was quite friendly and cooperative with Catholics including priests here in Pittsburgh.
A lot of people may think and evangelical and pentecostal ministers were always at odds with the Church- this is just not true.
Kuhlman was an energetic, thin gal with a lot of urgency and had a lot of viewers of her TV program.
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EvangelistVictor
Guest
Actually the Pentecostal movement started 2000+ years ago in an upper rook in Jerusalem with the Apostles on the day of Pentecost that we also celebrate yearly at mass. Don’t confuse the modern day movement as something totally new.
The modern day Pentecostal movement started in 1906 at Azusa Street in Los Angels headed by William Seymour, considered by many as the father of todays movement. I went to the actual location as a school trip during my undergraduate studies.
William J. Seymour - Wikipedia
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Augustinian
Guest
Thanks for the additional information, but I was talking in reference to the Catholic charismatic movement. Of course, Ms. Kuhlman originally came from the mid south area where pentecostalism made a lot of inroads long before the Catholic Church took to it
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EvangelistVictor
Guest
Here’s a nice breakdown by Fr. Terry Donahue.
Watch “The Baptism in Holy Spirit, Catholic Charismatic Renewal, & The New Evangelization” on YouTube
Watch “The Baptism in Holy Spirit, Catholic Charismatic Renewal, & The New Evangelization” on YouTube
po18guy
Well-known member
The CCR is only helping to reclaim what belonged to the Church in the first place. The Holy Spirit and His charisms had been neglected and ignored. We have all heard that the Holy Spirit is the forgotten member of the Trinity.
If He is not invited to speak or act in Catholicism, he speaks elsewhere to shame Catholics.
Full story, bro’
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Reuben_J
Guest
Not sure what you want actually.
I can clarify about the position of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the Vatican though.
At present, the offices of the Renewal are the ICCRS (International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services) which oversees and serves the Charismatic Renewal movements worldwide in the Catholic Church.
The other is the Fraternity of the Catholic Charismatic Covenant Communities (FCCCC), which is a body for the association of Covenant Communities and which has Private Association of the Pontifical Rights for the laity.
Both have their offices in Rome.
FCCCC, an international body, had their meeting every year attended by their representatives/leaders, most of the times in Rome but other times may be in one of the member countries. Those meetings include audiences with the Popes or where he would address them. Some of the quotes from the various Popes by posters here were during such meetings, with either ICRRS or FCCCC.
In the last two years there have been some proposed changes to the structure of the CCR as envisioned by the present Holy Father, where he desires the CCR to be under one body for the whole Catholic Church. Work is underway to prepare this, and as always this will takes time to materialise especially to prepare documents for the merger.
This would mean there will be no more ICCRS and FCCCC but they will merge under one umbrella, ‘Charis’ a term that has been chosen.
This proposal is confirmed in the just completed meeting of the FCCCC in Augusta, Georgia. The announcement for this new structure is probably as early as September this year and implemented sometimes next year.
The big news is the merger but it also means to open itself to all the Charismatic movements, which was not done before this. In other word, FCCCC would be no more as for the exclusivity of Covenant Communities but encompasses other Charismatic movements.
Once implemented, it will be given official recognition as a Public Association with Pontifical Right of the laity instead of private, as it is now. The former will therefore be a Dicastery of the Roman Curia and therefore a part of the Church that binds on all the local ordinaries.
I am just pre-emptying this news but you can watch this space in the coming months.
What is important to know is the mind of the Holy Fathers that sees the Renewal as the current grace of the Holy Spirit. It will come a time when the Church will be fully renewed and that the Charismatic movements have served their purpose, they would be just part of the Church.
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Reuben_J
Guest
The usage of the term ‘Charismatic’ in my opinion is a misnomer, which seems to mean as loud music and liturgical abuses, by the people who use it.
One can say that Charismatic is more of a spirituality like any spirituality in the Church. More importantly it is about Renewal of the faith of the person concerned.
You will find a Charismatic, perhaps sitting next to you in the pew attending daily traditional Latin mass.
There is much misunderstanding and presumption about this unfortunately.
One can say that Charismatic is more of a spirituality like any spirituality in the Church. More importantly it is about Renewal of the faith of the person concerned.
You will find a Charismatic, perhaps sitting next to you in the pew attending daily traditional Latin mass.
There is much misunderstanding and presumption about this unfortunately.
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EvangelistVictor
Guest
Wouldn’t go as far as to shame Catholics, but its like when God used a donkey to speak to Balaam in the OT. When we shut the door on something God is doing, His Spirit will search for a soul that says, “Use me Lord”!
Jesus told the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They could have gone home to their previous careers and disobeyed Jesus words. But they didn’t, and the Spirit poured out on them, and they changed the world.
Will you be that person that ready to receive all that God has for you? His outpouring Holy Spirit is waiting to be released in your life today. Will you be willing to say yes to Jesus and say, “Fill me like you did the Apostles on Pentecost!”
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anon10271182
Guest
“More importantly it is about Renewal of the faith of the person concerned.”
So if we broaden the definition, any Catholic anywhere can be a “charismatic.” Fascinating!
So if we broaden the definition, any Catholic anywhere can be a “charismatic.” Fascinating!
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anon10271182
Guest
Thanks–I think He just did, in the hour and a half I spent revising poems. In fact, I can’t really write my best stuff entirely on my own, through intellectual effort alone–there’s always some degree of surrender to inspiration (from the Latin, spiritus). Particularly seems to happen when I’m writing about some of my favorite subjects, like Rosary Mysteries or angels or Mary or the Quinque Viae.
Ad majorem Dei gloriam!
Ad majorem Dei gloriam!
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po18guy
Well-known member
Here is how I see it: Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The Apostles and disciples were shouting “Hosanna to the Son of David!” The Pharisees were offended, calling on Jesus to silence the shouting. Our Lord told them, “If they remain silent, these very stones will cry out!”
Same with the Holy Spirit. If He was neglected in the Catholic Church - and He most certainly has been - He will “cry out” elsewhere. In this case, the Pentecostal movement.
However, He rightfully speaks and acts within the Catholic Church.
My default: for those who are not attracted to the charismatic movement, do you know what your charisms are? We will be called to account, and soon. Ref: Matthew 25:14-30. “Talents” which produce a yield can be seen as our charisms - but we must know what they are before we can use them!
Same with the Holy Spirit. If He was neglected in the Catholic Church - and He most certainly has been - He will “cry out” elsewhere. In this case, the Pentecostal movement.
However, He rightfully speaks and acts within the Catholic Church.
My default: for those who are not attracted to the charismatic movement, do you know what your charisms are? We will be called to account, and soon. Ref: Matthew 25:14-30. “Talents” which produce a yield can be seen as our charisms - but we must know what they are before we can use them!
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anon10271182
Guest
They held a seminar recently in a local parish for those wanting to learn about their charisms, what they might be. I didn’t go–I already know and when you know, you know. Deo gratias!
po18guy
Well-known member
Even the hierarchy - those who need shaming. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin - including the sin of neglecting Him. If Saint Catherine of Sienna could shame Pope Leo XI into moving back to Rome, then the HS can certainly shame whom He pleases.
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EvangelistVictor
Guest
Personally, I think the charisms like speaking in tongues scare people. I didn’t speak in tongues till about after 8 years of being filled with the Holy Spirit.
I think the Churches emphasis should not be on these “charisms” initially, but on the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in all people lives first. The “charisms (gifts of the Holy Spirit)” manifest themselves as God desired to each person accordingly. Some might speak in tongues on the first day filled, or another might start prophesying instead. Another might have visions. Another the gift of healing, etc… Each according to what God purposes.
> 1 Corinthians 12 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
> Spiritual Gifts
> 12 Now concerning spiritual gifts,[a] brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were enticed and led astray to idols that could not speak. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
**> **
> 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.
I think the Churches emphasis should not be on these “charisms” initially, but on the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in all people lives first. The “charisms (gifts of the Holy Spirit)” manifest themselves as God desired to each person accordingly. Some might speak in tongues on the first day filled, or another might start prophesying instead. Another might have visions. Another the gift of healing, etc… Each according to what God purposes.
> 1 Corinthians 12 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
> Spiritual Gifts
> 12 Now concerning spiritual gifts,[a] brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were enticed and led astray to idols that could not speak. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
**> **
> 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.
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Lost4words
Guest
I think you know what i mean
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